Mini Normal 1873 (Game Over)

[mastina]

Anyway,
Modding PT.
Mafia PT. (Lexa's last post in there is pretty humorous.)
Dead Thread.
Spoilered Dead Thread.

Review thread. (To be released by Nexus at some future point. You'll have to ask him as to when.)

[PranaDevil]

Overall a really fun game, and an enjoyable return to the site for me.

A few things i wasn't a fan of, which i mentioned for discussion purposes, and also possible future changes.

Too many power roles, waaaay too many power roles for town. 3 already seemed OP, 4 was crazy. I'm not sure where that was deemed normal, but it definitely didn't feel "normal" with how it went. I'm all for crazy stuff going on, (hence my /in for oddrole), but my aim was to be in a nice, relatively basic game for my first one back, and this was anything but. Definitely feel like it shouldn't have been in the normal queue.

And to respond to mastina's post above, the reason it was OP is that, yes, while Lexa's JOAT could hit some of them, we basically were three goons, because Lexa's JOAT shots rely on us knowing who the other roles are, where they are firing, and with what. Having a ninja kill is fine, but a one shot where we have no clue if it's essentially being wasted means it's actually rather a weak shot, ditto with the strongman. Yes if we know there's a doc and it's protecting a specific slot we can override, but there was only a tiny chance that was ever going to happen, thus in reality it was two goons, and a one shot roleblocker, against 4 town PRs, three of which had investigative powers and could potentially confirm each other.

Too much mod chatter as well. There were times I felt like perhaps mastina was giving too much info about things, and the pissing about from everyone to get page tops... that did legitimately annoy me somewhat as it stops being part of the game at that point. (Ditto for what I called Alisae's "shit posting", regardless of alignment, I stand by the fact that we don't need that stuff outside of RVS).

Good stuff was regular vote counts (if need be, edit a players post, or just stick them in anywhere, we're all big enough to ISO the mod if we need to), and barring the known issue of being away at weekends (which is fair enough) mastina was usually on the ball quite often to sort stuff. (Game end not permitting... )

Player base was fun, barring the one obvious issue with Garmr, who, if he ever plays the game again, needs to understand that nobody is required to take his word for anything, and the entire game is based around working out who is most probable scum in any situation.

karnos needs to not hoist his own lynch quite so quick when he's scum in future too, I mean, my god man, day 1?!

I'm sure other stuff will come up when I think of it, or when people read the scum thread, but regardless of anything I said in here, I mean no ill will to anyone, play to the role and all that jazz after all.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Prana, why did you challenge me when I said I wanted to be doc'd night one?

[All Alone]

good game

well played Prana and especially Lexa! surviving two day phases after you got caught fakeclaiming VT is actually incredibly impressive

thanks for modding, mastina

[mastina]

Like I said.
This game is an example of standard site balance.
This is what most games on the site SHOULD have. (Or close thereto.)

It has been shown, time and time again, the town needs power roles in order to win the game--absolutely NEED them. It has been shown through many threads across time, countless reviewers having gathered the data to show, optimum town power is 3-4 town roles. (Incidentally, me including All Alone's JOAT was not a guarantee--when the review thread is released, you'll note that I basically said: "I will have three JOATs if you think that is closer to balanced, or four JOATs if you think THAT is closer to balanced, because it'd be really really close either way". Unanimously, the reviewers voted for four rather than three.) Not 1. Not 2. Those are the numbers you need in a MICRO. For a mini, you absolutely REQUIRE 3-4 essentially. That's the site standard, because that's what towns require. Less than 3 is universally scumsided, even if your two roles happen to be cop-doc. More than 4, sure, swings towards townsided. But 3-4 is the butter zone of balance.

Furthermore, I actually violated one of my own guidelines as a reviewer this game, albeit accidentally. You had a ninja shot which basically negated the power of a tracker. I've gone on record to say that ninjas to counter trackers are just plain unfair. (This was because in an iteration of the setup prior to me entering review, it was a Watcher/Voyeur/Motion Detector Joat + the Cop-Joat + the Doc-Joat, and when I realized how much of a hilariously bad idea that combo was even with a scum strongman-ninja JOAT I altered the setup to almost its current form, so you having a ninja shot was a relic I accidentally forgot about.)

This basically made your role tailored to all the town's roles: you had the perfect counter to them, something I am usually adamantly against as a reviewer. (Also, as I noted: you KNEW there was a tracker JOAT in the game, via having a ninja shot. You KNEW there was a protection-JOAT in the game, via having a strongman shot. You might not have known they were JOATs, but when All Alone flipped JOAT, and Gin claimed JOAT, it wasn't too hard for you to figure out that with your OWN JOAT, the game's roles all had a theme to them. This gave you insider knowledge as to the setup composition WELL before the town had a clue.) This game would have been RIDICULOUSLY scumsided if it had been only three JOATs against your JOAT. As-is, if this game was imbalanced in any direction it would be towards scum, not towards the town.

As for confirming information: I did nothing of the sort. I answered questions about my process which were public information, readily available to any who would ask. All the information I divulged is readily available. I am obliged to answer about how my modding process works. (For instance, prod rules.) I am obliged to answer about how roles interact. I am obligated to answer about how a role which could be in the game would work--these are no guarantees those roles are actually in the game, because I make it my policy to hold answer for EVERY possible role in the game I can think of. (And as a Normal reviewer, I tend to have fairly good knowledge of the roles we have which're Normal, and aside from one or two disagreements with how the Normal role works, I have their mechanics in Normal games basically memorized.)

If a player assumes I confirm knowledge that I am not in fact confirming, that is their prerogative. They do so mistakenly. If their assumption is correct, then it is right-for-the-wrong-reasons. It just as easily could be an assumption which is incorrect, in which it is wrong because it is wrong reasoning. I gave information as it was pertinent. Any information given was given at prompting. It did nothing but clarify stances on what was already public information.

[mastina]

thanks for modding, mastina

<3

[Titus]

Ty for modding.

Didn't you also write a thing on cops and lylo? How you always lynch a cop the day before lylo?

[PranaDevil]

Prana, why did you challenge me when I said I wanted to be doc'd night one?

Buggered if I know. My memory is shit at the best of times, so I legitimately don't remember this, and short of a re-read of the entire section it would be impossible to get my view point back. I'm sure I had some legitimate reason for it at the time though... that or I was tired and not typing properly.

And mastina, I guess it's entirely probably that in the 3+ years I've been away the site meta for balance has shifted. Which is entirely fair enough at that point, things change and move on. I guess I'm still more used to normal meaning a more basic game, minimal PRs, on both sides, and scum hunting being the order of the game. Partly because I feel if you need to rely on power roles to win a game for you, you deserve to lose in the first place. I'd be happy in a totally vanilla type game just as much as I am in a nutty as hell role madness type. As my initial aim was to start with a more or less vanilla type game, having 5 JOATs going round the place definitely didn't fit my "normal" view, but as I say, that does come from well over 3 years ago.

After reading the dead threads, I'm with mhsmith0 with the answering questions stuff, but again that does kinda boil down to personal preference. When I've modded I let the players get on with it, and only step in if required.

But yeah, overall regardless of differences of opinion regarding balance or styles of answering questions, a very fun game. Top marks mastina.

[PranaDevil]

Oh yeah... for the record, I was attempting to hint at myself being Vengeful, such as saying I didn't have a "fun" PR, and in the very same post, commenting about karnos' fake claim of vengeful... and then later on suggesting I could catch scum easily in LyLo with a vengeful shot.

All that crumbing, and it all went to waste... *sniff*

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

WHY DOES SCUM THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO CLAIM VENGEFUL

[Titus]

Devil, I like normal prs and c++ but optimal action becomes too predictable.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

It's an autolynch.. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Titus]

WHY DOES SCUM THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO CLAIM VENGEFUL

I know my next fake as VT.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I mean it's entirely the reason I thought Karnos was town because scum doesn't say, please lynch me at the end of the game. It's suicide for the slot

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

It did teach me, scum, will always, do something stupid, and most likely get away with it.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Ya know, one of these days I'm going to get a LyLo right

[mastina]

Didn't you also write a thing on cops and lylo? How you always lynch a cop the day before lylo?

I did write a thing about cops, but not of that sort.
My advice as a cop is to target players unlikely to be nightkilled, but who you value as strong, meaningful players likely to be of significance: to make a strong player conftown if you get an innocent, or to take out one of the scum's strongest players if you get a guilty. Gin did fairly well in this regard. Gin also used the Neapolitan shot well: with two claimed VTs (Garmr, Lexa), Gin used the Neapolitan shot to get a guilty on Lexa.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I DID USE YOUR COP THEORY CORRECTLY!

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

although, the lynch part, yeahhh I need more reading

[LicketyQuickety]

Town played like shit this game. Prana played well, however.

[Titus]

Ya know, one of these days I'm going to get a LyLo right

Tbh, I meant every word. Wonder why you are there.

I had an advantage that I already knew that the moment I had my pm.

I asked the mod for the same PM gated to night 4.

[mastina]

AND IT WAS JUST ABOUT THE ONLY THING YOU USED CORRECTLY!

[Titus]

mastina told me hahaha fakeclaims for town, nope!

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

AND IT WAS JUST ABOUT THE ONLY THING YOU USED CORRECTLY!

Oh no, I used the VCA correctly and even agreed with Titus without realizing it, and then lynching Titus even tho I came to her conclusion

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I still don't understand why you checked me :/