Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[MadCrawdad]

vote: justinplayfair

, it's obviously a take off of 'Johnny Fairplay', and I just ain't a fan...

[MadCrawdad]

MadCrawdad,

You know, this is the second time someone here linked my name to that reality show buffoon. My name is taken from a character played by George C Scott (see avatar), in a movie called They Might Be Giants (see sig), in which he believed he was Sherlock Holmes (see funny hat and pipe). Please vote me for being too thematically consistent or being a movie geek instead of your current icky reason. Thank you.

unvote, vote: justinplayfair

for dissing reality show buffoons everywhere...

[MadCrawdad]

Unvote

C'mon, there's no point to a random phase when we've got a night's info to work with.

So, from the descriptions, Timmytuttut was killed by the serial killer, and CKD was killed by the Mafia. I think we can presume the SK kill was picked at random, as he has as little info to work with as the town does, but the CKD kill was deliberate -- at least one person in the Mafia has been in games with him and knows his playstyle could be dangerous to the Mafia, especially in an open game.

So, how many players here have played a game with CKD before?

I was in newbie 458 with CKD... I was scum, he was a vanilla townie. I hammered him on Day 1.

[MadCrawdad]

but that's the thing. It had to be deliberate to take the most analytical person out of the game on night 0.

Spacecase, I'm assuming that you're not really familiar w/ CKD. Why would you say that CKD was the 'most' analytical person in the game?

Below are a couple of posts that referenced his abilities: one says that he 'could be dangerous to the mafia', the other says 'he is analytical and stuff.'

I'm not seeing where anyone said he was necessarily the most analytical player in the game. Where'd you come up with that assumption?

Unvote

C'mon, there's no point to a random phase when we've got a night's info to work with.

So, from the descriptions, Timmytuttut was killed by the serial killer, and CKD was killed by the Mafia. I think we can presume the SK kill was picked at random, as he has as little info to work with as the town does, but the CKD kill was deliberate -- at least one person in the Mafia has been in games with him and knows his playstyle could be dangerous to the Mafia, especially in an open game.

So, how many players here have played a game with CKD before?

I've been in nearly every game with CKD.

CKD needs to die after the Baby Too Much Scum, in which sCumKD endgamed me!

Anyway, the point is that he is a good choice for a nightkill as he is analytical and stuff.

I'm surprised Vollkan wasn't killed as vollkan is CK^2 + Text.

Maybe the scum like text?

[MadCrawdad]

unvote

Still no word from Six Aces. Perhaps sis advised him to lay low?

FoS: Six Aces

[MadCrawdad]

vote: Six Aces

[/quote]
Well... I was really hoping I wouldn't have to do this, but it is looking like you guys actually believe him. I'm the doc... You are now probably thinking something along the lines of: [sarcasm]"Wow I didn't expect that..."[/sarcasm]. But I really hope you guys will listen to the truth, instead of believing a newbie who thinks he can get away with a false-claim on Day 1.[/quote]

I think it was apparent that folks were strongly considering the cop claim before your initial response... If you had really been hoping that you didn't need to role claim, I would have expected a stronger initial response to the cop claim.

[MadCrawdad]

EBWOP

unvote

The vote for Six Aces in my most recent post was in error... Was actually part of a quote that I had pulled then omitted.

I do suspect that Six Aces is likely scum, but would like to see a vote count before voting.

[MadCrawdad]

My point, Shteven, is that you had no reason to be thinking about it. It's possible for a townie to think it, but why would you? It doesn't do us any good to think about, therefore why bother? However, for scum, thinking about whether the cop will be protected is high on the priority list.

Why would somebody have to be scum just to be thinking of possibilities as to why a person claiming cop wasn't nightkilled? The question was posed, 'Why are you still alive?' to JG... I immediately started running scenarios in my head as to why the claimed cop might still be alive.

How, as you say, could this not do us any good to think about?

[MadCrawdad]

I already said, I was more suspicious of the way he worded it, not the fact that he was thinking it. I didn't really explain it in my first post, but oh well. My mistake.

Not really wanting to beat a dead horse here, but saying you didn't fully explain it is an understatement. Here's your follow-up where you specifically say that he was scummy for even thinking it... Totally impossible to misinterpret, wouldn't you agree?

My point, Shteven, is that you had no reason to be thinking about it. It's possible for a townie to think it, but why would you? It doesn't do us any good to think about, therefore why bother? However, for scum, thinking about whether the cop will be protected is high on the priority list.

[MadCrawdad]

I usually in other games have stated that a person hasn't had a counter claim (which in retrospect was stupid as there is a possiblity of more then one cop) so therefore Jesse claim seemed valid. When you stated about people not counter claiming I agreed because Six Aces already claimed cop and no other person should claim at that point since one was obviously lying.

Even if it wasn't obvious to you that one of them was lying, wouldn't you agree, that any counter claim (assuming it was legit) on Day 1 could ultimately prove disatrous for the town?

[MadCrawdad]

I usually in other games have stated that a person hasn't had a counter claim (which in retrospect was stupid as there is a possiblity of more then one cop) so therefore Jesse claim seemed valid. When you stated about people not counter claiming I agreed because Six Aces already claimed cop and no other person should claim at that point since one was obviously lying.

Even if it wasn't obvious to you that one of them was lying, wouldn't you agree, that any counter claim (assuming it was legit) on Day 1 could ultimately prove disatrous for the town?

@ farside22

I posted this and you kind of zipped past it. Granted it may not have been completely clear that I was asking it of you, so would you mind touching on it now? Thanks.

[MadCrawdad]

I usually in other games have stated that a person hasn't had a counter claim (which in retrospect was stupid as there is a possiblity of more then one cop) so therefore Jesse claim seemed valid. When you stated about people not counter claiming I agreed because Six Aces already claimed cop and no other person should claim at that point since one was obviously lying.

Even if it wasn't obvious to you that one of them was lying, wouldn't you agree, that any counter claim (assuming it was legit) on Day 1 could ultimately prove disatrous for the town?

@ farside22

I posted this and you kind of zipped past it. Granted it may not have been completely clear that I was asking it of you, so would you mind touching on it now? Thanks.

Sorry about that. Well in this set up yes. In most set ups no. Usually in games I've been in there is only one cop. If someone is stupid enough to counter claim that means that one person is scum and the other is the cop.

After six Aces claimed doctor there was no need to counter claim because between Jess and Six someone was obviously lying

. Six tried to lie in order to make people wonder about Jess, but he could have done it to try and flush out the real doctor which is why I was quick to agree with Justin on no one else claiming. False claiming hurts scum more in my opinion, I wanted to see if someone would think to take that bait, but once again I forgot there is a possiblity of more then one cop. So yeah I screwed up with that thought.

(Bold in quote above is mine, for clarity)
Prior to Six Aces doc claim there was NO NEED for a cop counterclaim... Even if Jesse were lying about being cop, the town was likely much safer just lynching Six Aces (as opposed to having a real cop come out just to tell us that Jesse was lying). Once again ANY counterclaim by a real cop (whether there's 1 or 2) on Day 1 is likely to end badly for the town at some point.

FoS: Farside 22

[MadCrawdad]

Vote:LaptopGun

Trying to get on good terms with the mod, eh? I see how it's going to be

Anyone else notice that this was OpposedForce's only post of the game, and it was 2 1/2 weeks ago? Looks like his last post on the site, too... Did we lose him?

[MadCrawdad]

If I may offer some unsolicited advice, if you are posting some factual analysis, such as me and SSF's vote being after the hammer, and then recheck it to find out that only SSF's vote was unnecessary, then just remove the first part and post the correct portion

A lot of people have thoughts about which positions on bandwagons are most likely to be scum. The 3rd and 4th positions being likely scum is even posted in the wiki, and I notice many people think that the hammer can be a scummy position. I don't put too much stock into positions, as you can generally hold off a day or two and change it, although the 3rd/4th ones are useful for pushing something that might not make it. In this case, though, once Jesse claimed the guilty result, the wagon was almost certain, and position isn't going to tell you much of anything other than who saw the claim first.

In that sense, I think SSF was just late to the party and wanted to contribute thoughts. I don't think it's a strong tell either way, and I'm not even sure you could get a weak tell out of it either. I'd be more inclined to ask MadCrawdad why he didn't place a vote yesterday. What did you think of the six aces wagon, MC?

Leading up to Six Aces lynching I mentioned that I thought he was likely scum, however, I held off voting him as it was a pretty quick wagon. My concern wasn't really that the town was making a mistake, but more along the lines that some may not have been ready to end the day, or may have had more questions to ask of Six Aces. I didn't want to help bury him before most folks were ready to do so . By the time I came back, he was already gone.

As far as the wagon, it was quick, but on the money.... of interest is the fact that both Phate and yourself expressed hesitation regarding the speed of the wagon yet piled on (which kept it moving along), you even hammered. If concerned, wouldn't it have been more prudent to hold off on voting (and especially hammering)?

SSF hopping on post mortem does seem a little odd, as well...

[MadCrawdad]

Wouldn't mafia be more likely to not vote at all, last round?

Always a possibility, but not an effective method of blending in....

[MadCrawdad]

Sorry, folks, as I haven't been on the thread for a few days... Starting tomorrow I should have more time to hop back in.

[MadCrawdad]

@kabenon

Here are a couple of things you said regarding your gut feeling about Vollkan...

Well, my first game was with vollkan here on MS. I was town, he was scum. He did exactly what he is doing now: long posts, responding to everything thrown at him with long posts. He was scum in that game and I knew it, but no one else believed me. And I can't help feeling that this is exactly how he acted that first game... and I know I said it was how he plays everytime...

but something just seems different

. But yes, it was vollkan I was considering putting my vote on. I believe my vote could do better on someone other than Shteven.

Come now vollkan, you have to admit that some words, some turns of phrase, cause you to feel a certain way about them. Your words merely caused a scummy sensation in the pit of my stomach. I was right last time.

A question I have, is how many other times have you played with Vollkan? In your first post quoted above you mentioned that you played your first game against him. In the second quote you mention that you were right about Vollkan being scum 'last time'. Are you possibly saying that you only played 1 other game with Vollkan?

[MadCrawdad]

We've only played in

one

completed game together: Newbie 358. I was scum, and he was town. He suspected me throughout the game, but I managed to throw it off and the scum ended up winning.

Thanks for the confirmation...

Well, my first game was with vollkan here on MS. I was town, he was scum. He did exactly what he is doing now: long posts, responding to everything thrown at him with long posts. He was scum in that game and I knew it, but no one else believed me. And I can't help feeling that this is exactly how he acted that first game... and I know I said it was how he plays everytime...

but something just seems different

. But yes, it was vollkan I was considering putting my vote on. I believe my vote could do better on someone other than Shteven.

So kabenon, you've played one other game with Vollkan, and he was scum then. Do you mind explaining how you would know that he plays the same every game (unless you follow him in other games), and what 'just seems different to you' this game?

The suspicions that you've cast against Shteven and Vollkan seem a little convenient, and can't really be disputed by the person being accused.... both were kind of gut feelings. With Shteven I recall it being 'not what he said, but the way he said it'....although that one started a little differently. With Vollkan, 'something just seems different.' I know you say that you've been sick, but that wouldn't explain continually going 'gut' when accusing folks.

I am strongly considering voting for you, but would like to hear your thoughts first.

[MadCrawdad]

I see that kabenon has a couple of posts elsewhere today, so I'm guessing that he's just ignoring my question...

vote: kabenon007

[MadCrawdad]

uhh, kabenon.....we're waiting.

[MadCrawdad]

Unvote

I'm not sure how I am on the kab case. I think I'd be okay with his lynch eventually, but I'd rather look around at other people first.

@those voting kab: If turns up scum, who are his scumbuddies? If turns up not scum, who?

Who is Roger Clemens?

I don't like kab's recent behaviour, but I wouldn't call it scummy enough for a vote.

@ Phate

In the first post above you mention that you'd be okay with kabenon's lynch at some point, yet in your second it looks like you're backing off. While not much had transpired regarding kab between your 1st and 2nd posts above, what may have changed your mind?

Kabenon has several inconsistencies that have been pointed out along with some sketchy accusations that he's made (ie, all gut and no logic). You say that that his actions aren't worthy of a vote, yet you've got a vote parked on MelodyMan23. What about MM23 do you still like as scum? Granted, he did hop on kab without giving a reason, but didn't kabenon accuse Shteven and Vollkan for no real reason, as well?

Vote: MelodyMan23

This'll work.

[MadCrawdad]

Phate, it looks like you posted while I was composing mine....

Apparently kabenon looks scummy enough for a vote, now. What changed your mind again?

[MadCrawdad]

Spacecase's vote for Kabenon was the hammer, wasn't it?

[MadCrawdad]

Im going to have to agree, lynching Kab would solve nothing and hurt us in the long run. But thats my personal opinion.

Kab, watch you said is scummy to me becasue you are trying to be "honorable", I guess you could say and just offering yourself up which I'm thinking is a last ditch effort to sway the vote away from you.

vote Kabenon007

@ Spacecase:

In looking at these two posts, can you explain how you went from all but declaring Kabenon an innocent, to actually dropping the hammer on him a mere 15 posts later?

[MadCrawdad]

I'm pretty sure that the claim i made answers your question. It seemed scummy to me that he would say that it was an honorable way to sacrificing himself to the town.

So you go from basically saying that (in your opinion) Kab was innocent and his lynch would ultimately hurt the town, to hammering in a matter of 15 posts... Kab's statement that his lynch was better than no lynch REALLY swung your opinion from one extreme to the other pretty quickly.

The fact that Kab flopped around on a couple of things earlier in the day didn't get your attention, but claiming that he preferred his own lynch to none drew your vote.

Could you explain your thought process in a little more detail?

[MadCrawdad]

Listen the lynch was better then no lynch at all. And yes i did change my views 15 posts later. But the person to throw down the hammer is always going to look suspicious.

Saying that his lynch was better than no lynch at all, is what Kab said, and apparently the reason that you hammered....yet you agreed with him? Please explain.

And adding to my point is (correct me if im wrong) that volkan even said he was a decent lynch.

Are you now saying that you followed Vollkan onto Kab?

Again, please explain your thought process regarding your reversal on Kab. It looks like you're claiming to have hammered based on Kab's argument that his lynch was better than none.

What did you really think about Kab? You've take several positions: first he's innocent, shortly thereafter he's scum, and now you hammered because Kab's lynch was better than none at all. Please clarify your position.

[MadCrawdad]

Spacecase hasn't said much to ease my mind. He still refuses to answer any direct requests to further explain his quick reversal on Kab.

Also, a couple of things he said early on Day 1 seemed a little shifty: When curiouskarmadog ended up dead early on, Spacecase seemed pretty willing to try to cast suspicion on anyone who played with CKD in prior games. Even though he never even played with CKD, Spacecase referred to CKD as the 'most analytical person' in the game, which was definitely odd, as no one who had played with CKD even said that (at least not in the thread).

So what we are basically saying is that we interrogate the "veteran" players, right?

but that's the thing. It had to be deliberate to take the most analytical person out of the game on night 0.

I don't want a repeat of yesterday, but the fact that Spacecase has gone into hiding seems to be strengthening the case against him.

FoS: Spacecase

[MadCrawdad]

I'm with farside, its not growing too fast at all.

Oman, I think the issue that folks may have with the wagon's speed, is that 'haste makes waste.' While there's a good chance that Spacecase is scum, giving him a chance to defend himself is probably more prudent than just lynching him for lurking.

Something that intrigues me a little, is that on a couple of other occasions you've seemed rather eager to lynch with minimal discussion. In the first quote below, you prod the town to get on with the Kab lynch, and in the second one you're willing to just lynch/vig Phate AND farside (even though Justin also interacted with a handful of other folks during the game).

Kabenon is scum, lets all lynch him please.

Hmm, good point. I'd be willing to assume he investigated one of phate and farside guilty.

It worth lynching them both (/viging one) of course, pre-set lynches can always be changed ad hoc.

Something else of interest is that early on Days 2 and 3, you wasted no time in expressing doubt as to whether Jesse is truly the cop as claimed.

Okay, I'm back from my holidays guys (I'll change the sig soon )

I missed the whole of D1, but firstly I'm astounded that Jessie claimed D1, and then investigated the townie that died.

Mighty coincidental, I mean, I certainly am not holding the fact that Jessie survived against him/her, as Fonz said , lotsa possible docs here.

FoS: Phate

for that, and

IGMEOY: Jessie

for that conicendence.

FoS Laptop Gun

For somehow getting "SK" out of Phates post, stinks of knowledge.

Wow.

So thats one cop.

I'm starting to doubt our previous cop's truthery.

I feel like I need to start off with a vote thouhg.

Vote Schteven

Your last post rubs me all the wrong ways. Like if Adel was a stripper.

The fact that you seem to be pushing lynches with minimal discussion seems odd. Also, several times you've been forced to backtrack when questioned about your reasons (ie, Justin interacting with others vs. only Phate/farside, and Spacecase lurking for 4 days vs. a week). Additionally, the fact that you cast suspicion on Jesse at the last two daybreaks makes me question your affiliation within the town.

Wouldn't you agree that more discussion is better than less when settling on a lynch candidate?

[MadCrawdad]

Oman, I think the issue that folks may have with the wagon's speed, is that 'haste makes waste.'

There is no haste. My point is (as farside put it better) that its not growing at an ecceptional speed.

Where has he not had a chance to defend himself.

While there's a good chance that Spacecase is scum, giving him a chance to defend himself is probably more prudent than just lynching him for lurking.

This looks like scumbuddies to me.

Alignment based FoS: MCD

Okay. You might want to quickly review to see who was first to bring the crux of the argument against Spacecase to light..... and note that fact that I didn't say we shouldn't lynch Spacecase (only proceed more cautiously after the Kab wagon). You, however, hopped on him for lurking (something that half the town has been doing on day 3).

Here in post 407 you claim to believe that Spacecase is just a newbie... you mention to Shteven that you're not really buying Spacecase's quick reversal on Kab as a scumtell...

It's not only that he hammered, but also the way he did it.

Ah, it just seems like a lot of effort for scum to actually JUMP on a wagon that is already going to deadline lynch. I see what you mean though, its quite a jump.

Here again in 407 you reaffirm your belief that Spacecase is just a newb...

And adding to my point is (correct me if im wrong) that volkan even said he was a decent lynch

Now, to me, this just looks newbie. Like he was following the crowd more.

Again in 407 you reaffirm that you believe that Spacecase is just a newb. Only this time to Vollkan you mention that SC's reversal on Kab is interesting... why wasn't it interesting when you weren't buying it in your response to Shteven?

I fail to see how my thoughts on this are relevant at all to your actions.

Damn I hate to talk before the person has answered. but this actually references a previous point. I think its newbie.

That defence being said: The hammer is damn interesting. I'm going to review this "180".

Here in post 411 you repost part of 407, apparently to affirm your belief that SC is just a harmless newbie...

And adding to my point is (correct me if im wrong) that volkan even said he was a decent lynch

Now, to me, this just looks newbie. Like he was following the crowd more.

Now here in post 431 you toss a vote onto the SC wagon solely due to the fact that Spacecase hadn't posted for 4 days...

Lynch all Lurkers. Post or Perish.

Unvote Vote Spacecase

Thats almost a week.

So, you say multiple times that you believe that SC is just a newb, but then turn around and vote him for lurking? As you've not weighed in on the rest of the case against SC (other than to dispute it) this would lead me to believe that you believe that SC is a lurking townie, right?

It's interesting to me, that early on, you disputed the evidence against SC. Once quite a few other folks were talking about SC's quick 180, however, you figured you'd hop on that wagon. The thing is, you hopped on for the sole reason of 'lurking'.... kind of a weak reason, and nothing that would bury SC further, but hey, you got on the wagon, right?

If anybody looks to be scumbuddies with SC, I'd say you're a pretty good candidate....

[MadCrawdad]

I do think MCD is on to something with oman, his defense of spacecase followed by joining it based on lurking is very suspect. I would of course remind everyone to make sure that spacecase is scum before we go after oman though. I hate making connections based cases before their alleged connection is of a known alignment.

I don't think that Oman's status (scum v. town) is contingent upon that of Spacecase. His willingness to quickly lynch/vig seems reckless (at least). His quick reversal on Spacecase (innocent newbie -> lurking scum) makes him suspect.

The fact that Oman originally suggested that SC was just a newbie, but then quickly jumped on the wagon (with no new information having been revealed) says to me that there might be a connection between the two.

[MadCrawdad]

NEWBIES CAN BE SCUM TOO!! YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM IS THIS THOUGHT THAT "NEWBIE" ALWAYS MEANS TOWN. NEW PEOPLE CAN BE SCUM ABOUT 1/3 OF THE TIME. RAWRRRRRR!

Agreed that newbies can be scum... the thing is when somebody says that the newb might be scum, and you say that it just seems newbie to you, it pretty much appears that you're disagreeing with the argument (and implying that at the moment you don't see the newb's actions as scummy), wouldn't you say? Otherwise, there would be absolutely no reason to bring up the fact that the guy's a newb, as everyone can already see the 'joined date' underneath their avatar...

[MadCrawdad]

I'm confused as to why discussion has swayed from our primary suspects at the moment, but I don't have time to dwell on it as I am about to leave on a trip for the next few days. I will be back on Wednesday, and I will analyze the situation better at that time.

There's more than one scumbag left in the game, and there's no sense in sitting on our hands while we wait to hear from other players of interest...

@Spacecase

Nope, didn't scare away the noob. Sorry a lot has been going on with the recent death threats and the crazy amount of homework tagged along with this kinda stuff. Give me an hour to catch up.

Okay SC, here you give a reason as to why you haven't been participating much. Can you please elaborate on the death threats that you speak of, and explain how your homework load would increase as a result?

yes my posting has been getting progressively slower do to certain events (i.e. JRP, V Tennis and ACT). Anyway I will try my hardest to keep current with this game.

More reasons, a post or two later, as to why you haven't participated much...

Can anybody clarify exactly why there was a case on Melody man. I'm having a hard time finding it since my reading is totally inept.

And here we have it... After claiming to be taking time to read up in the first quote, and promising to keep up a few posts later, this is your contribution.

What about the pending case against you? Surely you read that people wanted to hear from you. And your sole contribution is to ask about Melody Man?

While I'm not one much for lynching lurkers, avoiding questions is a completely different story...

[MadCrawdad]

Third Vote Count of the Day

Spacecase - 5 (Shteven, farside22, Rigel, Oman, dahill1)
Shteven - 1 (Oman)

Not voting - 9 (

Cipher, LaptopGun, Spacecase, The Fonz, somestrangeflea, vollkan, MadCrawdad, Phate)

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch.

you've got Oman voting Spacecase and Shteven

[MadCrawdad]

Any time I see a sentece contradict itself, it looks like scum.

Oman, I was hoping you could address a rather large contradiction, on your part, for me...

While there's a good chance that Spacecase is scum, giving him a chance to defend himself is probably more prudent than just lynching him for lurking.

This looks like scumbuddies to me.

Alignment based FoS: MCD

In this post, you specifically say that I'm scumbuddies with SC. Even throw an alignment-based FoS my way. This specifically says to me 'If SC is scum, then MadCrawdad is scum.'

Oman just pulled a thinly veiled OMGUS. This looks fascinating. FOS Oman

HoS LTG

I think you're scum.

That was obviously a joke. Now, I'm not OMGUSing him. I'm simply saying that last line looks like scum. The thing is, it only holds if Spacecase turns up town, so I promise you, if he comes up town, MCD gets a vote. If he comes up scum...I'll look elsewhere.

Now here you say basically that 'if SC is scum then MadCrawdad is town.'

Your second post answering LaptopGun is a complete contradiction to the first alignment-based FoS that you threw.

Please explain the contradiction.

[MadCrawdad]

Ah sorry, misstype. It should be the other way around. I do several things whilst playing mafia.

Thanks. Just wanted to clarify, as there's been a couple of inconsistencies surrounding your FoS...

Elaborate on this please, Oman. Why does it look like scumbuddies?

While there's a good chance that Spacecase is scum,

In case he gets lynched he can't be accused of defending.

giving him a chance to defend himself is probably more prudent than just lynching him for lurking.

Puts forward a strange situation, give the lurker time to defend. He's lurking, which means he's had lots of time to defend, he's choosing not to. So the first sentence is "Oh ya, he's likely scum" the second is "Just give him more time" which is whats getting him lynched in the first place.

Any time I see a sentece contradict itself, it looks like scum.

In your response to Vollkan, you mention it was a contradiction in what I said that caused you to toss a seemingly OMGUS FoS my way. I don't really see the contradiction, but whatever, apparently you do.

So what I'm seeing here is that you think that 'SC is scum AND MadCrawdad (who has apparently contradicted himself) is also scum. Since SC AND MadCrawdad are scum, they must be scumbuddies...'

While there's a good chance that Spacecase is scum, giving him a chance to defend himself is probably more prudent than just lynching him for lurking.

This looks like scumbuddies to me.

Alignment based FoS: MCD

Now, here's your original FoS. You specifically say 'alignment based FoS'. This says something a little different to me than your response to Vollkan. This says 'SC is scum, and MadCrawdad is aligned with SC. Therefore MadCrawdad must be scum also.'

While you claim to suspect me of being scum in both of your responses, your reasons for doing so are somewhat different.

Hoping you can clarify the apparent contradiction, as you seem to have waivered once again.

[MadCrawdad]

The recent death threat was actually two death threats. The threat was towards all Hispanics and African Americans that March 5th and 6th somebody will come to school with a gun and shoot them. This leads to more homework since we haven't taught anything for the past three days of last week. In fact there was a record low of 400 teenagers at school on March 6th. I also didnt ask why I was being prosecuted as a mafia member due to the main case that i was a "lurker" and that i was trying to lay low.

So you continued to lay low?

The main case against you is that you pulled an immediate flip-flop on the Kab vote. I've asked you on several occasions to further explain your thought process as to how you went from saying that lynching Kab would be a bad idea, to actually dropping the hammer 15 posts later.

You completely ignored the request and continue to do so...

Last chance to answer...continue to ignore and you'll receive my vote.

[MadCrawdad]

I actually did state my purpose in why i wanted to lynch Kab. You just never really looked at it. I thought that it was scummy of what he started saying towards the end of the day. Plus i have been trying to answer all the questions you have asked such as the death threats and what not.

What I was hoping to get was a little more explanation as to exactly what about Kab's statement seemed scummy enough for you to hammer. Just saying that his statement seemed scummy doesn't explain much...

You said a couple of different things like:

- Kab was trying to be honorable, which looked scummy.
- Even Vollkan thought Kab was a good lynch candidate.

The fact that you would have Kabenon so low on your scumdar that you would caution the town against lynching him, and then shortly thereafter consider him scummy enough to hammer is of interest to me.

I'd really be interested in hearing in detail greater than 'oh, Kab's statement seemed scummy,' as to how everything played into your decision, and made you change your mind so quickly.

[MadCrawdad]

@ farside

Right now reading today I like what MadCrawdad found on space case and his reasoning seems weak.

FOS: Space case

I need to do a reread of yesterday to figure things out, but that is good to have for now

Early on Day 3 you FoS'ed Spacecase, claiming that you were also going to reread and 'figure things out.' As your attention hasn't been anywhere else (other than SC), is it safe to assume that your 'figuring things out' was a bust?

@ Phate

I don't think randomly lynching among people the cop talked about is a good idea, Oman.

This is probably a bit hypocritical on my part, given my lack of posting, but I'm not a fan of lurker lynches, and SpaceCase's wagon is growing really fast. I don't like it.

Cipher, why do you think I'm scummy?
dahill, why are you fishing?

dahill, why is my not paying attention to cop claims a scumtell? Unless you prove that scum are less likely than town to pay attention to roleclaims (good luck with that), you can take that out of your argument.

Phate, these are all of your posts from Day 3. Most of them pretty much appear to be defensive in nature, with you occasionally popping in when someone mentions your name. None of them appear to be at all helpful in hunting down scum.

Wouldn't a player have a better chance of showing their innocence by actually helping root out evil, versus just saying "I'm not scum" whenever their name comes up?

[MadCrawdad]

I think Cipher is almost certainly our cop because he has not been counterclaimed. The mafia will probably roleblock him, but if we doctor protect him and he can't get results, the mafia will probably pick us off. At least I have one less suspect.

LaptopGun has been 'cleared' by the likely cop, which means there are two fewer suspects...

[MadCrawdad]

@MCD: I know I'm not around as much, but I did state the following that still hasn't been answered or commented on. <snip>

@ farside

Here's a quote where you mention that most of the time, lurkers are scum. As we've got several of them in this game, do you stand by your comment that most lurkers are scum?

P.S. Didn't like the case on melody man day 2, still don't. Seems to basically be "he's lurking". Probably right on that, doesn't sell me as him being scum though.

It was also his lack of reasoning when he voted. Lurkers can sometimes be scum (most times). Depends on the person and if they know how to bluff well in these games.

[MadCrawdad]

[quote="dahill1]That is true and could very well be true for phate as well.
but for right now i want to focus the attention on spacecase, so we can see what happens after he's lynched (if he is)[/quote]

@dahill

This comment is interesting, to say the least...

Wouldn't you agree that it's more pro-town to focus attention where necessary (to try to maximize the chances of lynching scum), versus focusing all attention on one individual in hopes that more information will come to light after the lynch?

[MadCrawdad]

That is true and could very well be true for phate as well.
but for right now i want to focus the attention on spacecase, so we can see what happens after he's lynched (if he is)

@dahill

This comment is interesting, to say the least...

Wouldn't you agree that it's more pro-town to focus attention where necessary (to try to maximize the chances of lynching scum), versus focusing all attention on one individual in hopes that more information will come to light after the lynch?

sorry, botched the quote tag in the previous post... it should read as shown above.

[MadCrawdad]

mod, can you please issue necessary prods?

[MadCrawdad]

I'm mildly curious as to why no-one's answered my question about what they think SC's motive to act like that as scum could have been.

Why, if SC is scum, do you think he wouldn't have acted the way he did?

[MadCrawdad]

I'm mildly curious as to why no-one's answered my question about what they think SC's motive to act like that as scum could have been.

Why, if SC is scum, do you think he wouldn't have acted the way he did?

I've already explained this- there's no possible benefit. The Kab lynch was the only game in town. He was going to be lynched, whether or not spacecase supported it, the deadline was looming fast, Kab was at -1 and had basically appeared to give up, and there was no other wagon available. SC stood to gain a few townie points by defending a townie.

By switching, having been adamant about Kab's innocence, he didn't further any scum objectives, since Kab would have been lynched anyway, and he just made himself look more suspicious due to the difficulty of reconciling the two positions.

Now, it's possible spacecase

is

just really dumb scum. If people believe that, I'd like them to say so. If there's some other reason you think scum SC would have chosen to hammer Kab, I'd like to hear that also.

@Oman: No, I wasn't talking about lurking. Lurking has obvious benefits for scum, though it is harder to get away with when you're the focus of everyone's attention.

You say that there's no possible benefit, but maybe there is. Folks generally assume that scum want to blend in and remain hidden. Therefore, when scum makes a bold move and draws some attention their way, there's always the chance that others will say "There's no way scum would have done that. It doesn't make sense that scum would do that."

With that said, Fonz, there's something I've been wondering about. The fact that you seconded or reinforced Space's hammer with one of your own seems a little odd to me, especially since it was pointed out that Kab was already dead before you voted.


Here in post 343 SC hammers Kab

A lynch, be it a townie or scum, provides information. A no-lynch at this point in the game just gives the scum another free kill. This day needs to end with a lynch. I would prefer it not be me, I would prefer myself over no lynch.

Kab, watch you said is scummy to me becasue you are trying to be "honorable", I guess you could say and just offering yourself up which I'm thinking is a last ditch effort to sway the vote away from you.

vote Kabenon007

In post 346 you announce your intention to vote Kab

Announce intention to vote Kab

Basically, I don't think town players should ever admit they'd prefer their own lynch to none. For starters, cops shouldn't, so it's giving the scum role info if you do happen to survive.

Please claim now.

Post 348 I mention that it looks like Kabenon is already dead.

Spacecase's vote for Kabenon was the hammer, wasn't it?

Post 352 you vote Kab

No, but my point

precisely

is that BY SAYING YOU WOULDN'T MIND YOUR OWN LYNCH, YOU (if town) ARE LETTING SCUM KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT A POWERROLE.

Therefore, on a meta level, no-one who states that they don't mind being lynched should ever be allowed to live (because it's an action that has no possible benefit for a town player).

Vote: Kabenon007

Can you explain why you put your vote on Kab, even after it was pointed out that he was already dead?

[MadCrawdad]

@Shteven

(snip)So, to everyone else: Do large, obvious wagons that stall a few votes short of lynch imply the mafia aren't lynching their partner or that they don't want to be caught killing another townie (or insert 3rd option)? Why hasn't this wagon reached 8, and what, if anything, can be inferred? Or am I trying to infer too much from players who are not voting simply because they're inactive?

Shteven, something with your line of thinking seems a little scummy to me...

You imply that by not voting Spacecase, more than half the town looks scummy. Nevermind the fact that your options mention that SC could be scum or innocent...basically those not voting Spacecase are scummy:

Option 1: Those not voting SC are scum, and don't want to lynch their partner.
Option 2: Those not voting SC are scum, and are afraid to lynch a townie.

Regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent, those not voting SC look scummy to you. That line of thinking looks a little scummy to me.

@Fonz

Fonz, could you address my question in post 594 when you get a chance?

[MadCrawdad]

To Fonz: I'm really not sure if a stalled wagon means the person is more likely to be scum or town. I wish I could say either way - the uncertainty is starting to give me cold feet. I do agree with your other point, at 5 votes and not moving, those 3 votes are a long way from coming and there isn't a need for him to claim yet.

To MadCrawdad: That's not what I was trying to imply. I see nothing wrong with not voting for spacecase. My post made two points, you've ignored the other one. Let me bold the one you skipped:

The fact that spacecase hasn't been lynched yet

wouldn't bother me if there were people voting for other people

, or any other viable wagon forming.

But no one* is voting for anyone but spacecase,

and spacecase isn't lynched.

Together, not a good thing

.

I'd be glad to see people saying they think spacecase is town and player X is scum. But no one is. People just aren't accusing anyone. The town is collectively lurking. THAT I have a problem with. Really, I thought that was pretty clear.

I was addressing post 595, not post 601

how about if someone puts spacecase at L-2 or L-1 for a claim, but we don't lynch yet?

Spacecase is at L-2...

[MadCrawdad]

FOS Phate. I'd like to hear more from him. This also so goes back to something we talked about a *long time ago* . Phate was one of the 3 Justin talked about. I think I'm gonna run down the list on that before I worry about other things.

I don't particularly think that Phate was Justin's investigation, but if that makes you vote him then go for it.

I want to hear from those who aren't voting anyone and haven't yet commented on Phate. Where do you stand?

The name rings a bell, but I can't place the face....who is Phate?

I'd love to hear anything from Phate regarding the points that people have made....

Lots of folks I'd like to hear more from:

Phate
Spacecase
farside22
perfectiondoesnotexist

[MadCrawdad]

okay melody man was just a bad player. i've seen his games (and replaced in a few as well), and so far he has acted like that regardless of alignment.
and i never said the fact that they are confirmed means they are right or wrong. but shouldn't we trust what the cop says more than someone else? this is not me trying to "act town", it's what i genuinely believe; that cops should have more say in a lynch than other unconfirmed players.

p.s. it seems to me that phate saw a wagon to jump on and did so by just using the "for reasons previously stated" line. phate, can you elaborate on why you think i'm scum, in your own words?

As far as trusting what the cop says more than someone else, while the cop's intentions can be trusted, that doesn't mean that their scum picks are correct. Simply voting someone because 'the cop says we should' could give you a free pass if the lynch were to go bad and the lynchee end up townie. Don't you think?

@dahill again

Earlier on Day 3, SC was asked to further describe his thought process on how he came to hammer Kabenon. The post below was eventually pulled out of him, and although incomplete, it was a start. In the post, SC says that he though the bandwagon on Kab was scum-driven at some point.

Alright maybe I try to explain better why I voted to kill Kab. When the first post happened I thought that the wagon was a scum driven wagon. I didn't think that he was scum at all. But, what Kab said 15 posts later changed my opinion. You can't tell me that you have never changed your opinion 10 to 20 posts later.

I hope that this gives you a better understanding of my thought process.

Now here's a question you posed based on SC's post above.

on the kab bandwagon justin fairplay was the second to vote..
did you think he was part of the scum driving it?

Can you explain why you asked this question? What info were you hoping to get from an answer?

[MadCrawdad]

@dahill again

Earlier on Day 3, SC was asked to further describe his thought process on how he came to hammer Kabenon. The post below was eventually pulled out of him, and although incomplete, it was a start. In the post, SC says that he though the bandwagon on Kab was scum-driven at some point.

Alright maybe I try to explain better why I voted to kill Kab. When the first post happened I thought that the wagon was a scum driven wagon. I didn't think that he was scum at all. But, what Kab said 15 posts later changed my opinion. You can't tell me that you have never changed your opinion 10 to 20 posts later.

I hope that this gives you a better understanding of my thought process.

Now here's a question you posed based on SC's post above.

on the kab bandwagon justin fairplay was the second to vote..
did you think he was part of the scum driving it?

Can you explain why you asked this question? What info were you hoping to get from an answer?

i asked this question because i wanted to know if, at the time, SC thought Justin was scum. the info i wished to recieve was along the lines of.."i thought _____ of him then, i think _____ of him now"

also, people seem to be undermining my main reason of voting phate, and have no problem jumping on to my wagon

I'm not jumping on any wagon, just asking a question...

We know what everyone thinks of Justin now, what did you think of Justin then?

[MadCrawdad]

@dahill again

Earlier on Day 3, SC was asked to further describe his thought process on how he came to hammer Kabenon. The post below was eventually pulled out of him, and although incomplete, it was a start. In the post, SC says that he though the bandwagon on Kab was scum-driven at some point.

Alright maybe I try to explain better why I voted to kill Kab. When the first post happened I thought that the wagon was a scum driven wagon. I didn't think that he was scum at all. But, what Kab said 15 posts later changed my opinion. You can't tell me that you have never changed your opinion 10 to 20 posts later.

I hope that this gives you a better understanding of my thought process.

Now here's a question you posed based on SC's post above.

on the kab bandwagon justin fairplay was the second to vote..
did you think he was part of the scum driving it?

Can you explain why you asked this question? What info were you hoping to get from an answer?

i asked this question because i wanted to know if, at the time, SC thought Justin was scum. the info i wished to recieve was along the lines of.."i thought _____ of him then, i think _____ of him now"

also, people seem to be undermining my main reason of voting phate, and have no problem jumping on to my wagon

I'm not jumping on any wagon, just asking a question...

We know what everyone thinks of Justin now, what did you think of Justin then?

i was replaced after justin died, so i can't really say what i thought of him without having the bias of already knowing he was a cop. however, i think whoever he investigated on nights 0 and 1 he got innocent on them, because he suspected lots of people but did not focus on one specifically. also when reading back, i saw that in one post Justin made a comment specifically directed towards Phate. In it, he mentioned that Jesse had claimed cop and, unless he just skipped over that post, Phate recently claimed to have not known of the cop claim

Unless you read the thread backwards, you should have been able to read Justin's earlier posts before you got to the part where he was killed and revealed as cop, right?

[MadCrawdad]

This is messing with my head a bit.

I'm kind of ok with dahill, though I will stress that nobody should put any more faith in my case than anyone else's (unless I have a guilty, obv). I still like the Phate wagon better, and it really seems like this town is suffering from ADD.

I disagree with your ADD comment. I think that, if anything, the town has suffered from tunnel vision at times... IMO we should be in no rush to lynch, and the more information we can get, the better. It makes more sense to 'ask around' FIRST, and THEN focus on a lynch candidate (or two).

[MadCrawdad]

@farside

The quotes below show that this is the second time in two days that you've had a vote firmly parked on someone, only to go bounding off after another based on a single comment that doesn't seem to sit right with you...

I'm not sure what to think. The game has gone a bit slow at this point and time. I think Justin had some good points, but I'm not as sure as before especially when people vote and just agree with another person so there vote looks good.

Unvote
vote: MelodyMan23

His vote and comment was just a little to sly for my taste.

dahill really screwed up my thought process with that comment. I doubt that is a newbie mistake too. I sense it is someone trying to look town that is scum. I still think spacecase needs to be looked at, however this lastest comment from dahill does not sit well at all.

unvote: vote: dahill

Also noted that he/she replaced Melody Man who I felt suspicious of when he changed his vote and Wesq who was also looking scummie in the beginning.

Now what really intrigues me about the 2nd more recent post above, is that when you switched to dahill, that you mentioned you were suspicious of Melody Man, seemingly implying that you've been suspicious of dahill (and his predecessors) all along.... If you were really so suspicious, why did you forget about them completely on Day 3, until now?

The quotes below show that Spacecase and Oman were your only candidates for scum on Day 3, and that dahill/Melody Man had fallen off your radar completely. So why the need to remind everyone that you previously mentioned Melody Man as scum?

Well I'm still thinking Spacecase for a couple of reason. 1) I don't care for his reasoning. 2) when I pointed out my case against him he ignored it and asked about Melody Man instead. Now he seems to think his answer is sufficiate, but a lot of what he says is like he is thinking too hard on what to say.
Now as for who else I feel is scummie I would say Oman just because I've never really seen him agree with people. When he agreed with me about Spacecase not being a quick lynch it surprised me (past games just made me feel like he's using what someone else said to look good). Most of my case is based on gut more then anything I found. But he is someone I have in mind because of some of his actions.

No, boredom.

QFT.
I've read through. I stated my second option. I'm not sure what else you want me to say. No one really stands out as scum and at this point I think knowing for sure Spacecases alignment may help out for the next day. I'm sure this will be crap reasoning to some, but look at it this way. If spacecase is scum we should look at who held up the wagon and was trying to get someone else to look scummie. If spacecase is not scum we look at everyone who jumped on the wagon early and easily. Some people may not like my idea, but really where have we really gotten on day 2 thus far that hasn't been said to death?

[MadCrawdad]

Okay, well then, did you read the part where I said that whether or not Spacecase is scum, he should be lynched today regardless? I don't think that going out on a limb and casting a single vote on Farside is very pro-town at this point.

Rigel, can you explain how this statement is not scummy... you know, about lynching regardless of whether folks believe someone is scum or not. I pretty much thought the object was to lynch scum.

If folks feel confident that a candidate is scum, by all means they should vote them.... just because you'd like to get on with the day is another story.

It puzzles me that both you and farside say that knowing SC's affiliation is critical in progressing the game, so that we can examine the wagon on him. Yet neither of you have even tried picking apart the wagon that was on Kabenon yesterday.

Let me ask you this. If everyone votes (or FoS's) SC at your urging, what are you going have to look at? Seriously. Who would be the most interesting if SC turns up scum? Who would be the most interesting if he turns up town?

[MadCrawdad]

Im sorry but I think this game is doomed to repeat itself.

Please clarify.... are you saying that you disagree with the candidates that people are discussing? Well then who do you like for scum? I think I recall you mentioning Shteven, but have seen nothing since. If you like someone for scum, dig thru some posts and make a case...

[MadCrawdad]

Granted day 3 has been pretty long, but I'm glad we're actually looking at some new information recently with the push on rigel.

But by 'doomed to repeat itself' he probably means the last 'new C9' game which was abandoned.

Shteven, this post above seems to contradict some of your previous posts

Here, below, you seem to be complaining that the day has gone on as long as it has. It looks like your urging people to 'hurry up and vote' for SC already...

People are very, very welcome to vote for someone other than spacecase. However, this day has been going on now for exactly 1 month. It started on feb 26th. I really think people should have some idea of who they think is scum and should be actively voting for someone by now. And yet, as of the last vote count, there are 6 people voting for anyone and 8 people not voting at all. This is what my complaint in post 601 was over. My post 595 was wondering if we could infer something about Spacecase's alignment from his wagon having slowed down, but in the end I don't really think it's possible. It becomes WIFOM fairly easily.

Now this next post REALLY contradicts what you recently said.... Above you mention that you're glad folks are looking at some new info on Rigel. Yet, here you apparently agree wholeheartedly with Rigel's argument for lynching SC... the argument that currently has Rigel on the hotseat.

Again you appear to be urging folks to 'hurry up and vote' for SC.

And finally...How can people read Rigel's last post and not be voting Spacecase? It's about that time...

Just for clarity here's Rigel's post you refer to when you urge folks to vote SC to end the day...

As for the Spacecase wagon in general, I think that the best statement regarding it thus far has been made by Farside:

No, boredom.

QFT.
I've read through. I stated my second option. I'm not sure what else you want me to say.

No one really stands out as scum and at this point I think knowing for sure Spacecase's alignment may help out for the next day. I'm sure this will be crap reasoning to some, but look at it this way. If spacecase is scum we should look at who held up the wagon and was trying to get someone else to look scummie. If spacecase is not scum we look at everyone who jumped on the wagon early and easily.

Some people may not like my idea, but really where have we really gotten on day 2 thus far that hasn't been said to death?

(Bolding is mine)

In all honesty, we're not going to get any guarantees at this point in the game. If there was another cop, they'd have counter-claimed by now. So all we have to go on alignment-wise is who dies and whatever Cypher says. So why are we dilly-dallying over who dies? Obviously, the object is to get rid of scum, but we're not at LoL yet. There are still 9 or 10 townies left in the game. If getting rid of one townie helps us to find one or more scum, we're still coming out ahead.

You agree with Rigel's argument to lynch SC regardless of thoughts on affiliation, yet you applaud the fact that some are going after him for that same argument. Odd isn't it?

How can you say 'You go, Rigel!' while at the same time saying 'Get Rigel, guys!'?

[MadCrawdad]

You then attribute the argument for getting information out of lynching spacecase-town to Rigel. That's false, it was suggested by farside. Rigel mentioned it was her's, and it was in a quote block container her name. It was also only a small portion of rigel's rather largepost 704. It isn't a good point, and I agree with Fonz's responses (now we're coming full circle ) that information is not worth killing townies.

I'll give you a complete rundown on his post 704. See his post for his comments, I'm not going to quote it all. When I said the post was good I was just welcoming support on pushing spacecase, I did not mean to support the rest of the thoughts on other players. I'll respond to all of his sections because most of them I don't like, other than Oman's.

FOS's oman: Agreed. I don't like the noncommittal stance Oman seems to be taking here.

Spacecase informational lynch: Disagree. I'd rather keep as many of those townies alive as possible. I voted spacecase because of his quick flip on day 2 and the attempted hammer. I recently finished a newbie game in which the same thing happened on day 1 and was done by scum. That's only one case, but I think it's useful information.

Whether you want to attribute Rigel's argument to Rigel or Farside is irrelevant. Rigel's main point was that SC should be lynched regardless of affiliation...

He said this...

In all honesty, we're not going to get any guarantees at this point in the game. If there was another cop, they'd have counter-claimed by now. So all we have to go on alignment-wise is who dies and whatever Cypher says. So why are we dilly-dallying over who dies? Obviously, the object is to get rid of scum, but we're not at LoL yet. There are still 9 or 10 townies left in the game. If getting rid of one townie helps us to find one or more scum, we're still coming out ahead.

and this...

In the end, I guess what I basically want to say is that we should, and likely need to lynch Spacecase today. Regardless of whether or not you believe he is scum. Spacecase's lynch will do two things. It will reveal his alignment, allowing us to further study his lynch in terms of that, and will progress us to Night, where Cypher can investigate someone else. Yes, it will also allow scum and the possible SK to act, but we've still got a lot of townies out there. I think we can make a potentially dangerous strategic play for one night.

then you said this...

And finally...How can people read Rigel's last post and not be voting Spacecase? It's about that time...

You didn't say 'it was a good post,' as you claim above. You said 'vote Spacecase,' seemingly agreeing with Rigel's only point for lynching SC in that particular post. Keep in mind that you weren't looking to 'pressure' Spacecase, as you say in the first quote above. It sure looked, to me, like you wanted everyone to vote SC to end the day.

FoS: Shteven

[MadCrawdad]

@ Rigel

(Bold is mine)

@MadCrawdad: I don't feel that you're taking the post that you are quoting in the context of my argument

. I'm not saying that we should lynch any player regardless of alignment. I'm saying that we should lynch a scummy player who isn't contributing to the game for the sake of the town as a whole. I also want to point out that, with further reading of LML's posts, his accusations on farside aren't all that damning. They are worth noting, but I don't honestly feel as if he put forth enough evidence to have justified a vote for him at this point. However, the fact that he did accuse farside personally had nothing to do with my response. If he had voted for anyone else without a vote, I would have likely had the same response.

As for who would be interesting to look at once SC's alignment is revealed; I think that if SC is scum, as I believe, the people to look at are those who either didn't vote for him, voted late, or voted after being dead set on voting for someone else. Conversely, if he is revealed to be town, I would look at those most interested in getting him lynched, and those who were against his lynch would get a smidgen less critiqued. This would all be hinging, of course, on whatever happened overnight.

Also, I'd be willing to look at the Kabenon lynch, since you seem insistent upon it.

I'll try to devote some time to it over the next few days and post what I find later on.

I find it interesting that I am being looked at for this statement and Phate is being lumped in with me,

but Shteven, who openly agreed with my original post, has no suspicion thrown upon him

. I think the problem is that no one bothered to link the post I directly referenced in the short post that keeps being brought up. Out of the blue, my short post is scummy, yes. But the rationalization I made in the original post clarifies it and makes it a more viable option.

Pretty sure I'm not taking anything out of context with regard to your argument. Here you say the town should lynch SC regardless of whether they believe that he's scum or not.

In the end, I guess what I basically want to say is that we should, and likely need to lynch Spacecase today.

Regardless of whether or not you believe he is scum

. Spacecase's lynch will do two things. It will reveal his alignment, allowing us to further study his lynch in terms of that, and will progress us to Night, where Cypher can investigate someone else. Yes, it will also allow scum and the possible SK to act, but we've still got a lot of townies out there. I think we can make a potentially dangerous strategic play for one night.

Secondly, I'm not insistent that you look at the Kab lynch, but think that it might be a good place to start...as opposed to asking folks to lynch SC (regardless of their beliefs) so that you can look at that wagon.

Lastly, saying that no suspicion has been cast on Shteven is wrong. Check back a few posts, and you'll see that I called him on it. Probably more because he's now denying that he ever agreed.

[MadCrawdad]

I agreed with the idea of lynching spacecase; I was far too hasty in supporting any post that shared that goal regardless of the reason.

It was a poorly thought out post on my part when I just agreed wholesale with a very large post without taking the time to go through it. That was certainly a mistake.

You keep saying that you just expressed an overall general agreement with Rigel's post, and that his argument for lynching SC just kind of slipped by you... That's not the case. You didn't just give blanket agreement to the post, you referred to his argument for lynching SC when you said

And finally...How can people read Rigel's last post and not be voting Spacecase? It's about that time...

You had to be referring to his argument, as Rigel really made no other points about lynching SC in that post.

vote: Shteven

[MadCrawdad]

I agreed with the idea of lynching spacecase; I was far too hasty in supporting any post that shared that goal regardless of the reason.

You had to be referring to his argument, as Rigel really made no other points about lynching SC in that post.

I feel like we're saying the same thing, only you don't realize it. I was referring to his argument, when I said "I was far too hasty in supporting any post that shared that goal regardless of the reason."

It's what I get for posting a response while only causally reading his post. The far more complete response is in my post 747.

Nope, we're absolutely NOT saying the same thing...

You're saying

that Rigel posted his argument for lynching SC regardless of affiliation, along with some points on other players, and you just said 'Nice job, Rigel,' without noticing the reasoning for voting SC...

I'm saying

that Rigel posted his argument for lynching SC regardless of affiliation, and you specifically said

'How can people read Rigel's last post and not be voting Spacecase? It's about that time...'

This would imply to me that you did read Rigel's argument, and found it quite compelling. So much so that you question why EVERYONE was not voting SC at that time.

BIG DIFFERENCE...

One more question for you Shteven. On Day 1, you mentioned that you were uncomfortable with the speed of Six Aces' lynch, but went on to vote for him in the same post. As that seems to be a contradiction, can you explain why you would vote for somebody if you were uncomfortable doing so?

I am uncomfortable with the speed of this lynch. Page 5 is not going to give us very much to go on for day 2. That said, I'll admit that even though I'm not very fond of jessie's soft claiming method, having a claimed guilty result is going to be a better chance than most day 1 lynches. With apologies to six aces, and your sister:

Vote: Six Aces

[MadCrawdad]

So my first post implied I read it. I later explicitly stated I didn't give it the attention it deserved. That seems pretty clear that I'm claiming I didn't give it enough thought. You should be suspicious of me because I posted too quickly without considering it. But you can't say that because of the initial post that I clearly read the post carefully when I've flat out stated that I didn't.

As for six aces, you seem to be digging up much of nothing. The answer is right in the quoted post. I don't like speedy lynches, but "having a claimed guilty result is going to be a better chance than most day 1 lynches". You know, the whole cop saying he had a guilty result. That certainly counts for more than being uncomfortable with speedy lynches as rule. Was that not clear?

You didn't say that you disliked speedy lynches in general, you said that you were uncomfortable with the speed of the SixAces lynch specifically...

Just struck me odd that you'd be uncomfortable with the speed, then vote and keep the wagon rolling is all.

Another interesting post: After Jesse came out as cop, Ryan voted for SixAces, and you called him on it by telling him that a FoS was more in order than a vote...

unvote/vote: Six Aces

I'm interested to see where this development takes us

As am I but I didn't really think I had to jump on the bandwagon to get an answer from him. Worth a FOS.

[MadCrawdad]

So my first post implied I read it. I later explicitly stated I didn't give it the attention it deserved. That seems pretty clear that I'm claiming I didn't give it enough thought. You should be suspicious of me because I posted too quickly without considering it. But you can't say that because of the initial post that I clearly read the post carefully when I've flat out stated that I didn't.

Now, the problem I have with this is that I cannot envisage any reasonable townie posting "How can people read Rigel's last post and not be voting Spacecase? It's about that time..." (Which is seriously strong language) without having actually read the argument.

It suggests very strongly that you are simply being driven by a desire to lynch, rather than a desire to lynch well (ie. to lynch scum).

@MadCrawdad: I don't feel that you're taking the post that you are quoting in the context of my argument. I'm not saying that we should lynch any player regardless of alignment. I'm saying that we should lynch a scummy player who isn't contributing to the game for the sake of the town as a whole.

This is immensely slippery.

Let's go back to your initial thoughts shall we:

In the end, I guess what I basically want to say is that we should, and likely need to lynch Spacecase today. Regardless of whether or not you believe he is scum. Spacecase's lynch will do two things. It will reveal his alignment, allowing us to further study his lynch in terms of that, and will progress us to Night, where Cypher can investigate someone else. Yes, it will also allow scum and the possible SK to act, but we've still got a lot of townies out there. I think we can make a potentially dangerous strategic play for one night.

In other words, you are calling on people to lynch SC even if they don't suspect him due to information and progressing the game. As I have already shown, this logic applies to absolute anybody.

Now, in your latest explanation (the quote above which begins with "@madcrawdad") you alter that to say "we should lynch a scummy player who isn't contributing to the game for the sake of the town as a whole". That wasn't your initial position, which was to lynch SC no matter what just for info and progress. You slip in the adjective "scummy" now, to make it seem less ridiculous, but that just amounts to a sneaky adjustment of the position you initially advocated, despite you attempting to appear consistent.

@Vollkan: I agree with your post, except for two things. One is that I know that I am not scum, which none of you will believe but I know to be true. The second is that I am only being called out for this one particular 'mistake', whereas Spacecase has had an entire case leveled against him.

So your defence amounts to:
1) I'm town
2) SC is worse

That said, shouldn't we be voting a player who has:

1. FoSed someone, then in the next post claimed they were a bad lynch, then in the next post hammered them?
2. FoSed a player because using 'feelings' is apparently a weak argument, then justified a subsequent vote by
3. Done little-to-no scumhunting throughout.
4. Used craplogic (because you [vollkan] agreed with the lynch, my flip-flop can't be scummy).
5. Hasn't answered half the questions directly posed to him.
6. Claimed to be 'not trying to lurk' and didn't add anything else, therefore active lurking.
7. Has claimed townie.

We really should be, but we are pretty much spoiled for choice right now

That first quote in your post appears to be mis-attributed to Spacecase.... actually it was Shteven who said it...

[MadCrawdad]

@ Rigel

Rigel, here's some posts of yours that strike me as really odd... hopefully you can clarify:

In the quote below, you seem to be flopping around all over the place on Kabenon.

First you say that the Kab wagon 'got completely out of control,' implying that you think he's innocent.

Then you say 'Kabenon is scummy, if not flat out scum.'

You say there's scum on the wagon, scum off the wagon.

Then you say that you think it's just a 'lynch-happy town' going after Kab.

You close saying that you're not going to hammer Kab because you want to get an issue with LaptopGun resolved first... implying that you might have hammered if not for the LTG issue.

So what were your real thought on Kab, Rigel? Kind of hard to tell from this post....

The main thing that strikes me about this post, however, is the fact that you really appear to be snuggling up to Justin Playfair (cop) who ended up dead that very night... This is certainly odd, but your next post really makes it more so..

Okay, this Kabenon thing got completely out of control. I think it's pretty obvious that at least one scum is on the Kabenon wagon by this point; statistics and common sense tell us that. I'm guessing there's probably one who's not on the wagon as well.

I'm not sure what to think about this. On the one hand, I do feel that Kabenon is scummy, if not flat out scum. His play today has been simply bad, what with his comments to Shteven on what townies should and should not think, his offhand JDodge comment, etc. However, the speed at which his lynch is getting pushed is slightly worrying me. However, I'm willing to believe it's just lynch-happy town for the time being, since I don't have any specific evidence otherwise.

One quick thing I noticed. I don't feel like Justin Playfair is 'masterminding' Kabenon's lynch at all. If anything, it's people like vollkan and oman, who are taking a much more active stance against him. So he's got well-thought-out posts. That doesn't make him an evil Kabenon-slaying mastermind.

There have been two people who have been pushing this idea of Justin-as-mastermind: LaptopGun and Shteven. I'm suspecting that one of you, at least, is scum, especially if Kabenon is revealed to be town. If Kabenon is town, you have a scapegoat to blame on Day 3. Also, neither of you are voting for Kabenon at all, which could give you a bit of an "I told you so" edge if Kabenon turns up scum.

Justin himself has just put the spotlight on Shteven in regards to this discrepancy, but I thought that I would call it to light for LaptopGun as well. I don't understand why either of you feel that Justin is running this Kabenon lynch, nor do I understand why LaptopGun has not yet voted for Kabenon, despite suspicions that you have stated numerous times throughout the game. So, LG, if you could address this, I'd appreciate it; hopefully before Kabenon gets lynched.

I'm not going to hammer Kabenon, because I want to get this last issue addressed, but I know that it's only a matter of time, even if he happens to be town.

Now if it's not odd enough that you appear to be defending Justin in the earlier post, this next one is. I've changed the font to blue in your quote to draw attention.

You mention that you made an earlier statement something like 'if Justin ends up dead and town, that Shteven or LTG were very likely scum.'

A couple of things here:

- I don't recall you ever mentioning Justin dying before it happened, and I suspect that you're referring to the 'waffly Kab post' where you defended Justin. Did you suspect that Justin would die when you posted the 'waffly Kab post'?

- As you've gone after LTG on several occasions prior (I'm not showing the posts here) this post could be showing a link between you and Shteven. Thoughts?

All right, I'm finally back, and I'm ready to review what has gone on in my absence. Thus far, nothing has occurred to sway my opinion regarding Spacecase. I still think that his actions at the end of Day 2 are scummy, and none of his explanations thus far have been particularly explanatory regarding his flip-flopping.

As for people who haven't been discussed thus far who I feel are scummy, I think that the most obvious one is Wesaq/Melody Man/Dahill. Over the course of 3 days, the three of them as a whole have contributed almost nothing, and I am one of the few people who has pointed this out. Dahill, I'd much rather hear your opinions on the game than you asking other people for theirs. It may be a 20+ page game, but that's no excuse. You knew what you were getting into when you decided to replace, so if you weren't up to 20 pages of reading, you shouldn't have replaced in.

There's only one other thing that I noticed. In a quick review of the thread,

I noticed that I made a post earlier stating that if Justin Playfair was found to be dead and town, that either LG or Shteven was likely to be scum for pushing a Justin-as-Mastermind-of-Kabenon's Demise theory. LG's innocence has been stated by Jesse/Cipher, who is incredibly likely to be pro-town, and thus he is likely to be pro-town as well. As such, there is the possibility that Shteven is scum. However, my earlier statement was just a random thought, nothing concrete, and nothing that Shteven has done recently has seemed overly scummy to me. However, I may take a look back to review his overall behavior, just to be safe

.

The main thing that really strikes me is that you cuddled up to Justin right before he was killed. The fact that you may have slipped up and said you knew he was going to die before-hand is even more intriguing...

[MadCrawdad]

Forgot to add this to my previous post:

FoS: Rigel

[MadCrawdad]

I haven't really been reading Rigel heavily. I'm on my mobile so I won't be reading. if anyone doesn't mind showing me why they think he is town/scum, I would love to read it over the next few days.

Yeah, about that Oman... I just noticed that you've got your vote parked on Rigel. Probably a good idea if you knew why.

I'd like a response from Rigel.

LML: While others may find what you are saying fairly obvious, I am not sure what you're getting at with the "protection" thing. Yes, it's odd he'd say it practically out of the blue. Are you saying that's why it's scummy, that someone who's on the town would never react like that? Is the idea he'd say that to try to draw attention away from a scum buddy?

Fairly simple.

Someone completely over-reacted when a different person had one vote levied on them. Overreaction is a keen way to find scum, since they are tenser (they have something to hide.)

I think Rigel is a completely viable look right now.

NO HE ISN'T!

(Irony)

Anyway

Vote Rigel

and

FoS: Phate

for doing the same thing "I don't think he is scum, but lets lynch him anyway" = Scummy!

[MadCrawdad]

As for your big post, I already told you what my "real thought on Kab" was at the time.

I'm not sure what to think about this.

I was on the fence; I could see both sides of the issue. I didn't vote Kab, but I didn't want to; I wanted to address some issues yet before the end of the day.

You say you didn't want to vote Kab. Fine. Then why do you say, in closing, that you weren't going to hammer Kabenon because you wanted to get a last issue resolved? This definitely implies that if not for whatever issue, that you would have hammered Kab.

I'm not going to hammer Kabenon, because I want to get this last issue addressed, but I know that it's only a matter of time, even if he happens to be town.

You really seemed to be very wishy-washy with regard to taking a stance on Kabenon. If your real point was, as you claim, that you weren't sure what to think, then why post that? Seriously. How many people post just to say 'I'm not sure what to think...' How does that help the town?

---

However, I see exactly what you mean regarding my quote in blue. However, there is a simple explanation for this: I screwed up. I completely misread my post regarding the Justin-as-Mastermind theory when I referenced it, or I typed in Justin Playfair instead of Kabenon in the critical point. I'm thinking the second one, but the first option is plausible as well. However, seeing as how both of them did die and turn up town, it's something worth looking into.

Nope, in looking at the two posts, it's clear that you were blaming Shteven and LTG for 'framing' Justin for the Kabenon wagon. I believe that you blamed Oman and vollkan for the Kab wagon in general.

The fact that you mentioned Shteven and LTG when you mentioned Justin ending up dead absolutely confirms for me that you didn't mean to refer to Kabenon.

That you would even try to pass it off as you accidentally saying 'Justin' when you meant to say 'Kabenon' is highly suspicious. Anyone looking at the posts (331 & 528) can clearly see that you meant to refer to Justin.

---

I don't like the way Shteven is trying to backpedal his way out of the situation he has found himself in. He agrees with my point, it seems, but the fact that he appears to be now attempting to deny that he ever said such a thing is making me wonder two things: if he was trying to buddy up to me and is now getting caught in the backlash,

and if my point is actually a viable one

. Seeing as how Shteven is now attempting to escape suspicion, I'm beginning to grow less certain about Spacecase. Not enough to unvote him at this point, but I am keeping an eye on Shteven now.

FOS: Shteven

Here's the thing, Rigel. You've already tried to clarify the point to your 'let's lynch SC regardless of affiliation,' by saying this:

@MadCrawdad: I don't feel that you're taking the post that you are quoting in the context of my argument. I'm not saying that we should lynch any player regardless of alignment. I'm saying that we should lynch a scummy player who isn't contributing to the game for the sake of the town as a whole.

If you really meant that your original point was to lynch a scummy player who isn't contributing to the game, then why are you now rethinking the viability of it? Lynching scummy players who aren't helping the town is pretty much the whole idea of the game.

The fact that your're claiming to wonder about the viability of your point makes it seem like your original point was to lynch regardless of thoughts on affiliation. The clarification (lynch a scummy player who isn't helping the town) really wouldn't need rethinking, would it?

It really looks like you're doing some back-pedalling of your own, Rigel.

[MadCrawdad]

Hey, everyone, I'll be replacing farside. I've given the game a sort of semi-skimmed readthrough already, and I'm pretty happy with my vote where it is at the moment.

LaptopGun, is there any particular reason that you're still voting for a claimed doctor?

I'll give the game a more detailed read before deadline, but for now, if you guys have any concerns about my predecessor that you'd like me to address, I'll give it a try, though I can't guarantee that I'll know what she was thinking.

Any thoughts upon further review of the thread?

[MadCrawdad]

Unofficial vote count

Spacecase - 4 (Rigel, TheFonz, Shteven, Phate)

Rigel - 3 (LoudmouthLee, Oman, dahill1)

dahill1 - 1 (farside22/iam)

Phate - 1 (LaptopGun)

Shteven - 1 (MadCrawdad)

Not voting - 3 (Cipher, Spacecase, vollkan)

[MadCrawdad]

Unofficial Vote Count

Spacecase - 6 (Rigel, TheFonz, Shteven, Phate, Iamausername, LaptopGun)

Rigel - 4 (LoudmouthLee, Oman, dahill1, vollkan)

Shteven - 1 (MadCrawdad)

Not voting - 2 (Cipher, Spacecase)

[MadCrawdad]

It looks like the runoff will be between SC and Rigel...

Having helped build cases against the both of them, I like the case against Rigel better. The statement about Justin ending up dead and innocent, makes me think that he knew that Justin would end up dead in the 'waffly Kabenon' post (where he seemingly cozied up to Justin by defending him against LTG and Shteven).

unvote, vote: Rigel

I would like to see SC and Cipher vote as soon as possible to see where we stand...

[MadCrawdad]

According to my clock, night should have fallen over an hour ago. It hasn't though, and I'm uncomfortable going to bed with a vote tally that can be tied up by a single vote (and therefore force a no-lynch situation).

It's clear that SC was the winning vote getter. To prevent a situation (however unlikely) where SC casts a tying vote before TinVision calls night...

unvote

[MadCrawdad]

That's either an honorable move or another odd move on your part MCD.

Nothing honorable or odd about it...we need a lynch. Whether SC is town or scum, if he were to pop onto the thread last night, chances are he'd vote for Rigel over himself (and therefore tie things up). I simply prevented that from happening.