PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Mgm]

/confirm.

[Mgm]

Vote: Gorrad

[Mgm]

Lastly:
Welcome to the game MGM, why did you put a sixth vote on gorrad?

Various reasons:
1) His speculations don´t give of a totally innocent vibe.
2) This game is pretty big, I want to shorten the random vote period and get some speed in the game.
3) I just feel like bandwagoning today.

[Mgm]

Why not, hasdgfas?

Why not what?

He was responding to your post right above his. If you scroll up a bit you can see exactly what he responded to.

Claus, I would hold it against you if you read long posts in a little less detail than all the others, but skipping them entirely is unforgivable -

FOS: Claus

Gorrad, it's not the discussing of the setup that is scummy, it is the manner in which you and Mr. Iammars are doing so.

[Mgm]

Apologies, I retract the last sentence of that post. I should re-read rather than relying on memory.

Gorrad, it's not the discussing of the setup that is scummy, it is the manner in which you and Mr. Iammars are doing so.

Unvote, Vote: Mgm

Where did Iammars speculate on setup? His only posts are his confirm and a random vote.

Fair point, I thought I read someone else besides Gorrad commenting on the setup and it seems like I mistakenly put Iammars name with it.

Sorry Iammars, Happy B-day.

Am I missing something important from the reasoning against Mars? All I can see is that he confirmed in pirate speak, which may imply that he is a Ninjascum who thought that the Pirates are the town and the Ninja's are the scum, which is possible I suppose, but I think it's much more likely that he did it just for a joke.

There is a much easier explanation: he could just simply be a pirate.

[Mgm]

We can lynch Gorrad tomorrow. Iammars is for today.

What exactly leads you to putting Iammars before Gorrad?

[Mgm]

Well explained Erg0, that's pretty much what I was on about.

I really fail to see how someone confirming in piratespeak is a decent basis for a vote, it is a very questionable scumtell that has a simpler possible explaination about it.

How did you come to the conclusion that piratespeak is a "questionable scumtell". That requires the assumption that pirates are scum.

You've slipped up. You're a ninja, aren't you?

[Mgm]

There's probably a pirate cop and doc, as well as a ninja cop and doc- a fact supported by DGB's role.

Really? As far as I can tell, DGB was a Cop who found Pirates, which doesn't really imply anything to me.

Why not? If there was someone who found pirates, it makes sense to have someone who find ninjas. Otherwise the pirates would be at an unfair disadvantage which messes up the balance of the game.

[Mgm]

Guardian, at the end of your last post, you mentioned hasd and something to do with putting a 5th vote on someone. As far as I can tell, hasd hasn't put a 5th vote on someone, or mentioned anything about it, did you mean Claus?

Why even call someone out on a 5th vote, when I've been called out on a 6th one?

[Mgm]

As for Mars, he's getting a good number of votes while he's not at his computer. The logic behind his bandwagon is the biggest tell I've seen in the game so far, so normally I'd vote him, but I'd rather give him a chance to say his peace than add one more vote to the list of ones he gets while not able to explain himself.

So what tell did you see?

[Mgm]

Second -- MGM, are you saying you find me suspicious for calling someone out for a 5th vote?

I haven't decided yet. First I'd like to hear you answer my question.

[Mgm]

I still don't like your mystic-like air of suspicion, or the level of secrecy that envelops your posts. I almost want to reveal what I think you might be thinking, to get this out in the open.

There was nothing mysterious. Anyone with half a brain could think of at least one additional reason without it being explicitly mentioned...if they wanted to.

I don't like the Iammars wagon:
He confirmed with pirate flavor. This either implies he is a pirate or that he tries to appear like a pirate. The whole reasoning that he is ninja scum trying to look like an innocent pirate requires far too much assumptions.

Is there anything else? If not, Iammars should NOT be lynched today.

[Mgm]

Both: both of your suggestions make the assumption that scum would post without any foresight or consideration whatsoever.

How many people were dead during confirms?

Since when do people have to die before scum start using their brains? Scum can already post with foresight and consideration from the moment they get their role.

[Mgm]

If we want to use confirmation posts as scumtells, why hasn't anyone brought up mbf's post where he said he would enjoy playing with mbl?

The same could be said about TSQ who suggested lynching DGB pregame...

[Mgm]

I have paper notes up until post 145. I need quite some time to catch up in that department (so if my posting drops you know why that is.

I should actually

Unvote

since Mgm has clarified.

Based on the Iammars mess, I'm tossing up between Thesp, Guardian and Gorrad right now. I'm going to reread all three and see what I come up with.

Ergo pretty much summarized my thoughts. I suspect those three as well. Since Guardian made various solid points about Thesp, I suspect Thesp more than Guardian and I am considering switching my vote to Thesp.

I need to do some rereading but there are various false assumptions floating around that need to be rectified. The people who make them are either not paying attention or trying to manipulate others to eliminate an opposing team.

One such false assumption is that since the pirate finder is town, pirates must be scum. Let's wait for a dead pirate before we draw any conclusions. Personally, I think ninjas and pirates are two separate factions as the game implies that both include scum.

[Mgm]

...but aren't entirely composed of scum

[Mgm]

Unvote: Gorrad; Vote: Thesp

[Mgm]

I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas.
-->In this game, pirates oppose ninjas.
I am ninja scum
There is a town, and I as scum oppose them.
-->Pirates are town.

You consider that to be an unreasonably large leap of logic?

Yes.

The fault here is that he assumed Iammars was scum when the same line of reasoning can be applied with a different starting point. Let me demonstrate:
1. I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas
2. In the game pirates oppose ninjas
3. I'm pirate town.
4. There is a scum opposing the town.
5. Ninjas must be scum.

See? The same line of reasoning applies just fine with other assumptions.
Assuming he is scum based on piratey confirmation is a very unreasonable large leap of logic.

[Mgm]

I don't see why people are going after Thesp and not Guardian/TSQ, who were equally bad in pushing a silly wagon and IMHO did less in trying to analyze it/justify their reasons.

I find everyone who's pushng or advocating a silly wagon suspicious, but unfortunately I can only vote one of them. I switched to Thesp because I thought, at the time, his wagon had more steam than that of Gorrad, but I could just as easily switch back. Also, as far as I know Thesp is the more experienced player of the two, so he should know better.

For some reason TSQ hasn't been all that visible on my scumdar, but if he's acting similar to Thesp and Guardian, he's definitely deserving of a spot on my suspect list.

[Mgm]

Also, it's not my fault I never heard about my character before, and Wikipedia sure isn't helping me.

And how does this post say that I can't find it in Wikipedia?

Wikipedia just isn't helping me determine whether or not my character is a pirate.

Let's try a different route. Did your character command a ship?

[Mgm]

The fault here is that he assumed Iammars was scum when the same line of reasoning can be applied with a different starting point. Let me demonstrate:
1. I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas
2. In the game pirates oppose ninjas
3. I'm pirate town.
4. There is a scum opposing the town.
5. Ninjas must be scum.

See? The same line of reasoning applies just fine with other assumptions.

We fixed that potential argument by asking Iammars if he was a pirate. He said he was not. Try again.

The very same applies to the non-ninja non-pirate roles.

[Mgm]

Mgm, what do you think of Gorrad?

I've shared my thoughts on the Iammars wagon before and how Gorrad tries to reason it to be a good wagon makes me suspect of him. However, since he is less experienced than you (Thesp) as far as I can determine, He's level-pegging with Guardian in my list of top suspects.

MGM's play has seemed very superficial and he has been going for "available"/easy targets. I'm equally unimpressed with the depth of his thinking. I'm not sure to what extent, if any, this has to say about his alignment, however.

Yes, you're totally correct, my play is totally superficial and unimpressive and it's not impressing me either. That's because it's day 1 with very little solid information to go on. It's going to be a lot better day 2.

[Mgm]

MGM's play has seemed very superficial and he has been going for "available"/easy targets. I'm equally unimpressed with the depth of his thinking. I'm not sure to what extent, if any, this has to say about his alignment, however.

Yes, you're totally correct, my play is totally superficial and unimpressive and it's not impressing me either. That's because it's day 1 with very little solid information to go on. It's going to be a lot better day 2.

This line of thought simply

must

go away from every mafia player's line of thought.

This is never a good excuse. This is a cop-out.

I could go around making spurious and baseless accusations, but I prefer to say useful stuff that actually makes sense.

[Mgm]

Everyone else please weigh in ASAP before Gorrad's alignment is known:

1) Was that a good vig or a bad vig?

2) Thesp is public enemy #2. Should we run him up next?

Not necessarily a bad target, but like hasdfg I would've preferred giving him a chance to claim. We should definitely run up Thesp -- or even better: lynch him.

[Mgm]

Do you think it would be worthwhile to find this information out? A Pirate-finder could catch scum in a lie, and a vig cannot (largely speaking). This is in part why I still ponder whether or not it would be wise to make everyone claim pirate/ninja/neither - I'm not sure how useful it would be to the scum to know what townies are pirates/ninjas. If I were certain it wouldn't be useful to them, I'd press for it hardcore, because even scum lie here, there is something to catch them on (and I don't think townies would lie about this).

So exactly what would be the advantage of lying for the scum? Not lying means you cannot be caught in the lie.

[Mgm]

I'm going to have to agree with Thesp on his point that going for the vigilante over the cop was a bad move. Town can lynch. That's what they do. A cop lets you do that more accurately. However, I don't think complaining about it is going to undo anything.

In any other situation I would have agreed, but DGB wasn't a regular cop. He was a flavor cop, which yields a lot less helpful results.

I also don't agree that MBL should've made his own decision on a vig target. A single player rarely makes better decision than a combined town in this regard.

[Mgm]

Conspiring about a secret with a scum isn't a scumtell? I'm not arguing for Thok being scum. I arguing that, assuming Thesp is scum, Thok may be scum with Thesp.

Of course conspiring with a scum is a scumtell, but we can't make the assumption that is what is going on until Thesp is dead and confirmed scum.

Why isn't he hanging yet?

[Mgm]

Well explained Erg0, that's pretty much what I was on about.

I really fail to see how someone confirming in piratespeak is a decent basis for a vote, it is a very questionable scumtell that has a simpler possible explaination about it.

How did you come to the conclusion that piratespeak is a "questionable scumtell". That requires the assumption that pirates are scum.

You've slipped up. You're a ninja, aren't you?

I'm the one arguing against it being a scumtell at all, never mind a questionable one. IMO, you're jumping to conclusions and throwing mud around without reading the thread properly, which is very

FOS

worthy IMO.

No, I'm the one arguing it's not a scumtell at all. You said it was a "questionable scumtell". That implies it is a scumtell to begin with. What you say you're arguing doesn't match what you actually said.

THAT is word a

FOS

.

[Mgm]

Thesp:
What about me makes you uncomfortable?

Don't bother with the chit chat. Just lynch him already.

[Mgm]

Hooray, we've entered the "I dunno, let's just lynch Kscope" phase of the day!

No, I'm the one arguing it's not a scumtell at all. You said it was a "questionable scumtell". That implies it is a scumtell to begin with. What you say you're arguing doesn't match what you actually said.

THAT is word a FOS.

This seems like a really weak semantic argument to me.

It might be a semantic argument, but it's a bleeping contradiction. That is not weak.

And my list wasn't as much a LoAtP but a post where I put down all of my thoughts as I was reading the thread and organized them by the player list for ease of reading.
So your post, which had a list of all the players with your comments on each player, was not a list of all the players? I'm a bit baffled how you might justify saying that.

It was exactly what he said: all the responses he needed to give sorted by the player who asked them. Even if that IS a LOATP, I fail to see how that is a bad thing. Would you rather he didn't answer questions aimed at him?

[Mgm]

And now with proper quotation marks:

Hooray, we've entered the "I dunno, let's just lynch Kscope" phase of the day!

No, I'm the one arguing it's not a scumtell at all. You said it was a "questionable scumtell". That implies it is a scumtell to begin with. What you say you're arguing doesn't match what you actually said.

THAT is word a FOS.

This seems like a really weak semantic argument to me.

It might be a semantic argument, but it's a bleeping contradiction. That is not weak.

And my list wasn't as much a LoAtP but a post where I put down all of my thoughts as I was reading the thread and organized them by the player list for ease of reading.

So your post, which had a list of all the players with your comments on each player, was not a list of all the players? I'm a bit baffled how you might justify saying that.

It was exactly what he said: all the responses he needed to give sorted by the player who asked them. Even if that IS a LOATP, I fail to see how that is a bad thing. Would you rather he didn't answer questions aimed at him?

[Mgm]

Thesp: I don't want to lynch you nomore. We should be getting rid of scummy and lurky players early in the game, not scummy and wordy players.

I care to disagree. Lurking players can be replaced and in my experience lurkers rarely turn out to be scum on a day one lynch.

Also, if you believe scummy lurkers should be lynched, why go after Iammars? He's not the shining example of participation, but there are plenty of people who are worse lurking offenders.

On another note: I expect a lynch within the next 3 days. We don't want to lynch hours before the deadline only to have the target make a believable claim without enough time for an alternative lynch.

[Mgm]

Iammars hasn't really been active in any of his games, I'm not willing to vote him for it. I really don't see a case for K-Scope, and it looks like a scumwagon to me (

FoS: Mgm

). Right now, Thesp is the best lynch. However, I really don't want a d1 no-lynch, so if it's getting too close to deadline I'll reanalyse.

Huh? What has the Kscope wagon got to do with me?

You want to get rid of one of the most vocal proactive townies.

How could you possibly know he is a townie on day one? Sounds like a slip.

Unvote: Thesp

Vote: Guardian

[Mgm]

MGM - read my post just above yours. Nobody knows who's townie in this game.*

NOBODY.

So how is that a scumtell? He's referring to himself for god's sake.



*MrBuddy Lee exception applies. And even then only mostly.

When he made the comment he was talking about Thesp.

[Mgm]

There's also a false dilemna here: it's possible for scum to be active and for town to lurk. I'm not attacking you for being vocal, but for being vocal in a way that seems scummy and pressing bandwagons with bad reasons on people I believe to be protown.

Good posting! You took the words from my mouth.

I've been swapped with a lot of people, congratz on a first for Mgm though.

I would understand being swapped with MBL and MBF but how did you manage this feat, Gorrad?

[Mgm]

You're right. Serves me right. I shouldn't have read the thread when my brain was still full of work-related stuff. Consider the vote retracted for now.

Unvote: Guardian

[Mgm]

cicero, I can sympathise as I've been in a similar position in the past - but there's no need to lynch the lurker

immediately

. The first few kills tend to thin them out a bit, and we get much more information from wagonning more active players than pursuing easy lurker lynches.

The time is never right, it seems. Yes... we will get more information now. But we might pay for it dearly later. And lots of info is upcoming anyway, with nightkills, investigations and what not. Which means from a town strategy viewpoint, after a robust day like this, if you can spot someone who is likely not going to become an active contributor and will therefore remain opaque, an excellent strategy would be to wagon and possibly lynch that person.

Ah well. That's my counterpoint to "lynch all lurkers" is dumb. Do with it what you will y'all. You know my feelings.

If we lynch lurkers rather than scummy players, we might not get to an endgame. Being vocal doesn't mean someone should be exempt from getting lynched. Besides, I doubt that in a Stoofer game we will end up with an endgame where people coasted through without posting. They will be replaced before it gets that far.

[Mgm]

Votes on Gorrad increase the number of votes required to lynch without actually adding something useful. They should disappear ASAP (read: Right Now)

[Mgm]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]We still have 6 days, so I see no reasons to change my mind now. Vote is staying.[/quote] We don't have 6 days. We want to have some spare time to make an alternative decision if it is needed. Also, Twomz might not be a mason, but a single vote on him isn't going to ignite a bandwagon in time. At least not soon enough to be in time for the deadline.

[Mgm]

Also, I read something of Guardian's that confused me.

Again this makes me think we should get a lurker. I (wooh look, diverting attention to the biggest wagon) am beginning to appreciate the wagon on Kscope. I think Iammars is better, but heck, Kscope has a better shot at being scum than me, and his play right now would be GREAT play as scum in the Thok scumhunting world.

Guardian, why do you think Kscop has a better shot at being scum than you? Also, why would his play of active lurking be great? Furthermore, why do you want to go after lurkers?

At least Kscope is contributing something (even if it is not helpful).

Mod

, can we have the inactives replaced?

[Mgm]

Thok seems to only really be considering active posters in his scum hunting, which made me say Kscope's lurking would be ideal play to get around Thok's scrutiny.

Yeah sure, avoid scrutiny by Thok by lurking is an 'ideal play' IF you don't take into account the other 20-odd players in the game. That is Crap Logic(TM) if I ever saw it. Stop fuelling this senseless wagon.

I think my vote is just in the right place, even though the mod forgot about my earlier unvote in that last count.

[Mgm]

To clarify:
1. I don't believe lynching Kscope will give us any information beyond his alignment.
2. I don't believe lurking is a sign of scumhood. It is a sign of 'real life' and 'taking on too many games'.

[Mgm]

Mgm, it would be so much easier to take you seriously if you had

any

idea of the context of me bringing that up -- something you'd get by reading the past page.

I do. You keep bringing up, the "I'm active, so lynch someone less active" argument and it simply isn't flying with me. Besides, I don't care if you take me seriously. I care much more for the opinion of the other players who don't have a vested interest in the argument I'm attacking.

[Mgm]

BTW: 730 and 731 were simulposted.

[Mgm]

The context was that cicero was wondering why any scum would behave the way you were doing; my point was that I'd expect you to be aggressive independent of your alignment, so that cicero's comment about scum wouldn't necessarily be applicable to you.

I can see Guardian scum being very aggressive. Please don't misrepresent me if you can help it.

How is this possibly a misrepresentation? Your comment about seeing Guardian acting that way as scum was made after my comment about Guardian, and was a reaction to the comment I made about Guardian.

You mean this post?

You are not reading closely or I'm not understanding how you use the term. Let me break it down into quick and dirty shorthand:

Your point - Guardian is scum because he is pushing a disingenuous case against Iammars.

My point - whether Guardian is scum or whether he is town I think he believes his case against Iammars.

It has nothing to do with how active or how aggressive he is. We can argue about whether Guardian-scum would aggressively push shit cases against townies. Maybe he would. (Guardian himself points out correctly that this falls prey to WIFOM.) But I am NOT saying "Thesp and Guardian post a lot. Therefore they must be town." or "Thesp and Guardian ask a lot of questions and push cases against other players, therefore they must be town."

My point should be clear on re-read.

[Mgm]

I made the argument for lynching lurkers on day one already. Less information now (when we can afford it) in return for more information later (when we need it even more). It's a long-term strategic choice. Choose it or don't.

As for information we might gain.. did anyone else besides me notice Rocco Carne hop on the Kscope wagon? How could he justify such a thing? Wagon seems to have born possible fruit to me already.

If we go for this sort of 'strategic choices' we won't even make the end game to get the 'later' information. As for Rosso Carne, just seems easy lazy wagoning to me.

[Mgm]

If an Iammars wagon appears out of thin air, I'll join it gladly. Otherwise, a scope lynch is better than a me-lynch.

I'm of the mindset that if Scope has something to claim, he should claim it soon. If we're not lynching him, we need to find someone other than he or I in the span of 5 days.

In other words, you want to survive and would lynch badly to make it happen. There are other choices than you and Kscope, but you make no effort to look at other suspects. That first para is just a false dilemma.

[Mgm]

<snip>

Mgm -- originally voted me because he misread my post in which I said Thok was trying to lynch a town player -- I am that town player. I obviously know that. duh.

<snip>
I've decided that no matter what, I'll stick through this game, unlike Big Love Mafia, but the reasons for voting me here are just as bullshit as the reasons for voting me there were.

I maintain that there is a wagon on me largely, if not exclusively, because I am the most prolific poster and proactive player and there are more of my posts/actions to attack

.

Mafia games want to ENCOURAGE posting, not DISCOURAGE it. Thok MGM & Mars's reasons are all bullshit, and Erg0's reason is at best misguided.

Yeah, my original reason wasn't good, but you fail to mention or even guess why I'm currently voting you.

On the second paragraph. You can maintain all you want, and bolding doesn't help, but there are plenty of people who can be both prolific and non-scummy. If you didn't push crap cases you wouldn't be voted at all even if you were prolific.

[Mgm]

It's a confirmation post - the game proper hasn't even started yet. That's like arguing that what someone said in the signup thread is game-relevant (I am aware that this has already happened).

In the signup thread, we haven't gotten our roles yet.

IN the confirmation thread, we HAD gotten our roles, and stoofer said to treat it as part of night 1. Clearly you see the difference, nO????

Let's assume for a moment that it is game relevant: how could you possibly know at the very first post in the game whether pirates or ninjas are scum without being scum yourself?

[Mgm]

But I'm not going to accept that it's already determined that our choice is that narrow.

So you think there is enough time to drum up votes for another wagon within 48 hours?

[Mgm]

But I'm not going to accept that it's already determined that our choice is that narrow.

So you think there is enough time to drum up votes for another wagon within 48 hours?

There may be. It would be remiss of me not to at least try.

I'd rather not rely on chance to determine if we get a day 1 lynch.

[Mgm]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Hi Thesp,

Your post is far from contributing, merely pushing a lynch.

Kisses[/quote] And exactly how is pushing a lynch when we're near deadline not contributing?

[Mgm]

Typical! We are nearing deadline and we have had no activity in the last 6 hours. Start talking people. We're on the clock.

[Mgm]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Well, I guess I could stir up some discussion by my claim now, so here it comes.

I'm Bill Clinton, a lover. So yes, I don't want to get lynched.[/quote] A lover as in the role? If there are any more specifics about your role, it's best you claim them too, because I doubt this claim is going to put anyone on the wagon off lynching you.

[Mgm]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Yes, the lover role. And there aren't any other specifics to tell, because I'm not going to tell who my other lover is for obvious reasons.[/quote] Of course, I just want to make sure it's the standard lover role without any twists, so I have a clear picture of what you are claiming.

Please answer Gorrad's question too.

[Mgm]

I don't trust the lover claim, but there's no way he's surviving to the endgame with it.

Unvote: Kaleidoscope, Vote: Skruffs.

I will move/remove it in a heartbeat to ensure a lynch. by the end of Saturday. That said, I think Guardian should claim, and get inevitabilities out of the way.

(And I also echo Gorrad's question.)

Can you be a bit more specific as to why you don't trust that claim?

[Mgm]

Unvote: Guardian

Not sure I believe he targeted MBL, but I'm not going to lynch him.

Vote: Thesp

[Mgm]

I think my repeated disapproval of a Thesp wagon should be clear. He hasn't had any of the sort of kind of wishy-washiness that I see in Guardian/TSQ in terms of choosing their targets (take look at Guardian/TSQ's posts and you'll see a bunch of "Eh, I could see X as scum" comments that never get followed up on unless X is actually being wagonned; this suggests that Thesp actually has standards for his bandwagons while Guardian/TSQ are scum trying to get whatever wagon they can take.

Nothing of the sort: it merely suggests Thesp is more careful and covert than Guardian and TSQ. Scumbags are rarely this blatant and if they are, I doubt more than one scum are going to apply the same dangerous strategy this early in the game.

I think calling Guardian out for being the only fictional non-main character leaves enough space to lynch him, but -given the choice- I'd rather lynch Thesp and see if Guardian can come up with some clarifying results before opting to lynch him.

[Mgm]

Post 938 second paragraph. You describe them as posting crap to see what sticks and forms a wagon to follow. That is about as blatant as you can get.

[Mgm]

Mod, do you have a specific time in mind for the deadline tomorrow?

[Mgm]

If that is true, why is no one removing those useless votes, or actually working towards an attainable wagon?

[Mgm]

Mod

, do you have any intention of replacing Rosso Carne if he is alive by the end of the day?

[Mgm]

If that is not an ongoing game, you'd better quote/link it.

[Mgm]

MBL, why did you kill Xtoxm?

[Mgm]

I think Guardian should reveal his result. The reason people chose to lynch Rosso Carne instead of Guardian was to enable him to get a result to confirm him. Not revealing that result now would defeat the whole point of the excersize (sic?).

In other news:

Vote: Thesp

[Mgm]

Remember how you were all anti-IH somewhere around day three or four... Romanus (your scum buddy) was the second leading wagon behind Aimee.

You continud voting IH (A non wagon), allowing Aimee to be lynched instead of Romanus, even though you said Aimee was most likely town AND that romanus was your second place scum.

Your reasoning was because IH was 'more scummy' to you, or some such.

I think you posted in the wrong thread, Skruffs.

[Mgm]

Question for Guardian: If Xtoxm was really "the person you were most cetain was protown", why didn't you say anything when he was coming under pressure yesterday for his OMGUS vote on me?

1) Hyperbole. Gorrad & Cow were more town to me, as was MBL, as was Scope after claim.

2) He wasn't anywhere near being lynched.

3) We *had* a discussion about how it is bad to post those who I am getting high town vibes from.

While Xtoxm wasn't anywhere near being lynched, we did have a known vig alive and Xtoxm was a likely vig candidate the way yesterday ended (moreover, there was a nontrivial chance he could have been today's wagon.) And there's a difference between randomly saying "hey here's a bunch of people I find protown" near a deadline when it can't help and going "Hey stop attacking X. He's likely town for these reasons and attacking him is misguided."

Xtoxm wasn't even a top 3 bandwagon. How could he possibly be a good vig target?

[Mgm]

Interesting developments. I'll sleep on those revelations and make a decision when I wake up tomorrow. Some response from Ergo with regard to Guardian's claim would be helpful in making that decision.

[Mgm]

MGM - read me and Guardian's last several posts before making assumptions.

Guardian already made the point I was intending to make; We don't know what a "goblin" is. For all we know, "goblin" might be hobbittese for "power role". On the other hand, it DOES explain Guardian's secondary name claim.

Twomz, actually, I just did some googling for you:
Samwise may be a "Goblin Miller".

Your defense of Guardian is noted. The point has already been made. If that was true, Guardian wouldn't have to lie about it.

[Mgm]

Unvote: Thesp,
Vote: Guardian