PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Thestatusquo]

Vote: Confirm

[Thestatusquo]

I enjoy the fact that MBF just gave a homily.

[Thestatusquo]

Who's up for lynching DGB? Lets make a challenge of it and see if we can do it by page 4.

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The iammars points are excellent for a day one wagon, in addition,

FOS: Jordan

for making a point, and then attempting to piggyback on a different point with the same impact made by someone else. The points weren't even close to the same thing, and for jordan to act like that was what he was trying to say all along is disingenuous.

Vote: Iammars

Pressure for the good case.

[Thestatusquo]

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Did you read space monkeys at all?

[Thestatusquo]

YOu really think that gorrad not only saw that Thesp was trying to out people, AND thought it would be a strategic choice to point it out so as to foil the plan? I think you give him way too much credit.

[Thestatusquo]

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Did you read space monkeys at all?

Yes, and it illustrates my point. The Space Monkeys knew they were the mafia from the start, thus they would not immediately claim Space Monkey and out themselves. The gorillas

thought

they were scum and thus also would not reveal their real roles at the start of the game. The setup was certainly deceptive, but it was done in such a way as to prevent players (especially scum) from immediately shooting themselves in the foot.

No, it does NOT support your point. In fact, twito was outed PRECISELY because he effectively claimed scum. The space monkeys knew they were the scum, but they didn't know that the town thought that they were scum too. This led to the scenario where twito outed himself.

[Thestatusquo]

Wow. You know what, I'm completely wrong here. I just reread the relevant portion of the game, and there is absolutely no claim to be a space monkey there. I could have sworn there was, and further, I could have sworn it was twito. I completely retract my statements, and will sit humbly in a corner for a while.

Thok, if you want to continue voting me because I miss recolected a game I read several months ago, then thats fine, but it's at least a little bit ridiuclous to assume I was deliberately trying to misslead, what with players who played that game in this one, and the distinct lack of benefit to me even if my falsehood weren't discovered.

[Thestatusquo]

My few posts? Way to poison my well. I've been V/LA this weekend judging a debate tournament, so I wasn't even here when the thread opened up. Since I've gotten back today at 5, I've made 3-4 posts.

FOS:Thok

for the blatant attempt to poison my well by claiming on lurking, but not actually coming out and saying it.

Not only that, but even if you buy that I have "Made few posts" and been "opportunistic in them" he's extrapolating a completely new warrant for the vote which was nowhere in the text of the original vote.

Lets look at those few posts that you say are "Opportunistic"


Post one, I give original evidence about jordan coupled with a FOS which is completely valid logically. I tell you that jordan made a claim "Ockhams razor states that it was more likely that it was joking" and then later tries to claim that the argument that Ergo was making was the one he was trying to make all along through by saying "Well put, Ergo that's pretty much what I was on about" when Ergos claim was "The setup assumptions are too great."

Then I put Iammars at an "oppotunistic" -6 from lynch because pressure wagons at the begining of day one NEVER happen.

Then there's a post which I'll talk about in a sec.

Then I DEFEND someone, not sure how that's "opportunistic"

Then I make the argument about space monkeys, which thok says he's "Willing to accept was just [TSQ] not remembering the game" Apparently, he's not, because it's the only post I make this game which could even come close to being the kind of posting pattern he's talking about.

In addition, the fact that I completely retracted shows that I'm not caring about how I'm looking to others, which is almost a complete contradiction to what he just asserted.

Fos#2 Thok

For completely being untruthful about my posts.

Bold Tag fixed by mod

[Thestatusquo]

Obviously that would be great if the mod fixed that tag.

[Thestatusquo]

So your response to me proving everything you said is wrong is "Wow youre over reacting"

[Thestatusquo]

K, well obviously you wouldn't. I think the rest of the town will disagree.

[Thestatusquo]

Happy birthday Iammars!

[Thestatusquo]

fos:gorrad

That doesn't ring true to me.

[Thestatusquo]

Thank you, Thesp, that was exactly what I was getting at. The only other response for Iammars to make would be "Oh...Fuck, I guess you caught me. I'll vote myself now." For you to be satisfied with his response presupposes that you really weren't suspicious of him in the first place, in which case, why the pressure? Hence my FoS.

[Thestatusquo]

Wifom.

[Thestatusquo]

1) Thok, I was clearly responding to gorrad, who I had FOSed in my previous post, and not clause. Are you reading my posts at all?

2) I'm leaching off of a day 1 page 9 pressure wagon which is not even halfway to lynch? Thats a good one, thok.

[Thestatusquo]

Thok. Bandwagons are good d1. I take plenty of credit for this bandwagon. Does that make you feel better?

Also, the question that Thesp asked was irrelevant to my point. My point was that Gorrad attacked Iammars for claiming with pirate flavor. Then, when Iammars got back and said "LOL, I WAS JUST BEING SILLY" Gorrad hops off as quick as a teenager when the girls father walks in, saying "We'll I'M reassured." However, this is problematic because it's literally the only response that Iammars could make to the suspicion besides "Oops, I guess you caught me," If either of these players comes up scum, I will be looking at the other one rather hard because of that.

Even if Iammars is not scum, Gorrads action is dubious at best, because he's still jumping off of a wagon with little or no provocation, which means that he probably shouldn't have been on it in the first place...

Actually, I've talked myself into it.

Unvote, vote: Gorrad.

[Thestatusquo]

I too noted that, though I am not sure what my read on Thesp is. (leaning on agreeing with guardian, though.)

[Thestatusquo]

I could see thesp thok, but not nearly as strongly as you are positing it. In addition, I think it's way too early to be looking for scumpairs. Lets just find one scum first, K? Then we can focus on their partners.

[Thestatusquo]

believe me, I am very upset at not being able to lynch DBG day one. Really pissed off, actually.

[Thestatusquo]

Because I hate her and all she stands for. All she does is be useless for 70% of the game, and then for the last 30% she becomes, amazingly, more useless. She posts stupid vote analysis' which I have yet to ever see catch scum. They're just basically retarded. Basically, she's the definition of idiocy and dislogic, and I hate playing with her. I would love to see her hang, regardless of alignment, in pretty much any game.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh, and to the end of your question. maybe I dont feel the need to "justify" everything I feel. Perhaps it's not justified to feel that way. Perhaps I just hate her so much that I don't care.

[Thestatusquo]

No, as happy as I am that she's not in the game anymore, I would take pleasure in lynching her. If you think it's "Scummy" or whatever, I have history of doing personal things in games before as town. Check out Bad idea II for an example.

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Cicero, I am axctually one of the least serious players on this site. I consider the game to be something for fun. Being uber serious about it only makes it not fun anymore. This is why PJ doesn't play anymore that much, I think.

[Thestatusquo]

Also,

Fos: Guardian

You have enough experience with Flameaxe to know that this kind of behavior is par for the course for him. I don't like your attempt to ignore his meta.

[Thestatusquo]

Heh, First of all, bringing in ongoing games is meh. Second, ZA is a different case from DGB. ZA I hate OOG, thus I don't feel comfortable punishing him in game. DGB I hate in game, and am somewhat ambivalent about OOG. Therefore I feel fine taking active measures to get her out of a game I'm in. I will probably have to make the same push in the other game you're mentioning.

[Thestatusquo]

You've certainly played in scumchat with BBM, who happens to be flameaxe. He plays a little bit more seriously on the boards, but I want to stress "A little"

[Thestatusquo]

So you will continue to invent scenarios in your mind where I am scum no matter what I say? The question at that point becomes "Why am I still talking to you?" then.

[Thestatusquo]

I am saying that being generally a terrible player who doesn't care at all how he looks is par for the course for BBM. (no offense, man.)

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Stoofer, I feel like I said what I had to say in order to defend myself. I don't think I could have put in a nicer manner, but what I said was certainly demanded by the game. If it happens again, I will always defend myself to the best of my ability. If you have a problem with that, you'd best replace me now.

[Thestatusquo]

Guardian, I believe you to be downplaying exactly how much you've played with flameaxe, but I do not have the time nor the energy to look through all your games to prove that.

[Thestatusquo]

Well, you're absolutely right, skruffly, it's only logical that the conversation would turn to me because I was here to discuss it. I don't think there was any sort of bias present, just in that I post frequently. MBF has posted much less frequently, I think, and has only deigned to address the issue (in a somewhat joking way) once. Whereas I've had a protracted conversation with cicero about what I said. Therefore, I think it could be expected that I'd be under more direct scrutiny at this moment in time,

[Thestatusquo]

I also still don't remotely understand the objection to what I had to say about mass-claim.

Regardless of the time of day or the circumstances surrounding it, massclaims are pro-town. Period.

The central point

Is the apex

which

good question

you seem to be

town

trying to derail

You shouldn't do that

is me

cicero

noting

small word

opportunistic

big word

bandwagoning without reason

Day 1

Followed by avoidance

What do you have to hide?

of

rhymes with dove

answering questions

questions end with question marks

Probably actually the best post ever.

Also, I would argue that the point day one, as a pro town player is to get wagons and guage reactions. The way you do this is get pressure on other players and then see how they, and others, react to that pressure. I don't see anything I've done today that cant be explained under that framework of day 1 pro town behavior.

Also, sorry for my absence this weekend. I was at a debate tournament.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, I would argue that the point day one, as a pro town player is to get wagons and guage reactions. The way you do this is get pressure on other players and then see how they, and others, react to that pressure. I don't see anything I've done today that cant be explained under that framework of day 1 pro town behavior.

Again, this misses the point. I agree with this completely but if it's to have any meaning, you are looking for disingenuous play. Just jumping on any wagon that seems to have momentum is exactly the kind of tell one
looks for in those wagons.

Not necessarily, I would say. First of all, there is a difference (especially early d1) in being on a wagon, and seeking a lynch. I would argue that the former is a tell, whereas the latter is meaningless d1. I don't think I've been actively seeking the lynch of either of these players, although I reserve the right to seek their lynch at a later time if they do other scummy things which warrant it.

[Thestatusquo]

Well, cicero, that's the point, with the little bit of stuff to go on that we have, anything with substance is what I'm looking for (generally) to get us out of the random stage. I think that to say the case on iammars is completely non existent is a bit of a stretch. I think that the case was certainly as good as we had to go on at the random voting stage. Just because it relies on a lot of speculation, does not mean that it couldn't necessarily be indicative of scum alignment. Which to me more than met the thresh hold for a d1 pressure wagon.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, to guardian. You asked what again? Please point it out. If it's something to do with the flameaxe connection, I'd say that if neither of you think you've played a bunch of games together, than I was mistaken.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes. Consider the FOS completely retracted.

[Thestatusquo]

How did you edit a post?

[Thestatusquo]

Twomz, I am getting more and more suspicious of you. Every time you've posted in this thread its about how the game is giving you a headache and you don't feel like you're actually producing anything. This is true, you're not producing anything. I feel like it's almost become a smoke shield that you're using to avoid posting content. And for someone who has not added particularly anything to the day thusfar, I expect better than a one sentence blip about an argument that has already been made as an excuse to vote the player with the most number of votes.

[Thestatusquo]

This game just got a lot cooler

[Thestatusquo]

Also, who would ever kill UA n1? Thats horrendous scum play. It's not like he's a threat, or anything.

[Thestatusquo]

Fritzler made the exact same play I would have. Take that with a grain of salt, though, because, well, you know.

[Thestatusquo]

Unvote

Ugghgerhrrhghjgewhjgrkwqjgkehr!!!!
GORRAD!

/SMACK

Why the hell would you claim your partners name?

WHY!?


UGHHHHH


Sjbefkehwsfhilwjetgfhre

Now can we run up TSQ? Thesp's reaction to the MBL ressurection looks like a frustrated townie and I don't have any interested in voting him. I also hate TSQ's "I find Twomz scummy for voting the person I'm currently voting" comment.

Furthermore, thok, that wasn't at all why I said he was suspicious to me. I said that he was lurking in plain sight. Many of his posts have a "Jeez I'm sorry for not posting content, this game is too fast...Don't look over here for content, thanks." Theme to them. For him to then come in and vote the person with the most votes without any original logic at all to me screams of opportunism. What does it say to you? What does the fact that he voted the person that I was voting have to do with anything? Are we not allowed to be wrong about the person we were voting, especially on day one? You're really stretching to find me suspicious.

In fact, I think twomz could use a little pressure.

vote: Twomz

[Thestatusquo]

Furthermore, thok, that wasn't at all why I said he was suspicious to me. I said that he was lurking in plain sight. Many of his posts have a "Jeez I'm sorry for not posting content, this game is too fast...Don't look over here for content, thanks." Theme to them. For him to then come in and vote the person with the most votes without any original logic at all to me screams of opportunism. What does it say to you? What does the fact that he voted the person that I was voting have to do with anything? Are we not allowed to be wrong about the person we were voting, especially on day one? You're really stretching to find me suspicious.

Have you played with Twomz at all before?

I feel like if you were actually serious about your Twomz comment, you might have FOSed or voted him, or at least expressed some discomfort with your Gorrad vote. Instead you threw some trash at Twomz and patiently kept your vote on Gorrad.

Moreover, there are others doing the "not posting content thing" as well; see K-scope for example.

First of all, answer my questions. They were not rhetorical.

Second, no, I have not. Nor have I ever read any games of his. If you want to point me to a couple that will illustrate whatever kind of point you're going for, I'd be happy to read them.

Third, wait...In order to be suspicious of someone...I can't be potentially happy with a vote I already have? Meaning I cant be suspicious of two people at once? That makes no sense, thok. That would mean several things which are just patently untrue in a game of mafia are true. Let me list them: Distancing doesn't exist, Wifom doesn't exist, there is no such thing as multiple scum groups, we are absolutely certain about the people we find suspicious, and therefore when one of them votes for another person we find suspicious, it means that they cant be scum together. As you can see, you're being more than a little ridiculous.

Lastly, I would say that I was happy with my vote, so there was no reason to move it. I was just tangentially suspicious of twomz as well. My use of FoSes is very sporadic, and unplanned. Sometimes I remember to use them, sometimes I don't. This is representative of the fact that I don't think FoSes are a big deal. When I see somethign suspicious, I post that it is so. I see a FoS as basically the same thing as saying "I find X suspicious" so I don't know why lacking the actual textual FoS is a big deal. The post is furthering the same point.

Also, let me note, the spelling correction of "twomz" is "twosome."

Lawl.

[Thestatusquo]

I do like votes on kscope myself, as well. I would caution however that SirT always seems to play this way on day one. Kscope as well, even, so never mind I don't know how I actually feel about that.

Twomz, the only person I have ever actually seen that meta work on was creampuffeater.

[Thestatusquo]

If you'd read my post at ALL and not just pretend it says what you think it did (this is now the third time I've corrected you) you'd know that I NEVER FUCKING SAID THAT. My attack, and subsequent vote on Twomz was for lurking in PLAIN SIGHT, and using continual appeals to emotion as a smoke screen for that fact, in addition, as an ADDENDUM I said I didn't like how his "Big contribution" to the game thus far was to vote the player with the most votes, with 2 sentances of unoriginal reasoning. Thats not even close to what you keep misscharacterizing it as.

[Thestatusquo]

Hello Pot. Meet Kettle.

fos:Cow

[Thestatusquo]

An excellent point. FoS retracted. Note to self...Never post at 2 am.

[Thestatusquo]

Unvote, vote Kscope

. This is a good wagon.

[Thestatusquo]

Claus, I find it a pretty big scum tell when a player tells another to do something to advance the game state when they in that post do nothing to advance it themselves.

[Thestatusquo]

Eh? Really?

- Asking for other players to advance the game:
Call me stupid, but I don't see where I did this. You mean the Kscope questions?

- Not advancing the game:

1- I think that asking simple, direct questions is a way to advance the game.
2- I also do think the Iammars wagon deserves more notoriety. Until I decide if I want to vote Kscope or not, this vote is a good cause.

===
So, I'm putting my ass on the line by booing Thesp wagon and cheering Iammars wagon. I don't think my last post is as bad as you put it.

Claus, I wasn't attacking you i was giving my input on why I was voting Kscope.

[Thestatusquo]

Guardian, if your skin is that thin, then GTFO, and good riddance.

[Thestatusquo]

Unvote

I don't want to lynch Kscope for lurking when he does it every game, which I guess means I'm waffling. Generally he, and sirT, at least in my opinion, tend to be more active day 2 onward, so I guess they're better left to tomorrow anyway. I just don't know. Thok will probably hammer this for being "non committal" but meh. I'd rather be hammered then voting for something I wasn;t sure I wanted to lynch at deadline.

Twomz has not been in the thread since I stopped voting him, has he?

FoS: Twomz

It looks very poor to just pop in to defend yourself and then leave without adding anything.

[Thestatusquo]

^ Really? Because being hammered is one of the worst things that can happen to me, as it reduces the number of players on my side and worsens my chances of winning. Compared to that, voting for somebody I'm not sure about doesn't seem so bad.

And what do you mean by "Thok will probably hammer me"? You don't even have any votes on you at the moment.

FOS: TSQ

Well. for one thing I'Dd say this isn't true. I'd much rather die as a townie than several actions I can think of (one being out a power role) For another I'd point out that Kscope was getting up there in votes, so a vote for him at deadline might be a lynch of him at deadline, and considering the fact that I am not at all convinced he is scum, thats potentially a lynching vote on potentially a townie. Which is pretty bad.

But in addition, I the second part of your statement reveals how stupid your attempted interpretation of my post was...I don't have any votes on me, so why the hell would I be worried about a hammer in the sense of a lynching vote. I obviously meant hammer in exactly the sense that thok just posted.

[Thestatusquo]

Twomz, rate your own "Signal to noise" ration since I stopped voting you, and tell me what you come up with.

[Thestatusquo]

Got to go with my gut

Vote: Twomz

[Thestatusquo]

Skruffs, my point wasn't akin to "We might lynch a townie Oh noes" It was that Kscope hasnt done enough that would justify me voting for him when he's usually like this day one, and is valuable further on down the line. If he's still like this later in the game we can cross that bridge there. Twomz, on the other hand, keeps pinging my scumdar, and my gut is that he's scum. I'm going to go with my gut over my annoyance every time.

[Thestatusquo]

UA, why rosso?

[Thestatusquo]

I can't believe Stoofer would run a game without safe claims. In addition, the fact that we already have a dead information role which implies others similar to it makes me not very inclined to believe guardian.

Vote: Guardian

[Thestatusquo]

Claus, do you really think we have a tracker in addition to the info role we already have dead which implies another like it? I don't think there are three information roles in this game. Combine that with guardians (and really scum in general's) preoccupation with claiming info roles, I think we've caught scum here.

[Thestatusquo]

Claus...Wtf how is that rolefishing? My logic relies on a role that is dead and a role that guardian just claimed?

fos: Claus

for being completely irrational

[Thestatusquo]

Thok, I hsvr breen wishy washy about one thing and one thing only in this game, the lurkers. Everything else I have taken a pretty hard stand on. Are you even reading my posts? I make one wishy washy stand and then all of a sudden thats been my play all game when you've never attacked me for it before?

[Thestatusquo]

TSQ-here's what I've seen that I would consider "wishy-washy"

Post 245, when there's a big Thesp/Guardian argument going on, with people generally being more suspicious of Thesp than Guardian.

I too noted that, though I am not sure what my read on Thesp is. (leaning on agreeing with guardian, though.)

A couple posts lately, when Guardian tosses out Thesp-Thok scum possibility

I could see thesp thok, but not nearly as strongly as you are positing it. In addition, I think it's way too early to be looking for scumpairs. Lets just find one scum first, K? Then we can focus on their partners.

Post 543 when the KScope wagon starts rolling.

I do like votes on kscope myself, as well. I would caution however that SirT always seems to play this way on day one. Kscope as well, even, so never mind I don't know how I actually feel about that.

Twomz, the only person I have ever actually seen that meta work on was creampuffeater.

There's actually less of this in your posts than I expected, but it's still there to some extent. Actually going over this makes me feel a bit better about you.

How is the second quote at all "wishy washy?" I grant the possibility of a thok-thesp scumpair, and say that I don't think it's hugely likely... and then I go on to take the definitive stance that we shouldn't be looking for scumpairs day one.

[Thestatusquo]

Iunno, it could be because we already have a dead investigative role which implies another one coupled with the fact that the flavor is poor coupled with the fact that guardian always claims information roles as scum. Could be that.

[Thestatusquo]

coming from you I find that surprising, because I remember reading you in another game say that you have never seen the speed of a wagon as indication that it was on a town or scum player, but rather that you had seen that argument used by scum players trying to defuse a wagon.

I see you have other reasoning too, but that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

[Thestatusquo]

Remind me which this game was? I believe I have pointed out that scum often use speed as an argument to derail a wagon on a buddy when they can't refute the arguments, yes.

Four votes in under three hours, including three consecutive posts switching to Rosso, from zero before, including at least two by seriously dodgy people, and with little reasoning beyond 'He's lurking' though, rings my scumdar. I see a very strong likelihood of following here, and I'm getting lynch of convenience vibes too.

It also strikes me as somewhat disengenuous how Cicero attacks a player he's voting for the very reason of lurking, for providing 'radio silence since the wagon sprung up' less than 48 hours after it appeared.

I forget what game it was, probably heroes smalltown? Have we ever played together before?

[Thestatusquo]

My vote aint goin nowhere.