PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Erg0]

/confirm

I have nothing further to add at this time.

[Erg0]

Vote: UltimaAvalon

His avatar is a pirate. Do I have to paint you a picture?

[Erg0]

I think Thesp was hoping to trick those who lack basic literacy skills.

[Erg0]

2- Discussion about the setup is bad. We had two deaths (a gangplank death and a knife death), and a half-cop revealed. Now we should be concentrating on suspicious behavior, and getting someone lynched.

Interesting that you ignored the apparent double kill here...

[Erg0]

I wasn't pointing out a contradiction, more an omission.

[Erg0]

Fair enough. I seriously doubt that it will have a significant effect on our day 1 play either way (at least it shouldn't).

[Erg0]

I kind of see Jordan's point here, though he may not have expressed it in the best way. Seeing Mars' "Yar" as scummy requires a lot of assumptions to be made about the setup, none of which we can be particularly confident of being correct. If we lynch him, it would essentially be in order to test those assumptions rather than because he is scummy in his own right.

I'm not sure, however, that this is really all that there is to the case.

[Erg0]

Apologies, I retract the last sentence of that post. I should re-read rather than relying on memory.

Gorrad, it's not the discussing of the setup that is scummy, it is the manner in which you and Mr. Iammars are doing so.

Unvote, Vote: Mgm

Where did Iammars speculate on setup? His only posts are his confirm and a random vote.

[Erg0]

I kind of see Jordan's point here, though he may not have expressed it in the best way. Seeing Mars' "Yar" as scummy requires a lot of assumptions to be made about the setup, none of which we can be particularly confident of being correct.

This is a decent point, which was not at all what JordanA24 is saying. Note that it doesn't require a bazillion assumptions about the setup, just that there is a group of scum who are ninjas, and who are not comprised of pirates (and are otherwise unaware of what other roles might be out there before N1), which currently seem very, very reasonable to make.

By the way, Iammars, are you a pirate?

I believe there are a couple more assumptions implicit in this case, but I'll leave that discussion until we actually hear something from Mars.

[Erg0]

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

[Erg0]

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Did you read space monkeys at all?

Yes, and it illustrates my point. The Space Monkeys knew they were the mafia from the start, thus they would not immediately claim Space Monkey and out themselves. The gorillas

thought

they were scum and thus also would not reveal their real roles at the start of the game. The setup was certainly deceptive, but it was done in such a way as to prevent players (especially scum) from immediately shooting themselves in the foot.

[Erg0]

Yeah, I don't think that's voteworthy. Do you see my original point now, though?

[Erg0]

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Alluding to a role-type on your first post can out you in any flavored game, especially one with a mod known for intricate and deceptive setups.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with "faith in Stoofer as a mod". Could you enlighten me?

I simply meant that I don't think that Stoofer would deliberately set someone up to believe it was safe to say something flavour-based that it was not, in fact, safe to say. The Mars thing seems to be largely based on the idea that his role PM somehow led him to think that it would be a good idea to pretend to be a pirate, when this has clearly turned out not to be the case. I think it's far more likely that he was just being whimsical, not attempting some gambit that backfired on him.

[Erg0]

I agree that he hasn't been abused by the mod - that was my point in the first place. Once you eliminate that possibility, the alternative theory would be that he made what seems to me like an unreasonably large leap of logic and tried to clear himself with a wild guess at flavour during the confirmation stage. I don't subscribe to this theory.

[Erg0]

I agree that he hasn't been abused by the mod - that was my point in the first place. Once you eliminate that possibility, the alternative theory would be that he made what seems to me like an unreasonably large leap of logic and tried to clear himself with a wild guess at flavour during the confirmation stage. I don't subscribe to this theory.

Consider this hypothetical thought process:

I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas.
-->In this game, pirates oppose ninjas.
I am ninja scum
There is a town, and I as scum oppose them.
-->Pirates are town.

You consider that to be an unreasonably large leap of logic?

In the context of this game, yes it is. It's common knowledge that Stoofer's games always have a twist, Mars would have to be a raging moron to make such a baseless assumption.

[Erg0]

I agree that he hasn't been abused by the mod - that was my point in the first place. Once you eliminate that possibility, the alternative theory would be that he made what seems to me like an unreasonably large leap of logic and tried to clear himself with a wild guess at flavour during the confirmation stage. I don't subscribe to this theory.

Consider this hypothetical thought process:

I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas.
-->In this game, pirates oppose ninjas.
I am ninja scum
There is a town, and I as scum oppose them.
-->Pirates are town.

You consider that to be an unreasonably large leap of logic?

In the context of this game, yes it is. It's common knowledge that Stoofer's games always have a twist, Mars would have to be a raging moron to make such a baseless assumption.

I don't see how "Stoofer's games have a twist" invalidates the hypothetical thought process. At all.

I'd like to hear a response to this.

Is this really so difficult to understand? Stoofer's reputation as a mod who likes to do things that are a bit "different" is likely to make players more cautious about drawing quick assumptions regarding flavour early in the game. If we discard the theory that Mars was misled by his PM (which I believe that we already have) then the alternative theory is, as Guardian said, that he got his Ninja PM and immediately concluded that pirates must be the town, hence he tried to pass himself off as a pirate. Given Stoofer's style, it would be obvious to almost anyone (certainly to an experienced player like Mars) that this would not be a safe assumption to make before the first night scene has even been posted. Basically, your theory relies on Mars making an assumption that he would have to be an idiot to make.

Let me put it this way: if you'd received a PM saying "you are a ninja", would

you

immediately assume that the pirates were the good guys? Even if you made that assumption, would you stake your life in the game on it by playing the role in your confirmation post? I doubt you could truthfully answer yes to both of those questions, so your case rests on the assumption that Mars is much,

much

dumber than you.

I seriously don't know why this is so difficult to grasp. I think you're both far too in love with your theory to wrap your head around the basic problem with your assumptions.

[Erg0]

Don't make me hurt you.

[Erg0]

I'd argue that my theory is based on far fewer and simpler assumptions than yours.

[Erg0]

I'll try a hypothetical: if you were in the position that you believe Mars to be in, would you have done the same thing that you believe he did? Why or why not?

This is for both Thesp and Guardian.

[Erg0]

Is that because you don't know his situation, or because you don't know how you'd behave in his place?

[Erg0]

It is, but I wasn't sure whether you were disputing the assumption.

Now I'm wondering how, if you don't know how you'd behave in the situation you posit, you can reasonably draw a conclusion on Mars' situation based on his behaviour. Do you feel that you know him so well that you're able to draw such a conclusion based on a single word?

[Erg0]

I should actually

Unvote

since Mgm has clarified.

Based on the Iammars mess, I'm tossing up between Thesp, Guardian and Gorrad right now. I'm going to reread all three and see what I come up with.

[Erg0]

Finally had time for that reread, but it's actually something that happened

after

my last post that grabbed me.

Vote: Guardian

Apparently what was actually needed to convince him was a bunch of other people agreeing with me.

Very

sudden turn on the Iammars issue.

[Erg0]

So just me on Guardian then?

I have about 4 pages to read tomorrow, will be back into the game soon.

[Erg0]

Finally had time for that reread, but it's actually something that happened

after

my last post that grabbed me.

Vote: Guardian

Apparently what was actually needed to convince him was a bunch of other people agreeing with me.

Very

sudden turn on the Iammars issue.

Apparently what was actually needed to convince me was you elaborating and repeating your argument in emphatic terms.

Very

suspicious play by Thesp, too....

Who are these "bunch of other people agreeing with you" before I decided to unvote Iammars and vote Thesp -- people who started agreeing with you between the time I last responded to you, and when I changed my mind?

Honestly, I didn't think that anything that I said after your echo of Thesp's request for elaboration was particularly fresh or insightful. Mostly I was just beating Thesp (and, by extension, you) over the head with exactly the same argument that I'd already made. I was very surprised by your sudden change of heart - I was arguing more for the benefit of the room than the individuals I was addressing by that point.

There was a general groundswell of support for my point of view (if not my specific argument) around that time. Examples are Twomz in 186, Claus in 188, Mgm in 207, Samruc in 208, and Skruffs in 212. My theory is that you saw which way the wind was blowing and decided to beat the rush off the wagon. To me, this indicates that you never believed paricularly strongly in the wagon in the first place.

[Erg0]

Gorrad/hasdfgas are, to my mind, not lynch targets but also not fully confirmed. As Twomz said, one of them will die eventually and then we'll know for sure whether thay're really masons. Confirmed townie status isn't really worth

that

much in terms of swaying my opinions on other players anyway.

I really have difficulty understanding why Guardian is kind of skating by for doing much the same thing as Thesp, but then abandoning his position when it became clear that it was becoming unpopular. At least Thesp stuck to his guns in the face of the wagon against him, which is either a sign that he was acting in good faith or a pretty big gamble if he's scum.

[Erg0]

cicero, how do you feel about the point against Guardian that I raised above?

[Erg0]

Well, at least in the beginning of the game, may I point out something?

The scum can't crosskill, the first time they try. I'm presuming that MBL's target last night SHOULD have died, since he is a vig, and thus isn't subject to the cross killing rules.

However, knowing that, I just dfon't like Erg0's statement up above, that potential scum doesn't need to be lynched because they are 'likely to die' anyways. It just... strikes me as funny.

I'm nto saying that I disbelieve the mason claim, it's just a little twinge. I react to twinges.

I actually hadn't considered the nightkill thing - I'm erring on the side of assuming that the mason claim is true, so that was mainly what I was thinking about. Even taking the crosskill immunity into account, the group with the failed kill will know instantly that the masons are scum if they target them, and they'd surely be interested in getting rid of the opposing scum as soon as possible. One hand washes the other, so to speak.

[Erg0]

cicero, can you please answer 590? I have a feeling you missed it.

[Erg0]

From your description I'd say I had a similar experience in Candy Mafia, but I think I drew something different from it than you did. The scum don't have to hunt each other to ensure that

one

of the scum groups wins, but if they want

their

scum group to win then they need to get rid of at least some of the other scum or they're just relying on blind luck. Optimal scum play in a multiple-group game is to try and gain a numerical advantage over the other scum groups(s). Whether scum actually do this in practice I don't know - I've never been in that situation as scum. It's certainly what

I'd

do, though.

[Erg0]

Hooray, we've entered the "I dunno, let's just lynch Kscope" phase of the day!

No, I'm the one arguing it's not a scumtell at all. You said it was a "questionable scumtell". That implies it is a scumtell to begin with. What you say you're arguing doesn't match what you actually said.

THAT is word a FOS.

This seems like a really weak semantic argument to me.

[Erg0]

I find cicero's point about scum strategy interesting, and possibly accurate/applicable but:

1. It would mean Thesp is town, something I'm not sure I'm comfortable with
2. It boils down to WIFOM easily
3. Why are you thinking about scum strategy, cicero?

Where were you when Skruffs and I were discussing this a few pages ago?

Also, I can't see how thinking about scum strategy could be considered a scumtell. How are you supposed to find them without considering how they're likely to act?

[Erg0]

cicero, I can sympathise as I've been in a similar position in the past - but there's no need to lynch the lurker

immediately

. The first few kills tend to thin them out a bit, and we get much more information from wagonning more active players than pursuing easy lurker lynches.

[Erg0]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: a strong Kscope wagon is almost always a sign that the town has given up and is taking the easy lynch. It doesn't even let us find scum on the wagon because almost everyone has given little to no reasoning beyond "he's lurking".

[Erg0]

Perhaps I should say "easy wagon", rather than "easy lynch".

[Erg0]

I think that if you really want to lynch Guardian you should vote for him. We've still got five days to reorganise our votes if we need to reduce the required majority, and another vote on Guardian could make a major difference to the voting landscape.

[Erg0]

I'm fine with you having fun, just I'm not fine with talking about game relevant information and then saying you are joking. I tend to have lots of fun while playing mafia (except when people vote for me for bullshit/no reason).

You've failed to establish that Mars' confirmation "Yar" is game-relevant. That's going to be a pretty tough one to sell.

[Erg0]

It's a confirmation post - the game proper hasn't even started yet. That's like arguing that what someone said in the signup thread is game-relevant (I am aware that this has already happened).

[Erg0]

What I'm trying to get at is that we were still essentially in the "pre-game" stage and, as such, people would not generally be expected to post game-relevant content. As such, painting something that is said during confirmations as game-relevant requires a much higher standard of proof than if the same thing had been said during the game itself.

It's not at all unusual for players to confirm in a lighthearted or joking way - you can see that Claus and UA also added little bits of flavour to their confirmations. Comparing this to scumtells disguised as jokes during the actual game (e.g. EmpTyger's attempted joke) is not valid.

[Erg0]

If an Iammars wagon appears out of thin air, I'll join it gladly. Otherwise, a scope lynch is better than a me-lynch.

I'm of the mindset that if Scope has something to claim, he should claim it soon. If we're not lynching him, we need to find someone other than he or I in the span of 5 days.

In other words, you want to survive and would lynch badly to make it happen. There are other choices than you and Kscope, but you make no effort to look at other suspects. That first para is just a false dilemma.

We have 5 days. I want to look at mars. Then Erg0 posts some bullshit about trying to manufacture a last minute wagon on me.

Saying I am not intersted in non-Kscope targets is categorically untrue.

Last minute? I've been on you for most of the day, it's just taken this long for the prospect of an actual wagon to appear. I can't help it if people are slow.

In fact, all that I actually did in practice is ask Mars why he was consciously choosing not to vote you at a critical moment. If you come up scum I'll be looking very hard in his direction next.

[Erg0]

Erg0, two points:

First, you've indicated coorelation, and sure you can assume causation, but that isn't the case -- repeating your arguments emphatically made me reconsider staying on the wagon.

Second, how strongly do you think I believed in the wagon in the first place? When people asked me about this, I said "I think my vote is in a good place for now." I Never said OMG Mars=Scumz lynch lynch/dayvig! If you read my posts carefully I was never that fervent about lynching Iammars, but his was among the first substantial wagons, and I thought the evidence I uncovered was the best we had to go on at the time.

From my perspective, your voting me for this is in essence persecuting me for being proactive and trying to get out of the random/noise stage.

This does not sound to me like someone who sincerely believed in the Mars wagon to begin with.

[Erg0]

I disagree that Guardian has held his points - if you look at the post that I quoted on the previous page, he defended his original switch to Thesp by saying that he wasn't all that sold on the Mars wagon. Contrast that to his recent assertion that the "Yarr" tell is sound, and you should be able to see the shift in his position.

[Erg0]

Unvote, Vote: Thesp

I'm never a fan of lynching claimed power roles on day 1, regardless of how weak the flavour may be. If we were going after the last scum I'd lynch Guardian, but at this stage of the game there's a good chance that he'll trip himself up before long if he's lying.

Thesp has gone from pushing a bad wagon to pushing multiple iffy wagons. He's a good plan B in my eyes.

[Erg0]

I think Thok is scum

vote Thok

Mind elaborating at all?

I don't like the way he's trying to get Guardian lynched despite the claim I think his roleclaim fits and guardian looks town and now he's accused me too.

Your OMGUS has been noted.

[Erg0]

Unvote, Vote: Rosso Carne

This lynch is better than no lynch.

[Erg0]

LOL. I was iffy on this scenario until post 1056.

Vote: Guardian

I categorically deny targeting hasdfgas in any way last night.

[Erg0]

I love how you're trying to wrangle your way out of this with dodgy flavour speculation. You've been caught in a lie and you're going to die for it. You transparent attempt to frame the person who saw through you on day 1 isn't going to save your credibility.

Let me ask you this: of all the people that were attacking you yesterday, you said repeatedly that you thought I was the most genuine. Why, then, did you choose to track me over one of the many people that you found scummy?

[Erg0]

So Guardian is a goblin ninja now?

Your logic is broken. Even if you don't take into account Guardian's extreme scumminess on day 1, there is no basis for your assumption that he is trying to get me killed because he knows I'm scum. Obviously I know the truth, but even from others' perspective it's at least as likely that he's trying to take down a useful townie before he's lynched or vigged for lying about his role. It's not like it's going to damage his reputation when I come up town, he's going to die soon no matter what he does from here.

Promoting the lynch of a townish player to verify a scummy player's already highly dubious claim is either very dumb or very suspicious.

[Erg0]

Why should we be coming up with defences for you? The most likely (and correct) explanation is that you're scum. The onus is not on the rest of us to come up with reasons why you might not be.

[Erg0]

Let me get this straight- you think that a scum Guardian is significantly more likely because Erg0 denied targetting Cow last night? What did you expect Erg0 to do?

If I'd targeted hasdfgas for something other than a kill last night, that would have at least confirmed the tracker part of Guardian's claim. As such, I would have claimed that if it were true.

[Erg0]

Didn't need a crystal ball to see that one coming.

[Erg0]

I'm not exactly trembling in fear here, considering the source. I can't believe you're really so bitter about me finding you out on day 1.

[Erg0]

Found you out Night 0? You mean the night where all three apparent scumgroups got their kills through? Try again.

[Erg0]

I'm referring to day 1, where I had my vote on him pretty much all day (up until his fakeclaim), thanks to scumhunting rather than role-based information.

[Erg0]

Any reason why you're blindly following what the scum tells you to do? It's just been proven that he was lying about Thok, apparently in order to get rid of a town role that would be harmful to his cause. What on earth would make you think that he's telling the truth about me?

Also: MBL, am I right in thinking that you vigged Thok? The flavour is a little inconclusive, but "arm cleanly sliced off" seems to me as though it would be attributed to a lightsaber.

I strongly suspect that the goblins have a rolecop on their team.

[Erg0]

This is a lot to process, but it looks like the scum are starting to lose their immunities to each other (yay).

I think mbl was in error to think that the goblin(s), or any scum, would target erg0; erg0 is the 'obvious' lynch choice today.

Big finger of suspicion on gorrad there:

guardian had no reason to lie about erg0

, and it seems the 'thok hate' was 'justified', thok must have indicated he knew goblins were scum in some way.

I find this, particularly the bolded part, very presumptuous. Guardian had plenty of reason to lie about Thok. Why would you automatically assume that my situation is different? Have you even really thought about it?

Frankly, the lot of you are seriously lacking in imagination. I find it very disappointing that you're not even trying to think outside the box here.

[Erg0]

Personally, I'm vacillating on Guardian/Erg0. It makes sense for guardian to finger a non-buddy as scum whether or not it's actually true. But the whole 'Moses coming down from the mountain' schtick Guardian seemed to be pulling at the beginning of yesterday makes me think he was planning to announce an incriminating result, which makes me think Erg0scum is more likely.

I'll note that the "incriminating result" was based on something that Guardian had absolutely no way of knowing. Even if he'd found out I was scum, there would only have been a 50% chance that his claimed result would be correct.

[Erg0]

1. There would only be a 50% chance of him guessing the right scumgroup (pirates) if he had information based on goblin kills.

2. You're assuming that he has the information to give out in the first place.

[Erg0]

I disagree. I do think that Guardian was trying to get me killed because it was to his group's advantage, but not for the reason you so blithely assume.

[Erg0]

Stoofer likes LotR? I dunno, Sonny Chiba got bumped to the bottom too.

I'm also noticing that, judging by the kills so far, it appears that every single player in this game is either scum or a power role.

[Erg0]

Hence the reason that I included the phrase "judging by the kills so far" in my original statement.

[Erg0]

1. You appear to know too much. A scum crosskill is one possible explanation for the lack of goblin kill, but it's certainly not the

only

explanation. Doctor protection or a roleblocker are equally plausible explanations, and in those scenarios Guardian would not know the reason that the goblins' target didn't die. For that matter, you're assuming that the goblins tried to kill me in the first place, which is not a given by any means.

2. I'm talking about Guardian's choice to try and pin hasdgfas' death on me. By claiming that he'd tracked me to hasdgfas, he was pegging his claim on me being a pirate (since hasdgfas died with pirate flavour), and at best he would have a 50% chance of being right about that. I don't think he thought his claim would work, he was just rolling the dice and hoping to get a townie bumped off before he was lynched.

[Erg0]

But lets think this out from Guardian's perspective - He is going to be lynched. And we know Goblins didn't kill Night 2. So when he self hammers and gives out info , why would he lie about who he targeted Night 2?

Quote tag fixed -- Stoofer

You're reading, but you're not comprehending. Once again, you are assuming that he had information to give. If the goblin kill was blocked by a doc then he knew

nothing

, thus your line of reasoning is invalid.

After all , taking out another scum is far more valuable to him than taking out a townie ..

Taking out scum may be more valuable than taking out a townie, but if you can't take out a scum then a townie will have to do. Also, I'd be cautious of making value judgements such as this (and your suggestion that we'd be better off if I was nightkilled) without having all of the facts in your possession. Guardian wanted me dead because it would be good for his team, and you seem to want me dead because it saves you the trouble of working things out for yourself.

[Erg0]

I fail to see the problem with that statement. Do you consider a doctor blocking a scum kill to be implausible? Just because we have a special rule in this game, you shouldn't try to attribute every non-kill to that rule.

[Erg0]

Might as well do something useful now.

Vote: Kison

His post 849 looks very sketchy in light of Kscope's revealed role.

[Erg0]

Meh. Coincidence. I've wasted enough breath refuting bad arguments, I'm just ignoring posts like yours at this point.

Re your post: I've been re-reading since yesterday based on the scum that have been revealed, and that particular post struck me as very scummy. You say yourself that Kscope is playing the way he usually does, and you also say that a number of other players are doing the same thing, yet you still feel the need to FoS him (while he's the leading wagon). It appears to me that you've gone out of your way to comment on him so it doesn't look like you're ignoring the wagon, but you don't actually want to get him lynched. Sounds like something his buddy would do.

[Erg0]

If he always plays like that, why does it surprise you that he condones it?

I'll respond briefly to your earlier post:

I guess one other thing we don't know is whether or not a doctorish protection would nullify the notification that they targeted scum, but Guardian insisted that he was certain of Erg0 being scum. So to me, we're relying on whether or not Guardian lied. The other thing is that if Guardian did lie to us, he did not really drop any dead certainties of anyone else being scum besides Thok(if I recall correctly), which seems unreasonable since their kill obviously did not go through that night.

Rule 17 (which you quoted) states that scum will be notified if their kill fails "for that reason" (i.e. because the target was scum). It seems reasonable to assume that they would not receive such a notification in the case of doctor protection, or any other external interference with their kill.

I have no idea who the goblins tried to kill night 2, but it does seem somewhat likely that it was either me or Thok. It appears not to be a coincidence that Thok was singled out by Guardian, given that he turned out to be the goblin protector - a role that the goblins would definitely want to be rid of. As I said earlier today, I think that the goblins may have a rolecop on their team - either that or Guardian made a really lucky guess.

On the other hand, I suspect that Guardian thought I had some kind of information role based on the way I zeroed in on him on the first day. That would be a good reason for him to want me dead one way or the other. Alternatively, if the goblins tried to kill me and failed without receiving notifaction of why, it makes sense to me that he would want to get me lynched since he can't be certain that I'm killable at night.

The other possible scenario is that the goblins tried to kill someone else entirely on night 2, and Guardian was just annoyed about being run up on day 1 and decided to take it out on two of the wagoners. Frankly, it's the kind of thing that I could see him doing.

I really think that I'm just repeating myself at this point. I'm hoping that if we don't rush the day then people will gradually come to their senses and realise that they're relying on the word of scum who has already been shown to have been lying about the other person he fingered on his way out.

[Erg0]

cicero: can you please answer my question in 1198.

[Erg0]

Kison: didn't see the end of that.

My issue is not that you chose one wagon over the other, it's the fact that you FoSed Kscope at all for something that you did not adequately demonstrate to be suspicious. It feels like you just threw the FoS in for the sake of appearances.

[Erg0]

cicero: can you please answer my question in 1198.

Oh yeah, sure. I thought I you really slipped up in this post:

1. You appear to know too much.

A scum crosskill is one possible explanation for the lack of goblin kill, but it's certainly not the

only

explanation. Doctor protection or a roleblocker are equally plausible explanations, and in those scenarios Guardian would not know the reason that the goblins' target didn't die. For that matter, you're assuming that the goblins tried to kill me in the first place, which is not a given by any means.

You're accusing Ooba of having too much information about the fact that you're scum. While I personally thank you for this because maybe he does, for me at least, this hoists you on your own petard.

Um, no. I'm accusing Ooba of having too much information about what Guardian supposedly knew, and his (Guardian's) motivations for doing what he did. In context, I'm saying that if what Ooba claims is true then the only way he could be as sure as he appears is if he is also a goblin.

I should temper my thought that you you're definitely a ninja though:

Hooray, we've entered the "I dunno, let's just lynch Kscope" phase of the day!

cicero, I can sympathise as I've been in a similar position in the past - but there's no need to lynch the lurker

immediately

.

The first few kills tend to thin them out a bit,

and we get much more information from wagonning more active players than pursuing easy lurker lynches.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: a strong Kscope wagon is almost always a sign that the town has given up and is taking the easy lynch. It doesn't even let us find scum on the wagon because almost everyone has given little to no reasoning beyond "he's lurking".

I concede, ya might be a pirate.

To me it looks like I'm just right - note bolded sentence. Perhaps I'm a fortune teller.

Could this all be a big misunderstanding involving a roleblocker or a doc? sure. But I don't think so.

Nobody ever said this was a misunderstanding. This is a deliberate deception, calling it a misunderstanding is just an attempt by you to strengthen your case by being dismissive of all other possibilities.

Again.

[Erg0]

To be clear, the "deliberate deception" in the last paragraph of the above post refers to Guardian's actions, not cicero's.

[Erg0]

cicero: can you please answer my question in 1198.

Oh yeah, sure. I thought I you really slipped up in this post:

1. You appear to know too much.

A scum crosskill is one possible explanation for the lack of goblin kill, but it's certainly not the

only

explanation. Doctor protection or a roleblocker are equally plausible explanations, and in those scenarios Guardian would not know the reason that the goblins' target didn't die. For that matter, you're assuming that the goblins tried to kill me in the first place, which is not a given by any means.

You're accusing Ooba of having too much information about the fact that you're scum. While I personally thank you for this because maybe he does, for me at least, this hoists you on your own petard.

Um, no. I'm accusing Ooba of having too much information about what Guardian supposedly knew, and his (Guardian's) motivations for doing what he did. In context, I'm saying that if what Ooba claims is true then the only way he could be as sure as he appears is if he is also a goblin.

Yes.... exactly. Maybe I'm being stupid and, seriously, explain it to me because I have no interest in mislynching. Particularly you. You're a strong player and generally a pleasant one. But I saw this as a slip on your part and I'm still missing the distinction you're trying to make. It seems to me that the implication is that you are accusing Ooba of being Guardian's scumbuddy - a general OMGUS move - and the slip is that he has too much info about the situation. The situation being that Guardian's buddy(s) know that you are from a rival scum-group. I've read Ooba's post and yours a bunch of times and I think you posted without thinking and screwed up because you didn't see the implications. I'm sorry if that bugs you.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes: what I'm attempting to convey to Ooba is that the basis of his accusation is something that only Guardian's buddy could know for sure. I am not actually accusing him of being Guardian's buddy, I'm basically trying to force him to re-examine his conclusions in that light. It probably did come off a little more OMGUSy than I intended, but I don't tend to believe that Ooba is actually Guardian's partner.

[Erg0]

I see what you're saying now but even just a minute ago contradicts: What you just wrote:

I am not actually accusing him of being Guardian's buddy

but just before that:

I'm accusing Ooba of having too much information about what Guardian supposedly knew

I see what you're saying. And obviously, if you're scum you have to say what you have to say. But I'm having trouble reconciling this kind of thing. You look more like you're backpedaling now that you see the implications of the slip.

(people who want to see the quotes in context, they're right above in that last quote pyramid).

Oh boy, this is going to get semantic...

The second quote above is in response to the post in which you say that "[I'm] accusing Ooba of having too much information about the fact that [I'm] scum". In it, I am responding to the second part of your sentence by clarifying exactly what I am "accusing" Ooba of (in your terms) in my original post on the subject. In doing so, I've simply echoed the first part of your assertion and modified the second part to show specifically what I'm disagreeing with in your initial statement. The sentence immediately following this one is as follows:

In context, I'm saying that if what Ooba claims is true then the only way he could be as sure as he appears is if he is also a goblin.

I feel that this sufficiently clarifies that I am not saying that Ooba is actually scum, only that he is making a faulty assumption. As such, my position has not changed between the two posts you have quoted from above, despite the appearance that the sentences you pulled may create. There is no contradiction, nor any backpedaling, in those two posts.

Frankly, the "if you're scum you have to say what you have to say" bit that you've come up with above makes no sense. What's the difference between what scum would say and what town would say in my situation? Both will be motivated by self-preservation, and both will attempt to persuade others to this end. I think that you're trying to fit the evidence to your preconceived conclusion, and at this point you're just throwing as much crap as possible at me in the hope that something will stick.

[Erg0]

Constant pressure? Where? I've only seen one person even mention anything about me claiming. I've certainly been under pressure, but not pressure to claim.

[Erg0]

Kison, I may be reading your post incorrectly but looking at your four options it appears that you think that Thesp will die when he uses the kill, no matter who he targets. He only dies if the target is town, which invalidates scenario 3.

[Erg0]

Wait, never mind. I misread Kison's post.

[Erg0]

I seriously haven't seen it, and I've definitely been looking. All I've seen is a bunch of people voting me based on poor assumptions.

[Erg0]

Ok, time for a claim.

I am Buffy Summers (aka Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for those who don't know). My PM tells me that I'm a plain old townie, but circumstancial evidence leads me to think that I may have an additional facet to my role - I suspect that I may be at least partially NK immune. This is both flavour based (Wikipedia tells me that I died and came back to life in the TV show), and also based on a possible explanation for the lack of a goblin kill on night 2.

I had a fairly specific strategy in mind for today to test this theory and try to maximise my remaining usefulness to the town, but that's unlikely to come to fruition now.

[Erg0]

Frankly, I'm guessing. If not for the flavour I probably wouldn't have even considered the possibility of being unkillable, as my PM doesn't even hint at something like that.

Basically, my objectives today were to:

1. Imply that I might have a power role so that I would be an attractive scum target

2. Try to push a scenario such as a doctor protect on night 2 to explain to the goblins why their kill failed (since they might already think that I'm unkillable and avoid targeting me again)

3. Make it to night in the hopes of drawing another nightkill attempt and at least saving the town a mislynch

I don't mind being nightkilled if it saves someone more important. I'm basically a lame duck at this point in the game, so all I can do is try to make my death less than a complete waste.

[Erg0]

I don't know what kind of revalation you were expecting from me, but just saying "I don't believe the claim" is kind of a cop-out. Essentially you're just repeating what you've been saying all day: "I think you're scum". The way I see it, you wouldn't have believed any claim that I made.

This goes for the rest of you too. If you'd care to re-read my posts today you should find that they're consistent with what I've described above.

[Erg0]

1. There are only so many power roles in a game, and I'm guessing that whatever townies there are don't all have minor, insignificant characters for flavour. The role flavour appears to have been drawn from a number of disparate sources, so it makes some sense that main characters would be used for random townies.

2. See 1.

3. Can you clarify what you mean by "the way [I've] been acting"?

[Erg0]

3. You claim to be nightkill-imune-ish, but not aware of the fact?

Also, to clarify: I've

speculated

that, not

claimed

it. I'm no more aware of the facts in this matter than you are, I'm just applying deductive reasoning based on the evidence (i.e. flavour and the missed nightkill).

[Erg0]

I'm loathe to point this out myself because it will be WIFOMed to death, but the smart move would be to have MBL vig me tonight. If I'm NK immune then that'll prove it, and we won't have to lose Thesp if he's telling the truth.

[Erg0]

Being nightkill immune would not necessarily make me daykill immune. I don't think I've ever played in a game with a kill-immune role

and

a daykiller, but I would expect there to be a distinction between the two, as CES pointed out earlier with your theory on Thesp not being able to daykill fellow scum.

[Erg0]

I'm just going off what I've seen so far, which only suggests nightkill immunity, if any at all. I'm also concerned that it may only be a one-shot deal.

Bottom line (assuming Thesp is being truthful): if Thesp kills me and it works then we both die. If it doesn't work then I guess we just go to night with no lynch and both of us alive, which probably won't solve much in everybody else's eyes. If MBL kills me tonight then either I live or I die, but it's only me that is at risk.

I don't see any way that I'm going to survive to endgame here, even if I do turn out to be kill immune. It's pretty clear that enough people have taken Guardian's accusation to heart that I'm never going to be able to convince them that I'm not scum with the means that I have available. I'm just looking for the means of death that will be least damaging for the town.

[Erg0]

Sorry, I've been sick for a few days and my brain isn't quite working at the moment. On the subject of a cult, there's no mention of it in my role PM. I suppose a vampire cult is possible, but I'm not sure how my role would tie into that, if at all. The existence of two roles with vampire-related flavour does give me pause, though.

[Erg0]

I love how your plan involves lynching me whether Thesp is telling the truth or not, once again ignoring an opportunity to get the known vig to target me and test my theory.

[Erg0]

Given Stoofer's policy, I'll get this in now just in case.

Bah.

[Erg0]

Now I know why scum don't scumhunt. I always seem to be right when it's of least benefit to me, since I'm assuming that Guardian thought I was a cop due to my relentless pursuit of him on day 1.

In retrospect, I did kind of crappify that claim. I was just trying to live through to night and force the goblins to NK me. Damn Thesp and his dayvigs!

I really wish that I'd had CES and Primate on my team from the start, rather than getting them in right before my inevitable death. I'm kind of glad I didn't live to the end, though - I really hate scum-dominated endgames.

This was way fun for the couple of days that I managed to hang around. I'd more or less figured out that there wasn't really a twist in this game, but it was profitable to continue to push that angle to prevent a massclaim. Thanks for the awesomeness, Stoofer!