Mini 559 - Cult Mafia again - Game over

[Friend of Old]

Fake claiming is definately a can of worms, especially as that would give the scum a 'get out of jail free' card, as it were. I'd suggest claiming true and claiming late if at all possible. Circumstances will vary of course. However I do understand the merits of such play, especially if it saves townies from the cult.

One thing I'd like to know however is where

if everyone is 100% sure im mafia/cultist, it STILL makes sense in such a role filled game for us to first discuss tactics. and logic is logic, regardless of anyones role.

came from. Nobody is seriously pointing the finger at anybody, so why post that?

[Friend of Old]

What amuses me here is that OMG has in fact become overdefensive in my opinion. You have gone out of your way to prove the 'I'm 100% not mafia' post was not overdefensive, but in the process of proving your point, I think, you have gone far enough over the top to be called overdefensive.

It is one thing to post a refuting post, and then discuss what else is going on, but every point that comes up you seem to repeat the same thing, to the point of overdefensiveness. In the case of XreyoX's question, you don't need to push that fact that is wasn't overdefensive so much. Elias makes a vaild point in that it was prompting a lurker, but you constantly bang on about your innocence, like I've banged on about the same thing this post.

Also I would like to know why you felt the necessity to say that straight off the bat, nobody was accusing you. I simply can't wrap my head around why you felt you were so threatened. Yes I have read your lengthy discourse on why saying that wasn't defensive, but the timing is what I am questioning.

I'm beginning to feel that this constant noise may in fact be a deflection tactic, plus it really isn't helping with half of the thread being devoted to your protests of innocnece.

FoS: OMG

[Friend of Old]

To be perfectly honest I don't believe there to have been any major scumtells thus far, so I'm finding it difficult figuring out who to pressure.

However when I'm stuck I revert to plan A, vote for lurkers. So I'm going to put the pressure on:

FoS: militant
Vote: GSGold

[Friend of Old]

Please, stop metagaming before you start, play each game as an individual.

[OMG]I am being very patient but when you continuously skim my posts and misrepresent or misunderstand every single thing i say it becomes increasingly frustrating and wastes space and time in this game.

Unvote, Vote Reyo for continuous anti-town behavior.[/quote]

What? Did I miss something here? How exactly has XreyoX been going continuously against the town? As far as I'm concerned reyo was amking a perfectly vaild point, in fact I'd go so far as to say such a stratagy is scummy as it does not help the town in any way. If we pressure lies the lies may break, by deliberately lying as the town you are providing us with red herrings, which are a pain, if you must claim claim something that will be productive for town.

Unvote, Vote: OMG

for villainising reyo and counter-productivity

[Friend of Old]

Well the way I see it is that we have only the smallest things to jump at.

Unvote: OMG
Vote: Militant, for lack of beneficial input to the town & general lurking

[Friend of Old]

Hi. Plus it seems like I some explaining to do, which I can't really, there's no defence for using craplogic to construct an attack. However the fact remains that there is no decent logic out there, so I jumped on a wagon to see what would happen, simple as that really. I got off sharpish when I felt there was no more to be had from it, and I believe GhostWriter told me off at the time. The point is I'm taking wild stabs in the dark at the moment and going with the flow.

After the replacement,

unvote

and because of my current strategy,

vote: GSGold

.

[Friend of Old]

I can understand why some people are finding me scummy, after all I'm only jumping on wagons at the moment, simply adding votes for pressure. Mostly however I've been pushing lurkers, the only time I didn't was when I jumped on the OMG wagon, and that was because I dislike his manner of play, I find it too confrontational.
Look at his last post for example. Sometimes I feel that even if he is town his influence can be negative, in the way that he says something, someone takes it from a different angle and we subsequently have umpteen posts about how we're all blind. Forgive me for finding this a tad irritating. All the same I wasn't on that wagon for long.
For now I'm content to stay on the GS wagon as it fits with my strategy of probing lurkers, plus an extra vote means extra pressure. I'll jump off if someone adds another vote though, L-2 is probably enough.

[Friend of Old]

Reyo, there is little else I can contribute than adding my vote to a wagon at this stage. If I were to look back over the thread tus far I'm pretty sure I'd find that it is mostly you and OMG arguing over what OMG said. There has been little to no genuine scumminess thus far and overanalysis is as dangerous as none at all, so I'm not especially willing to go into too much depth at such an early stage.

Thus far what have we established overall? Little that is useful as far as I am concerned. We started with some discussion about strategy, which quickly descended into an OMG rant on the meaning of one of his posts. We then move on to some filler while we wait for the scum to say, 'I'm over here, come lynch me!' We then moved on the OMG saying he always fakeclaims, and the invetiable arguement over that. We have then had a series of fairly pointless and baseless wagons, on the most part in an attempt to encourage lurkers to speak up (the other trying to get OMG to shut up). Which leads us to now, so I ask you Reyo, who, to you, is scum, and are they scummy enough to vote for them?

My personal answer, were you to pose me the question is that I don't know. Thus I'm using my default strategy, waving my vote around on lurker bandwagons, in the hope that one will slip up. In the current situation that is the most useful thing we can really do, whilst we wait for someone to make the first mistake.

[Friend of Old]

Okay, I'll try and do something useful, however my thoughts aren't great. My analysis of before stands up pretty much as it did, we start talking about strategy, then OMG, then roleclaiming, then we have a few lurker wagons, nothing special much. Throughout play what I've noticed is that OMG has an incredibly short temper and a tad confrontational, speaking of OMG there are two things I'd like to say.
Firstly, why would you like me or Oman dead?
Secondly, if that is the case why are you voting GS?
The second question also applies to Reyo, you call me an active lurker and call me scum for saying I really have nothing much useful to contribute, but you follow my style of play and continue to sit on the lurker wagon. If you think I'm scum then you should at the very least FoS me. I wonder why you didn't.

Okay, so onto what is important in mafia, suspicions. Now, as I have already stated, I haven't as of yet got any major suspicions on anybody, and yes I know there are a load of pages to trawl through but most of that is the arguments beween Reyo and OMG. What has struck me throughout that is OMG's poor temper and tendancy to say things that are misunderstood, according to him.

The main point I picked out from OMG is that he always fakeclaims, thus rendering lynch the liar pointless. From what I recall OMG said at the start is that the first thing to do in any situation is to discuss strategy, which Reyo was more than happy to do in this situation, however this seemed to anger OMG because he claimed he was being misunderstood. However his unwillingness to discuss this with Reyo seems a tad inconsistent with his earlier statements.

However there is one person who really wanted to kill such a discussion, this being Oman, who claimed that discussing such would at worst render it pointless because the scum would know whatt the town is planning, at best render the whole thing WIFOM, niether situation did he like so he preferred that stone left unturned.

When I think about it there have only been a few major contributors to this thread, these being Reyo, OMG (for better or for worse), Elias and to a lesser extent GW and I believe blaze has made some valuable input. Most of the rest have been very minor players in comparison, thus difficult to get a read off. Reyo has mostly been arguing with Elias and OMG. GW has been sitting around declaring various people innocent, Elias has been hovering here and there making various comments. I don't really get the stink of scum from any of them, however I don't think I've really seen GW square up to someone and pronounce them scum as of yet nor cast a vote, but rather has been allying with other major players calling them town. So if I might be so bold as to ask, GW, who do you think is scum?

After all of that what do I think? Firstly I agree that OMG may well be town, but I think he is a bit of a loose cannon, and his last couple of posts have not been at all helpful. Reyo strikes me as the most townie player so far and I want to see Ghostwriter making some accusations. As for who is scum? I'd like to see the lurkers make themselves known, so as to get a better read off of them, but I think Oman may be scum because of his attempts to kill off some of the strategy discussion, and some confrontational posts I believe, and I think that GhostWriter may be buddying up to Reyo and OMG.

FoS: Oman & GW

[Friend of Old]

I'm reffering to when Reyo was trying to talk about fakeclaiming and its benefits or lack of thereof. When this was happening you posted a few times telling him to stop where he was and shut up about it. I know you had valid reasons behind it, the WIFOM situation you claimed it would make, but it still struck me as trying to kill the discussion, and I wonder if there was an ulterior motive?
I know it is weak, but like I said before there have been no major scumtells that I've seen so far.

[Friend of Old]

Right, this is getting irritating now, omg this is the second time you just come out and randomly pointed the finger, this time with a vote. You even have clearly stated that you refuse to give reasons, which is completely pointless. Earlier on you were snapping at people for differences of opinion, which are both inevitable and useful because the arguement could flush out a scum or protect a townie, and now you are refusing to contribute anything useful, which is as bad, if not worse than lurking.

Your style of play has become counter-productive to the town, and to be perfectly honest if you don't sort yourself out and start being helpful sharpish, I'll be glad to be rid of you no matter the outcome.

Unvote, Vote: OMG

[Friend of Old]

Welcome Battle Mage, hope you enjoy the game.

Do you guys understand now why I posted what I did? Personally I'd rather not have to put up with this sort of behaviour, from anybody, I feel that it should be removed from the game by replacement or lynching I don't mind. I realise re-reading what I wrote how scummy that sounds and I apologise for any offence caused.

As for why my vote is on you OMG, the last three statements you'd made before my post were:

This wagon has grown way too fast for my liking.

Im pretty happy to kill oman or FoO instead, thoughts?

unvote, vote oman

For both of these you were asked why, the first you ignored, the second you answered with

no

Any you claim to be the most pro-ton player, a claim which I find slightly scummy due to the simple fact I dislike people saying 'hey I'm town', that is for others to judge.

One particular thing that caught me was this:

Im voting for a scum.

You are voting for a pro-town.

Followed by this:

FoO is openly admitting that he is voting for me whilst knowing that im town.

When did I do that? I said I didn't care who you were and that I wanted you lynched, which was overly agressive I'll admit, but at no point did I say you were town, I think you are a scum player, as I stated.
This is after you claim to know who is scum and who isn't, which only the scum do. Nothing is certain in this game and we may be wrong, so please don't make such comments, they're in no way helpful.

From what I remeber pending a re-read, your play seems to have come in three phases, firstly you were active and to my mind townie, although overreacted to Reyo's questioning of the content of your posts, which he apparently misinterpreted. Then you go very quiet for a while during the lurker wagons, making comments like the above, then, this last bit. I've noted Puppy and Oman's involvement as well, but you were the main player. Tell me, after this scene why shouldn't we not want you around any more? Especially after your claim that we were all of a lower intelligence than you.

I believe that Puppy asked for some elaboration on my suspicions a while ago. I believe my suspicion of Ghostwriter has been already covered by, you actually. This post:

There is an amazing amount of bad voting going on. Why are so many of you jumping at the smallest thing? It does nothing more than make you look more suspicious.

Struck me as off, due to the fact that on Day 1 it is highly unlikely anything big will come along, so small things are all we have, and I imagine that many are frustrated with our lack of progress. The other thing that got me was the comments on only how people were innocent, primarily OMG who was under fire at the time, and I got the impression of a possible scum pairing up with a weak townie. After OMG's recent play however I'm not sure if this still stands up.

As for Oman, well I realise that attack was quite weak, but overall I haven't seen much that is helpful from him. What was the term Reyo used, an active-lurker? That's the overall impression I got from him, and various posts seemed like he was trying to provoke an arguement, for example this one:

Wow. Subtle.

This sort of thing annoys me, but my feelings towards his alignment are ambigous, although I don't approve of his handling of the recent incident. That however has no bearing on his scumminess, so, that's it in a nutshell.

[Friend of Old]

I don't like this recent play from Xtoxm, it doesn't seem scummy in particular but it seems almsot as if he's talking just for the sake of talking, making weak points and letting the flow carry him along.

So we are assuming that Elias was a vig kill, thus we can also assume that the person who killed him was convinced of his guilt. Speculation of this however will only give the scum a target, so I suggest we leave it well enough alone. However we should keep this in mind whilst pointing fingers about today.

The death of Blazerunner seems to me like the mafia is playing it safe, I wouldn't say that Blaze stood out as town or scum yesterday and his posting was often overshadowed by others.

Further analysis may come with a re-read, however I doubt that we can garner much from the first few pages as there was little meat there, that came after the various replacements.

[Friend of Old]

I don;t think Dahen's worthy of a vote yet, if he turns up we'll get him to explain but I think chances are he'll be replaced.

As for me, I broke my shotgun two years ago, I'm not a vig.

[Friend of Old]

I can't honestly say that being oblivious towards the current state of the game is a towntell, but neither would I say it is a scumtell. It is pointless and vaugely annoying, but it doesn't tell me anything about dahen.

However it does seem that discussion has stagnated whilst we wait for dahen to finish, but in the meantime why don't we bandy around vauge suspicions, after all I see no value in keeping them to ourselves.

For me I'd have to say that if today were the deadline I'd want to lynch Oman, although I can't honestly say that I have any major lights whirring in my brain, I spent the end of yesterday too focused on getting rid of OMG, I'm not proud or ashamed off it, I just felt it better him gone, as I stated yesterday I found him to be disruptive, and I wans't able to be very active around the end of Day 1. As for Oman, well I felt that yesterday he posted only a few genuinely helpful comments, and for the most part was pretty content to sit on the side and make snide remarks about this that and the other every so often. Is this a playstyle or is there something more here, as I haven't really noticed it today. Maybe it was history with OMG or something else?

[Friend of Old]

My vote was OMGUS? I didn't really think of it that way, I just wanted OMG out really, his attitude was annoying and he had to use several posts instead of poting just one long one. I believe my vote on him was orignally placed after a vote on Oman, was it? I seem to remember that I voted for him for simply voting with no reasons rather than OMGUS, but maybe my memory is faulty.

I guess you guys are right in saying that I've been more of an observer this game. I suppose if you'd like I'll try to be more useful but I feel there is little merit in my posting at the moment, since Xtoxm's Vig claim we seem to have been floundering about doing very little and I find myself with nothing to contribute, again. If you want to know more about why I raised that point on Oman, well, it was just something I picked up yesterday and I wanted to know why he played like that, however he has played rather differently today, there has been a change in attitude I think. I wondered if the catalyst was OMG's lynch and if there was some history behind all of this.

I know that this still is not helpful thus far, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and post a scumdar, maybe a good set of LoS's would be helpful.

Scum

dahen - Pretty much useless, hasn't done much excpet post out of date summaries.
GhostWriter - Has posted little value, seemed to buddy up to OMG at points throughout yesterday. Accused everyone of bad voting as the bandwagoning reasons were weak.
Norinel - Has also posted little of merit, hammered without waiting for town discussion.
Oman - Leaning scum due to inactivity and some fairly useless play mid-day 1 from which my view was tinted slightly scummy.

Town

XReyoX - Consistently active, leaning town, no major scumtells
Battle Mage - Even if his scumdar was a bit skwiffy he has generally scumhinted well and provoked discussion, always good for the town.
Pink Puppy - I think that, especially after you had just replaced in you were a good catalyst for discussion, and I haven't really seen any especially scummy behaviour. Well, none that I can recall right now anyway.
Xtoxm - Undisputed Vig claim.

As for this, general feeling, that some of you are having about my being scum, would you care to elaborate? Nobody has yet faulted what I've said yet you guys simply seem to get the impression that my posts are too, well I guess artificial is the word. Well, I really don't know how I'm supposed to defend myself against that, so I'll just leave that one there.

[Friend of Old]

Dahen is top of that list because I copied the names down from the main post, I don't feel strongly enough about anyone in particular right now to grade them, it is a general scummy vs. townish LoS with people on one side or the other. If I had a high priority suspects and low grade suspects I would have put in per centages or another type of rading system. So Dahen is not necessarily my top suspect, he just happens to be on top of the player roster.

[quote 'Reyo]FoO's LoS is rubbish. Basicly, he could have summarized it into:

Town-People who are active.
Scum-People who post little.

He is not trying to catch scum at tall. [/quote]

I'll grant you it is not the most detailed and most certainly not the most accurate LoS ever made, but don't you think there is a reason that an active person seems more townish than a lurker? If you were to do an LoS right now, how different would it be, just out of interest?

Okay, I'll admit that I'm not going out of my way to scumhunt right now, but neither are you Reyo, nobody is right now. The closest we've come as of late is saying 'FoO seems a bit scummy, I'm not sure why though', which isn't especially helpful, and most of the rest of D2 has been on par with that. So I'll pose to you a question, who do you propose we put under the spotlight?

[Friend of Old]

Xtoxm, was that really a necessary statement, I don't see how it gets us anywhere.

I don't think thats true. I've asked questions and I'm waiting for responses. Although the stuffs I've pointed out aren't major scumtells, I believe the answers can move the game forward. "Nobody is scumhunting right now" <-- is not true either.

Really? to me the atmoshpere is one of us just sitting around waiting for the next big thing to happen, however unfortunately I don't think that's going to happen. Maybe I would be more accurate if I said we currently have no hardcore scumhunting going on, just soft, light 'feelings' being thrown around.

As of now, I only have the fact that you believe my calling out a bad bandwagon was a tell. Maybe they're right. Maybe you're just working with a bad radar at the moment. But I only have that feeling you give me of being mafia. However, you aren't the only one I have that feeling about anymore.

Me questioning you about why, while we were trying to create oppertunities through (I'll admit that they were weak) bandwagons you just sat around saying we were voting poorly. In my experience if you bandwaggon on the weak reasons you have at the start behaviour on that bandwagon leads to antoher stronger one, and so on and so forth. We start by random voting, then we vote for weak reasons because there won't be any strong ones. If you had said 'Guys, look, this is poor, what we should be doing is... and this will progress us by...' I wouldn't have a problem. However what you were doing was essentially saying that we should stop the bandwagons and, do what exactly? Discussion would stagnate, deadline rolls round, free shot for scum.

Now am I misinterpreting what you were doing, or am I on the right track?

And also who are these other people you get scummy 'vibes' from, maybe there is something worth persuing.

[Friend of Old]

I've got the prod, and I think that I'm still right that we have no major scumhunting going on, everyone seems to have simply given up and slumped over. This of course is of no benefit because it doesn't really give us anything at all worthwhile. However, considering we're on the final week I'll:

Vote: GW

For reasons previously stated.

[Friend of Old]

Sorry, that's my fault. I read the earlier request as just vote to create discussion, if we're looking for a bandwagon (which you guys clearly are seeing as how I have an FoS and a vote for not doing so), I'll do what is required of me.

After this wierd lurking thing and just a general feeling I'll

unvote, vote: Oman

, as he'll probably respond to discussion rather than summarise previous statements. Dahen will just summarise previous statements. Plus while I'm here I'll apologise for general inactivity, it's just that I have a few pressing problems elsewhere which need sorting, so I'm a tad scatterbrained at the moment.

[Friend of Old]

Out of academic interest, what exactly is the case against me? I've failed to see anyone actually post a coherent arguemnet against me. How am I supposed to defend myself against absolutely nothing.

If Reyo or GW would be so kind as to actually accuse me of something scummy then maybe I can do something about it, but as it stands there really is nothing I can do. For the record, I find the way you are attacking me to be quite scummy, so please stop.

[Friend of Old]

Dahen I've been quiet because I (much like everyone else recently) have very little to say that is useful. Plus how do you get the idea that because you can't find anything scummy on me that I'm lynch worthy? That makes no sense at all.

GW, you've ignored my last post. WHY am I a top prospect of a lynch? What precisely are you accusing me of.

[Friend of Old]

So you are voting for me because of a possibility that I posted? If nobody ever made accusations we wouldn't get anywhere. Also note the arguement against you wasn't for saying 'You're all rubbish', it's because you didn't provide a viable alternative. You just said that there's a load of bad voting going on, which isn't helpful at all. So if you want to see me lynched because I pointed that out by calling it a poor reason for a vote, you are being incredibly hypocritical.

If you have more reason to vote for Dahen then do so, all we need is an extension. Thus:

Mod, would an extension be possible so that we can get out of this absurd situation?