Mini 559 - Cult Mafia again - Game over

[Battle Mage]

I should probably address this tho:

In post 104 he again assumes that the mafia defo have a GF. Is this deliberately misleading the town, or is he revealing info? The latter seems more likely imo.

When I first read the original post (I dont play on this site much), I read it as: "Mafia PM's: then two mafia pms below". I was under the impression that as there were 2 mafia in the game, and 2 mafia pms listed, that those were the 2 pms that were sent out to mafia. I assumed from the OP that the role setup was 1 cultist, 1 mafia goon, 1 mafia godfather, and then an unknown amount of village power roles to enable those bad guys to claim easier. I also further assumed that if there was a godfather in the game then there must also be a cop, otherwise the godfather role would be useless. I mention this in my earlier posts.

yep thats fair enough. Of course there is almost certainly a Cop anyway, in order to allow for the WIFOM of a GF.

I didnt want to discuss this earlier, because I felt it would be really angleshooty and unfair to the real scum, as if i didnt know this then I am pretty much 100% town/cultist. I was quite happy to let it go and just play on without taking the unfair advantage of angleshooting.

Im not familiar with the term 'angleshooting'. But if what you are saying is that you are worried about being confirmed town-dont be. In fact, even implying that it makes you confirmed town is incredibly scummy. It could only even be CONSIDERED a towntell, if the scum have 2 goons, which is far from proven. And even then, im not sure it holds up.

And anyway, why the f*** would you NOT want to clear yourself of being scum? I mean, im all for fair play, but if i thought id given off a massive towntell, id want people to know about it, so i didnt get lynched. Your motivation in this game is getting wierder and wierder.

However, as unbelievable as it is someone is actually reading this as a 'scumtell', I feel I should address it now. You forced my hand, I do apologise to the real scum but it was a simple misunderstanding.

rofl. Yeh, its CRAZY to think that an obvious mafia slip up could be a scumtell. What was i thinking eh?

BM

[Pink Puppy]

4) I am defending OMG adamantly because I've played with him twice before and seen lynched for weak reasons that were spurred on by bad reactions on his part. Both times he's been town.

Just because you have seen OMG play this way as town, does not mean he is town again. Have you seen him play as scum? How does he act differently? Don't players TRY to act the same way as scum and as town so they are harder to catch? I know the key word is TRY, and the reality is that it is very hard to play the same way. But I think it's weird that you are "adament" about omg being town.

Do you still believe the reasons against him are weak? And that all the hubbub is just "bad reactions" on his part?

[XReyoX]

CKD is what i call CuriousKarmaDog. Which is odd because he is the Mod. I guess i mustve made a mistake. It should be pretty apparent who i meant if u read back. The entire analysis is done in chronological order.

I've checked. It should have been elias. I didn't get the joke becaues I didn't know he was already voting OMG until others pointed it out. Nothing to read from there.

Correction. The first half is you trying to make Oman's suggested strategy seem scummy, when in fact it is not. The second half is you misrepresenting him further. I did say that it could just be that you didnt understand any of what Oman had said.

I wasn't trying trying to make Oman's suggested strategy seem scummy. I still believe it is scummy because it confuses the town and allow the scum to make an excuse to fakeclaim as well. Still... no one has given me an example of how effective fakeclaiming on the town side can be so the strategy isn't back up by previous games or anything.

Exactly. And someone with even the slightest amount of experience understands the concept of the 'newbie card'. LLL chose not to play it, and made himself look scummier, but in a way i felt was genuine.

Actually, choosing not to play the newbie card was one of my scum tactics. I won 2 games as scums when I first joined. I don't know whether doing so actually contribute to me winning the game or not but i did say, don't treat me like a newbie and attack me if you find me scummy, thinking it would make me look pro-town. Maybe i was just me. But then i wasn't focusing on that. It was the fact that a) she is an experienced player and b) she suggested we should random lynch together made me feel she's scummy.

its post 163. If you really think any of it valid, repost it, and ill happily take it apart for you.

Break me down for it please. AND with links to games if possible.

You've never played a game with multiple killing groups?

I have but this is not one of those, is it?

But the advantage would be that the RB could be confirmed by the blocked power role, and so even a worst case scenario achieves some good.

A RB can be confirmed, but you won't know which side he is on. Pretty pointless don't you think? On the other hand a doc can also be confirmed by misskills. The scums can choose not to kill at night but it would be their loss. In this game, it would be even worse for them if they do so as the cult will keep growing.

His suggestion that a Mafia RB might be suspected is only true if the RB blocks a CLAIMED POWER ROLE, which is a false dilemma.

I did not say that its only true if the RB blocks a claimed power role. Why would a Town RB want block a claimed power role?

????? OK, lets say someone claims to be a cop but it is not confirmed. Why would you block him if you're a town RB? How is that beneficial to the town?

I'll comment on other stuffs after these are sorted. I first thing I don't want is people thinking I'm scum because I haven't explain myself clear enough or thinking I'm scum for reasons I don't even understand. If you have particular ones that you want me to give my views on urgently, then feel free to ask me.

[Battle Mage]

Correction. The first half is you trying to make Oman's suggested strategy seem scummy, when in fact it is not. The second half is you misrepresenting him further. I did say that it could just be that you didnt understand any of what Oman had said.

I wasn't trying trying to make Oman's suggested strategy seem scummy. I still believe it is scummy because it confuses the town and allow the scum to make an excuse to fakeclaim as well. Still... no one has given me an example of how effective fakeclaiming on the town side can be so the strategy isn't back up by previous games or anything.

The basic idea is, Cult wants to find townies, Mafia wants to find power roles. If the Cult targets a power role, they dont get anything. If the Mafia target a townie, we dont lose a power role. Its basic logic to want to confuse them.
Examples of fakeclaiming in normal games are claiming cop as a doc, as i did in Clue. It did backfire in the end, but my claim ensured that i survived to endgame as opposed to dying Night 1.

Exactly. And someone with even the slightest amount of experience understands the concept of the 'newbie card'. LLL chose not to play it, and made himself look scummier, but in a way i felt was genuine.

Actually, choosing not to play the newbie card was one of my scum tactics. I won 2 games as scums when I first joined. I don't know whether doing so actually contribute to me winning the game or not but i did say, don't treat me like a newbie and attack me if you find me scummy, thinking it would make me look pro-town.

Yeah, so you did it because it looked protown. Difference here is, i dont think LLL was quite competent enough to do that, and her post felt genuine.

its post 163. If you really think any of it valid, repost it, and ill happily take it apart for you.

Break me down for it please. AND with links to games if possible.

links to games?
Have you even READ the post in question?

You've never played a game with multiple killing groups?

I have but this is not one of those, is it?

true enough

But the advantage would be that the RB could be confirmed by the blocked power role, and so even a worst case scenario achieves some good.

A RB can be confirmed, but you won't know which side he is on. Pretty pointless don't you think? On the other hand a doc can also be confirmed by misskills. The scums can choose not to kill at night but it would be their loss. In this game, it would be even worse for them if they do so as the cult will keep growing.

Lol Mafia RB is generally pretty rare. Id even say more rare than a mafia choosing not to kill, or the doc protecting against a kill that would have hit scum.

His suggestion that a Mafia RB might be suspected is only true if the RB blocks a CLAIMED POWER ROLE, which is a false dilemma.

I did not say that its only true if the RB blocks a claimed power role. Why would a Town RB want block a claimed power role?

????? OK, lets say someone claims to be a cop but it is not confirmed. Why would you block him if you're a town RB? How is that beneficial to the town?

what the fuck are you talking about? A town RB isnt going to block a claimed cop unless he has a V good reason. You seem to be insinuating that anyone who considers blocking a claimed power role MUST be a mafia RB, which is untrue.

BM

[XReyoX]

I'm confused and don't really know what I'm answering but this is post 163.

By claiming town as RB he prevents himself from being NKEd by scum first night.

This means the scum would have gone for someone else and that someone else could be a doc/ cop (more powerful power roles). And if later on in the game you've found a scum with your role blocking, it would be very difficult to convince other townie since you've lied at the beginning. If you've blocked a town power role previously, by not declaring you are one and whom you've blocked, they would think there is a mafia role-blocker as well.

if he claims doc while town he draws the kill away from power roles.

In this case, you'll draw more suspicion from the real doc if there is one. You might even cause the real doc to claim if he really think you're scum. Also, if a doc die after you've fakeclaim, unless you're really good, the chance you could talk yourself out of this is dim.

Lol Mafia RB is generally pretty rare. Id even say more rare than a mafia choosing not to kill, or the doc protecting against a kill that would have hit scum.

Rare=/= doesn't exist

what the fuck are you talking about? A town RB isnt going to block a claimed cop unless he has a V good reason. You seem to be insinuating that anyone who considers blocking a claimed power role MUST be a mafia RB, which is untrue.

Thats what I'm saying. A TOWN RB isn't going to block a claimed cop unless has a V good reason. So if you're a claimed cop and you get blocked, what do you think?

[Blazerunner]

Some things to comment

I kind of feel that you're making yourself hard to read and hve NOT put a tiny bit of effort into finding scum at all. You voted elias before because he agreed that fakeclaiming is alright. Fair enough at the beginning, but you made no effort in pushing the case further or anything and took the vote back on the next day. You then appear only once every 2 or 3 days thereafter just to comment on the inactivity of various people. What about dahen, FoO, GW, Norinel, Pinkpuppy, Xtoxm, oman and me? Thats more than half the players in the game. Haven't you got anything to say?

Well, I hadnt realized, but now I see I am really doing it, though unniontentionally... No escuses or denyings here

[quote="Pink Puppy]The wiki has a good explanation ot it here: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM[/quote]

Thanks for the link, it really helped. On the other hand, I started clicking lots of links on the wiki, about game theory, dillemas, and stuff, lots of interesting stuff, but it deviated me from re-reading the post

I couldnt read it all, nor with much attention, but I have come to this: I think both elias and OMG have something scummy about them, but I cant really quote any posts right now, its just a general conclusion from what I have seen this far. But while both look suspicious, I dont think they both are mafia at the same time because of this:

vote: omg_im_innocent_wtf
because we have history.

no, hes changed some. before he got impatient and tired of town really quickly, and basically just swore at people (this was as town). And I apparently got really pissed at him, reading the old games. Ironically, thats kind of my style now, though not to the same extent. But yeah, hes definately a bit different in this game, either because of time away from the site or because of him being scum this time.

If I was mafia, and knew the other mafia, I wouldnt point at the very begining we knew each other, as it makes people ask you to comment the other's play, and you might end up turning yourself in.

While mafia goons can sometimes play "against" each other, pointing the other's tiniest mistakes to make it seem like they are in opposite teams in case one gets discovered, I dont think he would even create this link saying "hey, I know him, ask me questions about him", just to say "yeah, he is different from when he was town" and look like he is atacking the other goon.

I am not 100% sure, but I think either OMG is scum and elias is being sincere, or Elias is scum and decided to link himself to OMG just to have someone to drag in case he got caught. There is one thing that makes me uncertain about it:

What about dahen, FoO, GW, Norinel, Pinkpuppy, Xtoxm, oman and me? Thats more than half the players in the game. Haven't you got anything to say?[/quote]

Well, I hadnt realized, but now I see I am really doing it, though unniontentionally... No escuses or denyings here

The wiki has a good explanation ot it here: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM

Thanks for the link, it really helped. On the other hand, I started clicking lots of links on the wiki, about game theory, dillemas, and stuff, lots of interesting stuff, but it deviated me from re-reading the post

I couldnt read it all, nor with much attention, but I have come to this: I think both elias and OMG have something scummy about them, but I cant really quote any posts right now, its just a general conclusion from what I have seen this far. But while both look suspicious, I dont think they both are mafia at the same time because of this:

vote: omg_im_innocent_wtf
because we have history.

no, hes changed some. before he got impatient and tired of town really quickly, and basically just swore at people (this was as town). And I apparently got really pissed at him, reading the old games. Ironically, thats kind of my style now, though not to the same extent. But yeah, hes definately a bit different in this game, either because of time away from the site or because of him being scum this time.

Here he is saying OMG is different from when he is townie. While some mafia really atack each other just to look innocent if the other is caught, and avoid any links, I dont think elias would do it, if both were mafia, because by doing it he created a link between him and OMG, forcing himself to comment about OMG'a play, which could lead him into a mistake.

I mean Elias wouldnt create a link saying "hey I know me" and offering to comment on his play just to say he is strange to avoid links, get it?

I think either OMG is scum and Elias is being sincere, or Elias is scum and said he knew OMG just so he could have any link and drag someone with him if he got caught. This is my conclusion from these posts made early in the post.

[Blazerunner]

mod, could you fix my quote on Pink puppy last post? It went wrong, I should have closed it after the link to the wiki. Thanks

[Blazerunner]

mod, could you fix my quote on Pink puppy last post? It went wrong, I should have closed it after the link to the wiki. Thanks

In fact, my entire post went wrong, I thought I had erased a part, and didnt, and re-typed somethings.... I will just post now the right way...

[Blazerunner]

Some things to comment

I kind of feel that you're making yourself hard to read and hve NOT put a tiny bit of effort into finding scum at all. You voted elias before because he agreed that fakeclaiming is alright. Fair enough at the beginning, but you made no effort in pushing the case further or anything and took the vote back on the next day. You then appear only once every 2 or 3 days thereafter just to comment on the inactivity of various people. What about dahen, FoO, GW, Norinel, Pinkpuppy, Xtoxm, oman and me? Thats more than half the players in the game. Haven't you got anything to say?

Well, I hadnt realized, but now I see I am really doing it, though unniontentionally... No escuses or denyings here

The wiki has a good explanation ot it here: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM

Thanks for the link, it really helped. On the other hand, I started clicking lots of links on the wiki, about game theory, dillemas, and stuff, lots of interesting stuff, but it deviated me from re-reading the post

I couldnt read it all, nor with much attention, but I have come to this: I think both elias and OMG have something scummy about them, but I cant really quote any posts right now, its just a general conclusion from what I have seen this far. But while both look suspicious, I dont think they both are mafia at the same time because of this:

vote: omg_im_innocent_wtf
because we have history.

no, hes changed some. before he got impatient and tired of town really quickly, and basically just swore at people (this was as town). And I apparently got really pissed at him, reading the old games. Ironically, thats kind of my style now, though not to the same extent. But yeah, hes definately a bit different in this game, either because of time away from the site or because of him being scum this time.

If I was mafia, and knew the other mafia, I wouldnt point at the very begining we knew each other, as it makes people ask you to comment the other's play, and you might end up turning yourself in.

Here he is saying OMG is different from when he is townie. While some mafia really atack each other just to look innocent if the other is caught, and avoid any links, I dont think elias would do it, if both were mafia, because by doing it he created a link between him and OMG, forcing himself to comment about OMG'a play, which could lead him into a mistake.

I mean Elias wouldnt create a link saying "hey I know me" and offering to comment on his play just to say he is strange to avoid links, get it?

While mafia goons can sometimes play "against" each other, pointing the other's tiniest mistakes to make it seem like they are in opposite teams in case one gets discovered, I dont think he would even create this link saying "hey, I know him, ask me questions about him", just to say "yeah, he is different from when he was town" and look like he is atacking the other goon.

I am not 100% sure, but I think either OMG is scum and elias is being sincere, or Elias is scum and decided to link himself to OMG just to have someone to drag in case he got caught. There is one thing that makes me uncertain about it:

I think either OMG is scum and Elias is being sincere, or Elias is scum and said he knew OMG just so he could have any link and drag someone with him if he got caught. This is my conclusion from these posts made early in the post.

[Blazerunner]

Damm, the end still was repeated, nevermind.

As I said in one "version" of the post, there is one thing that goes againnst what I just posted:

[quote:"Elias_the_thief"]4) I am defending OMG adamantly because I've played with him twice before and seen lynched for weak reasons that were spurred on by bad reactions on his part. Both times he's been town. [/quote]

I said he wouldnt say he knew it to draw suspiscious about him if both were mafia, but here he is doingg the opposite... I am a bit puzzled...

[Pink Puppy]

Sorry but the argument that omg and elias can't be scum together is classic WIFOM.

Look at this quote about it:

In Mafia, WIFOM arguments are often a Scum tactic used to distract the Town. The scum will make an unusual play at night, which would lead to a situation that would 'clear' them (because players will think, "Why would a scum do that?"). These arguments are sometimes used by Newbies and should be avoided in favor of clearer arguments.

Elias could have made that comment about omg intentionally as an unusual play so that later it will look like "but scum wouldn't do that!"

It's just too hard to guess.

[Blazerunner]

Damm be my quotes, and sorry for the flooding I caused, if the mod can do anything to clean up, I would apreciate like fixing my quotes and perhaps deleting something if he thinks he can do it without destroying my posts' idea

[Blazerunner]

Sorry but the argument that omg and elias can't be scum together is classic WIFOM.

Look at this quote about it:

In Mafia, WIFOM arguments are often a Scum tactic used to distract the Town. The scum will make an unusual play at night, which would lead to a situation that would 'clear' them (because players will think, "Why would a scum do that?"). These arguments are sometimes used by Newbies and should be avoided in favor of clearer arguments.

Elias could have made that comment about omg intentionally as an unusual play so that later it will look like "but scum wouldn't do that!"

It's just too hard to guess.

I just dont think he would do it, but it really is WIFOM, if I say "it doesnt look like mafia" you can always say "but perhaps THAT is why he is doing it". But it doesnt mean we cant have a feel about it, or chose one of the options.

The fact is: as both are smelling like scum, what I would do if I was in control of the game would be:

-Lynch one of them
-Have cop investigate the other, if there is a cop
-Perhaps have doc protect the other, if there is a doc, in case he is townie, so he cant be cultified, in case the cultist agree with me that one of them might be tonwie. Of course, me saying who should the doctor protect kinda leads to wifom again, but there is nothing I can do.

I am leaving right now, and wont sleep at home, so probably wont make a post in the next 14~16 hours, I know there will be a lot for me to answer on what I just said, but I simply wont be able to do it immediately

[Blazerunner]

One last thing, I am just not voting right now because I need to find some posts that justifiy the "general feeling" i have about the 2 of them, and because I want to see people's and their reactions to what I just said.

[Elias_the_thief]

Simply put, scum need to survive to win. Townies dont TO THE SAME EXTENT.

Actually, scum dont need to survive to win. Lots of gambits involve scum sacrificing themselves to help the town, and bussing is common practice. With experienced scum, the instinct to survive really shouldnt be something exhibited.

Equally, townies tend not to be defensive to start with.

Not true. Noobs will instinctively defend themselves adamantly, not because they want to stay in for town benefit, but because they dont want to stop playing. Its two motives working against eachother, but it varies whether noob townies fall into it or not.

A defensive townie is useless.

Thats not true either. A townie who successfully defends himself stops a townie lynch and increases the likelihood of a scum lynch. Also, once he has defended himself sufficiently he can go back to scumhunting.

We want aggressive townies who keep scum on their toes, and are constantly watching for slips. If a player is not scumhunting, and instead seems to be solely concerned with his own survival, he is probably scum.

The last part is again, not true.

Ah ok. I guess you didnt make this last point clear. So posting alot at the start of the day, when little of value is being discussed is ok, but posting alot when the town gets into its stride is real fishy, right?

*shrug*
His posts felt that way to me. Posting a lot without much real content is good to get discussion going, continuing to make large posts with little content is a bit fishy when there is content to discuss.

link me to these games please.

Mini 417
Mini 424

---

1)

It shouldn't be entirely random... ever.

2)

I mean, how will a random bandwagon tell you anything? It puts pressure on the person being bandwagonned, and you can get info about that person.

3)

But isn't the person apt to attack you for random bandwagonning?

4)

And how are you supposed to analyze anything about the bandwagonners? Any attack on their behavior can be explained away by "hey, guys, it was just random, I didn't mean anything by it."

Numbered by me for answering convenience:
1) It usually isn't. Mine was for because LLL was suggesting a random lynch. It was a very small reason, but I wanted a wagon to get discussion going.
2) You dont declare a random wagon as random, usually. The person under pressure may think it is serious and his reactions will help you learn things later in the game. Also, you can archive how people act on the wagon to help later on in the game. More important is that it starts discussion. Without discussion nothing happens.
3) You don't declare it as random, and bandwagons ARE accepted behavior, at least among experienced players. So you're unlikely to be attacked.
4) The other bandwagoners may not know its random. Players might be willing to lynch for a bad reason (see: random bandwagons are in actuality for small reasons). Also, if you learn the alignment about any players involved, it tells you more about the other players involved (scum links).

---

The points against me are completely WIFOM...in regards to OMG, I'm just saying I've seen him go down as town on reasons like this in two games (I was scum in both of those) and hes exhibiting similar reactions here. I'm not saying its a town tell, but for him these are NOT scum tells. I won't condone a lynch of his without further evidence, because people often mistake his annoying playstyle for scummy play.

[Norinel]

On the one hand, it feels good to see a lot of huge posts that aren't just OMG vs. the world. On the other hand, my brain's sort of glazing over most of it right now, but here are a few points I thought were interesting.

what the fuck are you talking about? A town RB isnt going to block a claimed cop unless he has a V good reason. You seem to be insinuating that anyone who considers blocking a claimed power role MUST be a mafia RB, which is untrue.

Thats what I'm saying. A TOWN RB isn't going to block a claimed cop unless has a V good reason. So if you're a claimed cop and you get blocked, what do you think?

I'm not sure where this argument started- BM seems to be arguing that Xreyo is proposing an unreasonable extreme, but I'm not seeing it.

One last thing, I am just not voting right now because I need to find some posts that justifiy the "general feeling" i have about the 2 of them, and because I want to see people's and their reactions to what I just said.

There's no reason that a "general feeling" shouldn't be enough for a vote. We're pretty late in the day, but votes have been thrown around for less.

Actually, scum dont need to survive to win. Lots of gambits involve scum sacrificing themselves to help the town, and bussing is common practice. With experienced scum, the instinct to survive really shouldnt be something exhibited.

Yes, technically, but dying as scum hurts your side a lot more than dying as town. And of course, the cult recruiter's survival instinct should be the highest of all, since right now his death means his side loses, and a death later makes things significantly harder for the cult.

[Elias_the_thief]

Hrm. I hadn't been considering overdefensiveness in light of the Recruiter, only mafia. That makes things a little more interesting. I have to think on it.

[omg_im_innocent_wtf]

rofl @ the idea of me and elias being scum together.

man that would have been fun.

battle mage - do you or do you not understand what an analogy is? you made it clear repeatedly in your earlier post that you didnt understand the language i was using, and thats fair enough, i should have been clearer. the misunderstandings are basically both our faults, and like i said i will not use such complex language again (i am used to playing with ppl that speak similarly to myself).

please reread post 339 and nothing else. explain to me which of my actions there is scummy. anything that isnt in post 339 YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD. i cant make this clearer for you. im not going to waste everyones time spending 3 pages explaining each little thing. im sorry for writing in complex language earlier and i will not write in such language again.

please address post 339 and then explain your vote.

[omg_im_innocent_wtf]

btw if i had to guess, i would say:

FoO + Elias are scum.

Unsure on the cultist right now. There are too many totally insane anti-town players in this game to pick it.

[omg_im_innocent_wtf]

Actually, you know what, lynching a townie is a great result for us today. It saves our power roles from claiming, and it means the cultist is completely in the dark tonite.

Also, and more importantly - If i wasnt to die, any cultist with an IQ >50 would be able to see that i was obviously a townie given my earlier give away about not being scum, and would recruit me tonight.

So much right now is confusing as heck because people cant see for sure that I am pro-town. Some people are having a lot of trouble understanding the things I have written, and I think things would be a lot clearer if I was dead and proven townie. Then you can all look back on today and actually look at who was pushing me with craplogic (FoO), and who was defending me with no reason (Elias).

This may be unorthodox, but this is not me giving up, this is me truly doing what I feel is best for the village, me surviving today ensures I get recruited tonite and thus makes a town victory very difficult. Gl guys, someone hammer please.

Unvote, Vote: Omg_im_innocent_wtf

Also - Mod please pm me the roles of scum/cultist after I die, my final guess is:

Scum - FoO, Elias
Cultist - Battle Mage

[omg_im_innocent_wtf]

Also and finally - I do swear that if I play any future games on here I will simplify my language from the beginning, I was unaware that things like analogies and hypothetical situations were so confusing/unknown to the general public and for the oversight I apologise.

[Pink Puppy]

link me to these games please.

Mini 417
Mini 424

---

I see that he was lynched for similar behavior in the first game, but looks like he was NKed in the second game.

His behavior is shockingly similar in the first game as his behavior in this game. Emotional appeals, insulting anyone who thinks he's scummy. I think he deserved to be lynched that game. Generally making himself easy to lynch. And for a townie that's bad play. If you make yourself look scummy as a townie, you're not helping the town. Because other townies will genuinely think you're scum, and it will make it hard to catch scum on crap reasoning -- because the reasons aren't crappy.

I'm sure OMG still thinks I am retarded. But I think that he should reevaluate his play style if his behavior always gets him lynched as town. He seems to think he is always right and anyone who disagrees with him is retarded. Nobody is always right. And I don't think anyone on this site is retarded, or even of below-average intelligence.

Also and finally - I do swear that if I play any future games on here I will simplify my language from the beginning, I was unaware that things like analogies and hypothetical situations were so confusing/unknown to the general public and for the oversight I apologise.

Do you realize how condescending this statement is? Analogies and hypothetical situations are not confusing to people, and it is not why people are voting you. If you are having a problem getting lynched as town, it is not because you are smarter than everyone else.

But I also think that we can't know his alignment because of his alignment in other games. So those examples don't clear him, for me.

I also think self voting is always a bad idea. Especially when there is a lot of discussion happening and I am feeling as happy to lynch Elias as OMG at this time. IMO, the tide is swinging against Elias.

But I'm not going to unvote someone who wants to be lynched. If omg unvotes himself, I am up for lynching elias. But if omg wants to lynch himself, I say go for it.

[Elias_the_thief]

Um...why is the tide swinging towards me again? I haven't heard a single good point against me...

[XReyoX]

I agree with puppy.

In addition, omg, if you lynch yourself, we will have less information to work with on day2 in comparision with having 7 other people on your wagon.

[Pink Puppy]

1)

It shouldn't be entirely random... ever.

2)

I mean, how will a random bandwagon tell you anything? It puts pressure on the person being bandwagonned, and you can get info about that person.

3)

But isn't the person apt to attack you for random bandwagonning?

4)

And how are you supposed to analyze anything about the bandwagonners? Any attack on their behavior can be explained away by "hey, guys, it was just random, I didn't mean anything by it."

Numbered by me for answering convenience:
1) It usually isn't. Mine was for because LLL was suggesting a random lynch. It was a very small reason, but I wanted a wagon to get discussion going.
2) You dont declare a random wagon as random, usually. The person under pressure may think it is serious and his reactions will help you learn things later in the game. Also, you can archive how people act on the wagon to help later on in the game. More important is that it starts discussion. Without discussion nothing happens.
3) You don't declare it as random, and bandwagons ARE accepted behavior, at least among experienced players. So you're unlikely to be attacked.
4) The other bandwagoners may not know its random. Players might be willing to lynch for a bad reason (see: random bandwagons are in actuality for small reasons). Also, if you learn the alignment about any players involved, it tells you more about the other players involved (scum links).

^^^^^^^^^^BACKTRACKING!


First you said:

I was suggesting a random wagon. Random wagons are extremely good for town.

So I said:

I think even early in a game you can pick on something small to start a bandwagon. It shouldn't be entirely random... ever.

So you answer with:

It usually isn't. Mine was for because LLL was suggesting a random lynch. It was a very small reason, but I wanted a wagon to get discussion going.

So it isn't really random, is it? You're basically agreeing with me, and saying now that you weren't random bandwagoning. U can't have it both ways.