Mini 559 - Cult Mafia again - Game over

[Elias_the_thief]

I see that he was lynched for similar behavior in the first game, but looks like he was NKed in the second game.

Oh yeah i forgot that. he was acting similarly in that one though, despite getting NKed (a doc claim saved him i think).

His behavior is shockingly similar in the first game as his behavior in this game. Emotional appeals, insulting anyone who thinks he's scummy. I think he deserved to be lynched that game. Generally making himself easy to lynch. And for a townie that's bad play. If you make yourself look scummy as a townie, you're not helping the town. Because other townies will genuinely think you're scum, and it will make it hard to catch scum on crap reasoning -- because the reasons aren't crappy.

Actually, if the town is any good at all, they'll realize that its the townies playstyle (the way he plays as town AND scum) and thus not scumtells or towntellls, but nulltells. Its not his fault that the quality of play on this site has gone so far down that its a uesless tactic nowadays.

I am feeling as happy to lynch Elias as OMG at this time. IMO, the tide is swinging against Elias.

Why am I scum?

[Battle Mage]

what the fuck are you talking about? A town RB isnt going to block a claimed cop unless he has a V good reason. You seem to be insinuating that anyone who considers blocking a claimed power role MUST be a mafia RB, which is untrue.

Thats what I'm saying. A TOWN RB isn't going to block a claimed cop unless has a V good reason. So if you're a claimed cop and you get blocked, what do you think?

*sigh* this is not what you originally said. You said that if an unclaimed power role was blocked we should assume a mafia RB which is incorrect.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Sorry but the argument that omg and elias can't be scum together is classic WIFOM.

Look at this quote about it:

In Mafia, WIFOM arguments are often a Scum tactic used to distract the Town. The scum will make an unusual play at night, which would lead to a situation that would 'clear' them (because players will think, "Why would a scum do that?"). These arguments are sometimes used by Newbies and should be avoided in favor of clearer arguments.

Elias could have made that comment about omg intentionally as an unusual play so that later it will look like "but scum wouldn't do that!"

It's just too hard to guess.

actually i see what Blazerunner is trying to say. Why would Elias draw such attention to himself? Except you forget that with 2 mafia in the game, they arent going to want to see the other die on Day 1. I dont think its unreasonable that he would defend his buddy outright, as he can always call in the WIFOM argument later.

BM

[Elias_the_thief]

Hey guys...its a null tell. Thats what WIFOM is. Theres no reason to keep wasting time arguing about it. I defended OMG because I've seen him lynched as town for these exact reasons.

[Battle Mage]

Simply put, scum need to survive to win. Townies dont TO THE SAME EXTENT.

Actually, scum dont need to survive to win. Lots of gambits involve scum sacrificing themselves to help the town, and bussing is common practice. With experienced scum, the instinct to survive really shouldnt be something exhibited.

In this game they do. With only 2 mafia and a Cult Recruiter, bussing isnt something i expect to see for a while yet. Ive never yet seen a scum gambit which was designed to help the town.

Equally, townies tend not to be defensive to start with.

Not true. Noobs will instinctively defend themselves adamantly, not because they want to stay in for town benefit, but because they dont want to stop playing. Its two motives working against eachother, but it varies whether noob townies fall into it or not.

theres a difference between defending yourself adamantly and being more concerned with your own survival than your victory in the game.

A defensive townie is useless.

Thats not true either. A townie who successfully defends himself stops a townie lynch and increases the likelihood of a scum lynch. Also, once he has defended himself sufficiently he can go back to scumhunting.

A defensive townie will not successfully defend himself. A defensive townie gets lynched BECAUSE he is defensive. If a townie isnt scumhunting at all times, he isnt doing his job, although obviously i appreciate that he has to try and survive aswell.

We want aggressive townies who keep scum on their toes, and are constantly watching for slips. If a player is not scumhunting, and instead seems to be solely concerned with his own survival, he is probably scum.

The last part is again, not true.

I guess that is subject to experience. How many games have you played on MS?

link me to these games please.

Mini 417
Mini 424

will check over those games when i get time.

BM

[Battle Mage]

On the one hand, it feels good to see a lot of huge posts that aren't just OMG vs. the world. On the other hand, my brain's sort of glazing over most of it right now, but here are a few points I thought were interesting.

what the fuck are you talking about? A town RB isnt going to block a claimed cop unless he has a V good reason. You seem to be insinuating that anyone who considers blocking a claimed power role MUST be a mafia RB, which is untrue.

Thats what I'm saying. A TOWN RB isn't going to block a claimed cop unless has a V good reason. So if you're a claimed cop and you get blocked, what do you think?

I'm not sure where this argument started- BM seems to be arguing that Xreyo is proposing an unreasonable extreme, but I'm not seeing it.

Umm, you might wanna try going back and reading the original point. The actual discussion was over whether or not a power role getting RBed was necessarily the work of a Mafia RB, which, if the power role hadnt claimed, is of course not true.

BM

[Battle Mage]

rofl @ the idea of me and elias being scum together.

man that would have been fun.

battle mage - do you or do you not understand what an analogy is? you made it clear repeatedly in your earlier post that you didnt understand the language i was using, and thats fair enough, i should have been clearer. the misunderstandings are basically both our faults, and like i said i will not use such complex language again (i am used to playing with ppl that speak similarly to myself).

please reread post 339 and nothing else. explain to me which of my actions there is scummy. anything that isnt in post 339 YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD. i cant make this clearer for you. im not going to waste everyones time spending 3 pages explaining each little thing. im sorry for writing in complex language earlier and i will not write in such language again.

please address post 339 and then explain your vote.

lol im not an idiot. I know what an analogy is. I just dont understand how you think that your suicidal strategies can be excused by using the 'a' word. Give me some context to work from please.

BM

[Elias_the_thief]

In this game they do. With only 2 mafia and a Cult Recruiter, bussing isnt something i expect to see for a while yet. Ive never yet seen a scum gambit which was designed to help the town.

I'm not saying that they are as of yet. More likely scum is sitting back and not touching this situation. I was just using that point to illustrate that overdefensiveness is not a good scumtell.

theres a difference between defending yourself adamantly and being more concerned with your own survival than your victory in the game.

I don't believe that OMG has crossed the threshhold from the former to the latter, especially seeing as he's advocating his own lynch. Even if he had, I still dont think its a scumtell.

A defensive townie will not successfully defend himself. A defensive townie gets lynched BECAUSE he is defensive. If a townie isnt scumhunting at all times, he isnt doing his job, although obviously i appreciate that he has to try and survive aswell.

I have successfully defended myself as a townie in several games...games I've won. Players being lynched because they are defensive is a meta problem, and ridiculous. Its basically saying "youre scum" and yelling YOURE DEFENDING YOURSELF ZOMG LYNCH when they try to say otherwise.

I guess that is subject to experience. How many games have you played on MS?

19, 20. I'm not sure. Probably less than you (you hyperactive nut), but enough to back up what I'm saying.

will check over those games when i get time.

Please do. Your arguments against OMG will seem a lot worse afterwards.

[Battle Mage]

Actually, you know what, lynching a townie is a great result for us today. It saves our power roles from claiming, and it means the cultist is completely in the dark tonite.

Also, and more importantly - If i wasnt to die, any cultist with an IQ >50 would be able to see that i was obviously a townie given my earlier give away about not being scum, and would recruit me tonight.

So much right now is confusing as heck because people cant see for sure that I am pro-town. Some people are having a lot of trouble understanding the things I have written, and I think things would be a lot clearer if I was dead and proven townie. Then you can all look back on today and actually look at who was pushing me with craplogic (FoO), and who was defending me with no reason (Elias).

This may be unorthodox, but this is not me giving up, this is me truly doing what I feel is best for the village, me surviving today ensures I get recruited tonite and thus makes a town victory very difficult. Gl guys, someone hammer please.

Unvote, Vote: Omg_im_innocent_wtf

Also - Mod please pm me the roles of scum/cultist after I die, my final guess is:

Scum - FoO, Elias
Cultist - Battle Mage

lol. that about wraps it up i think. You are Mafia. (cult recruiter would not risk suicide like this). If you seriously thought the cult would try and recruit you, you are actually crazy. You are so obviously scum, its untrue, and i think the bussing implicates ur buddy as Elias.

Confirm Vote

BM

[Elias_the_thief]

Dude...if he's scum, its completely WIFOM where he put his suspicions...

[Battle Mage]

Dude...if he's scum, its completely WIFOM where he put his suspicions...

WIFOM or not, its what we do in Mafia. when scum dies, we use the info in order to draw conclusions about their buddies.

BM

[Pink Puppy]

Why am I scum?

Check out my post 374, and my comments about the whole random bandwagonning thing of yours. I think that you originally supported random bandwagonning, but are not trying to say you support it but didn't do it. Backtracking. Flip Flopping. You're trying to have it both ways.

But while you are asking me, I may as well do a more detailed write-up of the ways in which I think you are scummy. You're reversed yourself a lot in this game. I don't care about reversing voting so much as I care about reversing reasoning. It's hypocritical and I think you are trying to changing your reasons to fit who you want to vote for -- which is scummy.

Examples:
1)omg's activity level first makes you think he's town, then think he's scum.

Overall, hes still pretty active so for now he seems town to me.

I understand the basic idea, and maybe defensive wasnt the right word. I dunno, you just seem like youre posting a lot more than you need to, almost like an overcompensation. I cant nail it down.

BM points this out and Elias says

NOWHERE did I say that posting frequently was a town tell in general. I said I was getting a town feel from him early on based on his high activity level. That doesnt mean that he can just post a lot the rest of the day and be town, and at a certain point overactivity seems fishy to me.

I guess I'm just wondering where this imaginary line is.

2) Most of the game Elias has been defending omg. Except for a murky period when he decides to vote omg. Let's see some of the statements:

Regardless, I said I'm not suspicious of you.

anyways, i am considering voting OMG, mainly based on his hyperactivity, and his quick response to anything anyone says. I dont know why, but it seems scummy to me. And further,

different from the two times I've played with him previously, in which he was town twice.

The overdefensiveness argument that people are making is BS by the way.

BOLDING IS MINE...

This part is the MOST TELLING to me as Elias has said most of the game how omg always plays like this and don't take him seriously. Yet in the above quote he sees omg's play as different. He's vague about how it's different. But he says it's different. TOTAL OPPOSITE. Feels to me like he got sick of defending omg and decided it would just be easier to lynch him. But he had to reverse himself entirely. And his reasoning is so bad. It's meta, and it's not even substantiated. It's just a vague meta feeling that totally goes against what he said previously and later.

And another quote when Elias says the opposite about omg's play -- saying it's different that previous games.

no, hes changed some. before he got impatient and tired of town really quickly, and basically just swore at people (this was as town).

3) A bit more on the random wagonning debate:
re:LLL

Its called a random wagon in order to create discussion.

By the way, bandwagons are good. I'll agree that the one on OMG is baseless, and a little too large for my liking right now.

Why does he have a problem with the omg wagon being "baseless" when he already said how he likes the idea of random wagons (which are baseless)?

4) Elias piles on and votes GS and then ask others for their reasons for voting GS.

Agree with the above post, but I believe GS would be better suited with a vote: GS.

Reyo and Friend of Old, why are you voting for GS (I know you didnt actually vote yet reyo)?

Elias votes GS because he agrees with somebody else's reasons (no original thinking here). Then he asks people for their reasons. Which is usually something you do when you don't understand the reasoning. And if you're voting the guy, you should know why he's scummy.

[Elias_the_thief]

Yes, but not when they are fully knowledgable that they are going to die when they give that info. Info about what scum do on wagons and who they implicate BEFORE they resign their alignment as being given away is useful, as they need to preserve those opinions later on to continue their strategies. Info given by OMG in this situation when he's resigned to his lynch is just as WIFOM as an NK and basically useless. Just saying.

[Elias_the_thief]

Why am I scum?

Check out my post 374, and my comments about the whole random bandwagonning thing of yours. I think that you originally supported random bandwagonning, but are not trying to say you support it but didn't do it. Backtracking. Flip Flopping. You're trying to have it both ways.

Dude, I'm "flipflopping" on an issue of what I called something. A random wagon IS a wagon for a really small reason to start discussion. Its ridiculous to call it "for a really small reason wagon". Its a random wagon, like a random vote is a random vote, even though it may not be completely random. Believe it or not, backtracking is only a scumtell if its on something that actually matters. There is no relevance to this point. Simply put, how is this beneficial to scum?

1)omg's activity level first makes you think he's town, then think he's scum. I guess I'm just wondering where this imaginary line is.

The imaginary line is created by the problem I'm having with thinking OMG is scum after having seen him in two games acting like this before.

This part is the MOST TELLING to me as Elias has said most of the game how omg always plays like this and don't take him seriously. Yet in the above quote he sees omg's play as different. He's vague about how it's different. But he says it's different. TOTAL OPPOSITE. Feels to me like he got sick of defending omg and decided it would just be easier to lynch him. But he had to reverse himself entirely. And his reasoning is so bad. It's meta, and it's not even substantiated. It's just a vague meta feeling that totally goes against what he said previously and later.

I'm wishy washy on OMG because I've played with before which explains his behavior, but its hard to dismiss it. And his play HAS been different, though only during certain periods. He's fallen back into it lately (being condescending and such).

And another quote when Elias says the opposite about omg's play -- saying it's different that previous games.

no, hes changed some. before he got impatient and tired of town really quickly, and basically just swore at people (this was as town).

This is what he's doing now, getting impatient at people. Thus I'm defending him again.

Why does he have a problem with the omg wagon being "baseless" when he already said how he likes the idea of random wagons (which are baseless)?

First, random wagons are not actually random. Its just what theyre called. Second, I had a problem with it because it was nearing lynch, as I said in my post (gettiing pretty large were my exact words).

4) Elias piles on and votes GS and then ask others for their reasons for voting GS.
Then he asks people for their reasons. Which is usually something you do when you don't understand the reasoning. And if you're voting the guy, you should know why he's scummy.

I gave my reasons as the ones that were listed in the post above mine. The two players I asked literally didnt even do that much. I was completely in the right to ask their reasons.

[XReyoX]

4) Elias piles on and votes GS and then ask others for their reasons for voting GS.

Agree with the above post, but I believe GS would be better suited with a vote: GS.

Reyo and Friend of Old, why are you voting for GS (I know you didnt actually vote yet reyo)?

Elias votes GS because he agrees with somebody else's reasons (no original thinking here). Then he asks people for their reasons. Which is usually something you do when you don't understand the reasoning. And if you're voting the guy, you should know why he's scummy.

I gave my reasons as the ones that were listed in the post above mine. The two players I asked literally didnt even do that much. I was completely in the right to ask their reasons.

I was the one who made that post above yours.

[Elias_the_thief]

ok then, that was stupid. i was in the right to ask FoO, who's given reason was "to go with the flow"

[Blazerunner]

Well, I will later make a more detailed post, Im kinda busy right now. I just want to explain something that is being widely misunderstood.

The arguments for suspecting Elias and OMG are not WIFOM. What is WIFOM is my argument for thinking that tehy BOTH arent scum together. It is WIFOM but IMO it is not a complete nulltell. If Elias did what he did (say at his very first post he knew OMG) just in hope people would think "he is not related to OMG", to avoid a link with OMG, when he didnt need to do it and he would already not be linked, but just to be unpredictable, it might have been a strategy, but if he was, it developed miserably. Now everybody think he is scum with OMG.

Its hard to explain, but it really doesnt matter. Even though I think they BOTH arent scum, if we suspect both, what we should do is the same as if I thogu both of them were guilty: lynch one, investigate/ put pressure on the other

[Elias_the_thief]

post 387 is in response to BMs points about the wifom nature of OMGs suspiciouns.

[Pink Puppy]

Just want to point out that OMG and Elias can still both be scum even if they are not scum together. One can be mafia and the other cultist. Problem solved!

Is omg going to unvote himself?

[Xtoxm]

I think OMG is deft town after that...Ok so perhaps self voting is not a completely pro-town thing to do, that doesn't make him scum.

[omg_im_innocent_wtf]

im timewarping here.

I'm sure OMG still thinks I am retarded. But I think that he should reevaluate his play style if his behavior always gets him lynched as town. He seems to think he is always right and anyone who disagrees with him is retarded. Nobody is always right. And I don't think anyone on this site is retarded, or even of below-average intelligence.

I never really thought you were retarded. It just annoys me when I am doing all I can to be patient and nice and I still receive personal attacks from yourself and Oman.

You attacked me, so I (partially because of how drunk I was) attacked you back. You apologised and withdrew your comment, and Im withdrawing mine. Lets move on.

[omg_im_innocent_wtf]

rofl @ the idea of me and elias being scum together.

man that would have been fun.

battle mage - do you or do you not understand what an analogy is? you made it clear repeatedly in your earlier post that you didnt understand the language i was using, and thats fair enough, i should have been clearer. the misunderstandings are basically both our faults, and like i said i will not use such complex language again (i am used to playing with ppl that speak similarly to myself).

please reread post 339 and nothing else. explain to me which of my actions there is scummy. anything that isnt in post 339 YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD. i cant make this clearer for you. im not going to waste everyones time spending 3 pages explaining each little thing. im sorry for writing in complex language earlier and i will not write in such language again.

please address post 339 and then explain your vote.

lol im not an idiot. I know what an analogy is. I just dont understand how you think that your suicidal strategies can be excused by using the 'a' word. Give me some context to work from please.

BM

Ok. Then clearly you just chose to skim my earlier posts before commenting on them, in particular post 50 in which I bring up a hypothetical situation to add to an earlier argument and you somehow infer from it that i am 'not accepting the possibility of being cultist'.

I assumed that it was because you didnt understand the terms, but its obviously because you simply skimmed my posts when making that long post. Please reread post 50 and others, in the context of the dialogue that was taking place at the time.

[omg_im_innocent_wtf]

Guys, if enough people really want to then I can unvote myself, but consider this:

Cultist WILL recruit me tonight if I remain alive. This means that if I am alive tomorrow I will need to be lynched then. Honestly if you still consider there to be a chance that I am mafia you are simply mistaken, and in a tiny minority. There is no way I could have planned that earlier angleshoot and the cultist knows it. To any impartial party reading this game there are only two possible roles I could be doing this as: Townie + Cultist. Im assuming the cultist at least knows this by now.

My death will clear up a LOT of confusion from today.

Most importantly: NO POWER ROLES have had to reveal. That is pretty crucial in this game.

At the start of the day when i was analysing this game i really thought that killing a townie with noone claimed would be a great result for the town, and I stand by that now. Things could go a lot worse than me dying here, and my detractors will come out in force tomorrow.

[omg_im_innocent_wtf]

Just want to point out that OMG and Elias can still both be scum even if they are not scum together. One can be mafia and the other cultist. Problem solved!

Is omg going to unvote himself?

My vote is on the person whose death I believe will bring most benefit to the town given the situation.

Feel free to dispute post 397 if you believe otherwise.

[omg_im_innocent_wtf]

Also, this post is like the exact opposite of correct:

lol. that about wraps it up i think. You are Mafia. (cult recruiter would not risk suicide like this). If you seriously thought the cult would try and recruit you, you are actually crazy. You are so obviously scum, its untrue, and i think the bussing implicates ur buddy as Elias.

to a logical player, i am never mafia here. if you honestly believe that i could be then you either are mafia yourself or have ridiculous blinders.

to a logical player, i would ALWAYS fake suicide here as cultist in an attempt to clear myself. it is for THIS reason that i must be lynched..

to a cultist, i am obviously not mafia and obviously not a power role to make this play, thus i am a guaranteed recruit at night.

this is just fact. im sorry but it is. it is undebatable to any logical person that has actually read this game thoroughly.

To every logical person except myself, I am either townie and cultist tomorrow (after being recruited at night), or cultist today fpsing. thus i must be lynched.