Mini 568 - Nubigena (Game over!)

[Y]

Thanks.

I made a quick reading already, and I believe some bad actions were made by more than one player.
Now that I have a role, I'll make a deeper re-read and point exactly what are the things I don't like.

In the meantime,

FoS almost all players

(That's a joke, although it isn't far from the truth.

[Y]

So these are my thought after the second, deeper, reading:
While reading the whole game, I noticed two players who did various weird things each.
I'll start with the most obvious - Mafiaplayer.
1. Claiming in your first post? The first one in the game? WTF?!
2. To which end did he do so? T get

everybody

to claim. That's stupid. But there's more! He did it so we can kill all power roles... WTF?!
3. Once you do some stupid moved, you get questioned. Ignoring the questions is the worst thing. Do you have any problem answering them? Is there any info you don't want to share with us?

Have you not learned from last game? I act stupid, I wind up getting lynched, townies lose game. Can't you folks learn?

"I'm always a bad player, but if you lynch me, you lose".
Defending yourself with a meta-game excuse, using emotion instead of logic, playing in a way you know will get you lynched, and then you have the nerves to tell us we're the ones that lose the game for the town. Are you kidding me?

The second player is Sammich.
1. He used a dice for the random vote (Which has its flaws), but he did it outside the game. And he wound up voting himself. WTF?
2. Mafiaplayer claimed on P1 (Post 5). After four posts, he vouches for him in his fifth (Post 54). What took you so long? Why did you do it in the first place? Assuming you're town (Which is just to prove a point. I'm not saying you're town), what makes you, as vanilla, able to vouch for a player?
3. In the same post, your words were: "I guess I can vouch for him because I just got called a townie in my role pm". Here's a quote from the first post, the one on which the mod posted the Townie's role PM:

As a

Townsperson

you have no special abilities besides your wits and your vote. Use them well.

If the PM says Townsperson, why did you get one saying you're a townie?

I want the questions answered. Ignoring them won't help you.

[Y]

Mafiaplayer told us why (A stupid reason, but he did).

I want to know why Sammich did so too.

[Y]

The first question isn't really a question, you can blame that on faulty HTML code.

Dice voting isn't good. Doesn't matter how you do it. The fact that once it didn't work on the forum, you did it in real life is weird. Actually getting yourself voted, is even weirder.
You could've used BBCode for the dice, by the way (Or turn on HTML).

The second, jeruubbal's post about Mafiaplayer's rolename was on the 3rd, mine was 2 days afterwards, I wasn't on the fourth, why are you indicating a day's lack of reply is so long?

jerubbaal asked his question in post 25. You posted #31 and #43 before claiming in post #54. I don't care if it took you an hour or a month, I want to know why you ignored it once, ignored it twice, and then, on the third post, you decided to do it without any one asking you to do so. A townie knows no one. How can you vouch for some one you don't know? Can I claim vanilla and you'll vouch for me?
And if you want to know how anti-town you were:

What's your rolename again? Be specific. (and nobody feed him answers)

That includes you.

Third, I don't know, I shortened it, use that as a tell as you want, I deleted my PMs 3 days ago.

The whole reason jerubbaal asked for the name was to make sure he was telling the truth, by making sure he's not making it up. You fell to the trap.
Erasing your PM isn't an excuse. There's a copy of the vanilla role PM in the mod's post.

@ Mafiaplayer: I don't ignore things. "Why did you vote an NPC?" and "Why should we LAP?" were never answered. Besides that, "Why did you answer the question about your role name?" would be a stupid question. I try not to ask stupid questions.
I don't know about you, but my experience tells me that helping other players defend themselves helps scum, while attacking players helps town. I believe most of us will agree that I'm a better player, so I'll stick my own methods for now.
You need a reinforcement? You did good with the claim. Good Boy. Happy?

@ Near: We're all happy you're here, but could you add some of your own thoughts? It's your second post, and the second time you just vote some one due to some other player's reasons.

[Y]

Can we have a vote count?

[Y]

I didn't vote Mafiaplayer. Is it because the one I replaced did?

Anyway, I have no one I'd like to vote yet (Or I would have done so myself), so

Unvote

.

[Y]

Based on a whiff of something, I'm working on a theory of a Near/Y scumteam.

I'd like to hear it.

@ Sammich: I still want to know how do you know Mafiaplayer's real role.
I have a theory about that claim, but I want you to answer first.

@ Mafiaplayer: While reading back I noticed this:

For instance, Y ignored the post where I realized the question and got the name right.

I know I commented on this already, but I missed the fact that I did acknowledge your answer in the post previous to this one (This is #70, mine was #69). This was a reason for you to put a vote. Start paying attention.

[Y]

At first I just was overwhelmed by the action (last time I had a night start I was replaced, and it didn't go to well), I felt that there were probably better scumhunting targets than Mafiaplayer and I still think that. I don't like tunnel vision.

So it appears you won't answer it...

[Y]

@ Sammich: My question was "How do you know Mafiaplayer's role?". I didn't see an answer.

It appears like you're more clueless than scummy at the moment, so I'll leave it as is for one. It doesn't mean I won't remember it.

I'll try to re-read (Again) and see if I missed something.

[Y]

EBWOAP:
It should be "I'll leave it as is for

now

".

[Y]

1)I was the first post and I claimed.
2)The less power roles there are, the higher chance a claimed Power Role is Mafia.
3)It would be nice to see another confirmed Vanilla Townie, dead or not.
4)Not all powers- All people who CLAIM power. Some will be power, but most will be Mafia.
5)Y. They think I'm scummy, so they're scummy.
6)Sammich-Really smart play. X-Rey-Ox-scummy.

Wow...
1. That doesn't answer the question. You claimed, so what? Why would people do so too?
2. If there are no power-roles, mafia won't claim them either, but we'll have no one to extract that info.
3. Another? You think you are confirmed? How does it helps the town to have a dead confirmed townie on D1? And the one of your choice is some one who townies will lynch as well as scum, so no good info there.
4. What makes you think they'll actually claim power-roles, when they know they'll get lynched?
5. I'm just one person. "OMGUS" would be easier to write.
6. Sammich helped you, XReyoX attacked you. Those really aren't good reasons.

Is there a nomination for "Worst player EVER"?

[Y]

Lynching MP can be good, because having him at endgame will be bad.

I'm still trying to get a feeling for everybody else. I have a candidate or two as scum, but not some one I'll lynch at the moment.

[Y]

I was the one pointing the dice vote and the lack of that information that kind of vote gives us is my main reason.

@ Lowell: What? The post you refer to as coaching was supposed to make him talk. I don't know if I'm the cause, but he's talking. I got what I wanted.

@ Near:

i re-read the posts already and i get some hunches but i have no good suspect i can back up with logic. give me some more time.

Yet you've already voted at least three different people.

gorckat, replacing into my game again, with destructor... Interesting.

[Y]

This game goes F-A-S-T...

I believe the dice thing isn't of much interest (Other than the fact that I believe dice-random-voting isn't good).

XReyoX - You have at least one mistake: I "was" Fat Tony at the time.

[Y]

I have some thoughts about Near's accusations:
1. Joke = Random vote. I don't think he meant that the procedure he wrote was a joke. You're straw-manning.
2. As been pointed before me, you give priority to a somewhat irrelevant action, while ignoring completely one which is much more relevant.
3. You keep using the same argument, blowing it out of proportion.
4. XReyoX asked you what "test" was it that Sammich passed, but you decided to just say he's right by agreeing with you that there was a "test".

I think Sammich had nothing to gain with his dice roll and I'm sorry I even brought it up in the first place. This whole discussion leads nowhere and it's halting our progression.

Since I think Near is confusing the town and does whatever he can just to get some one lynched, I'll

Vote Near

.

Mod:

Can we have a vote count?

[Y]

I have some thoughts about Near's accusations:
1. Joke = Random vote. I don't think he meant that the procedure he wrote was a joke. You're straw-manning.

I am not exactly sure what you mean here. Are you saying that you think his procedure was a joke? No, that's not what he said. Re-read his posts that he wrote after and tell me you think he's joking.

What I'm saying is that Sammich said "Fine it was a joke vote" meaning "Fine, it was a random vote". I believe so because he referred to all the other random votes as joke votes too.

2. As been pointed before me, you give priority to a somewhat irrelevant action, while ignoring completely one which is much more relevant.

This is your opinion. I have something I want to say once Sammich responds to my question.

Read the whole sentence please. I'm not the only one who thinks so.

3. You keep using the same argument, blowing it out of proportion.

I feel that this is an important piece of information, and I find Sammich very suspicious because of it.

Since you believe it's so important, could you please tell me what advantage will he gain that merits such a procedure just to self vote? What gives him more advantage this way than if he would have just said that he votes himself, without the dice?

4. XReyoX asked you what "test" was it that Sammich passed, but you decided to just say he's right by agreeing with you that there was a "test".

Completely wrong. Once Sammich answers my question and I present my view, I think you will believe me. That is, you might still say my test was not very useful depending on how Sammich answers, but I am confident that townies will find my explanation genuine.

Your not answering my point.
After XReyoX wrote this:

Near:
Test?

You used it as if XReyoX agreed with you that it's a test. You misrepresented his words as if he was supporting you, while he was actually questioning you.

I think Sammich had nothing to gain with his dice roll and I'm sorry I even brought it up in the first place. This whole discussion leads nowhere and it's halting our progression.

What's halting our "progression" is Sammich not answering my simple question: Who he thinks are scums and why. After that, I promise I will make no more than 3 posts regarding this dice incident if you guys want me to stop. This is what I ask, and I think it's fair.

Most of the discussion since page 7 is about this whole "dice roll" thing. It added nothing and I can't see it adding anything new. That's why I believe you're the one that's keeping us from progressing.

Since I think Near is confusing the town and does whatever he can just to get some one lynched, I'll Vote Near.

Mod:

Can we have a vote count?

Do not lynch me until I have the chance to respond to Sammich's answer to my question.

You're at L-2. We're not lynching you yet, but you're not giving me any good reason not to do so.

[Y]

Here's a question for you Y and the others. If you knew for certain that Sammich lied and made up the dice roll incident, would you think he's a scum? How likely?

No, I wouldn't. It's something so irrelevant, and I believe that doing the actual roll would be much easier than inventing the whole story.

Accusing him for making that up is stupid if you ask me.

Ok here's another question for the field: Do you think Sammich rolled the dice in real life?

Yes. As I said: making that story up is harder than actually doing what he claims he did, and lying about it has no real purpose.

I'll say it again: I believe this whole "dice" thing is irrelevant, the accusation is stupid, and we're all wasting our time.

Any other question?

[Y]

I believe Near saw a growing wagon and decided to jump in, using the most recent accusation. That accusation can't be proven neither right nor wrong, since our knowledge of it depends on Sammich's answer. No matter how questionable this roll was, as long as he says it happened, arguing with him is futile. There's nothing we can say that can prove otherwise. That's why I think the whole argument is pointless.
So why is Near so obsessed with it? Because he's afraid to say he has no real point. If he (Near) backs up now, he'll be questioned for the matter being unfinished, so he keeps going.

What is Sammich's actual current position? That he was joking, that he really rolled the dice, that he invented the whole thing to lighten the thread up? - he seems to have said all these things at one time or another

That's not exactly true. At least one of this points (Sammich saying he invented the whole thing) is Near's saying, not Sammich's.

Mod:

Can you prod the non-active people? We haven't heard from Lowell in a while, and I think he's not the only one.

[Y]

I still feel like Near is staying on that wagon just because he thinks leaving it wouldn't worse than staying on it without a really good reason.

[Y]

EBWOP:
"Wouldn't" should be "would be".

[Y]

I'd prefer not to comment on this at the moment, unless you all really want to hear it. I believe it might hurt the town if not done at the right timing.

[Y]

I'm having second thoughts about Y. He's no longer atop my scum list.

Thanks. I'm so relieved now.
Could you please give us some insight about who is at the top of your list and why?

[Y]

I haven't played with a jester either, but it seems like it wouldn't be balanced. It's too easy to get lynched with such a low lynching threshold.

I also thought about MP as jester, so Sammich's logic isn't so far off as you're trying to make it look like.

[Y]

Just once I'd like to be in game in which everyone doesn't immediately cry "jester"

That's the first time I hear it.

You've been completely unhelpful since the game began. Are you planning on adding some content anytime soon?

[Y]

Mod:

What happens at deadline? An auto no-lynch, or a lynch by half a majority?

[Y]

I said it already, but I'll say it again: Near is going on circles. We've been hearing from him for pages and pages, and we're in the same place we were in the beginning - With almost nothing. He's dragging the game and the deadline is slowly approaching.

[Y]

Well, I think that by keeping us from progressing, Near does exactly what scum needs: Less info for the town and a possible no-lynch. All the players are concentrating in one player, while it's almost certain that we have more than one player playing against us. Near is narrowing all the town's investigation. Not only that we're probably missing a lot of info we could gather by looking at other players, but the only lead we are following gives us very little.
In the meanwhile, other players just let themselves lurk, either truly (MP, for example) or in plain sight (I'm looking at you, Lowell).

Since I believe we've accomplished almost nothing for the last seven pages or so, and since Near is the main player pushing us in that direction, I feel confident enough in lynching him.

[Y]

Hi Mizzy. Long time no see...

Near, not only I think your arguments lead us nowhere, but I think the way you did it is anti-town. Why, you might ask, so here it is:
For pages over pages I told you, and I believe others backed me up, that the whole investigation is useless and slows the town down. You insisted it's very important and you can't leave it as is. Now, so much time and space later, the conclusion is that there's nothing useful.
Why were you insisting on running an investigation that you were told leads nowhere? You're saying that it's Sammich's fault for not answering, but if so, how did so many pages were filled with this, so called "investigation", if no one was answering? You were writing big posts and very frequently, but we have almost nothing. Why did you let your interrogation block all the other leads we had, or tried to follow? There were no answers, it's not like following something else would make us miss something.

You were told to stop slowing the town down, you insisted on it nevertheless, and now, when there are no results and we're empty handed, you're not assuming responsibility.

If you can answer my accusations, please do. If you're going to keep saying you were fine, and it's Sammich's fault, please keep it to yourself.

[Y]

I suspect Y above everyone else (other than Sammich). Call it OMGUS if you want. But he's trying to over-play the fact that my investigation produced no result so far. And he keeps downplaying the possibility of Sammich being the scum even when faced with evidence that 1) He lied about the dice 2) He keeps ignoring people's question 3) He has disappeared, period.

1. There is no evidence. If there is, I want to see it.
2. This is probably because of #3.
3. Disappearing has nothing to do with scum, but with people.

I was asked why don't I try other things than persecuting Sammich. I actually do.
1. I think Near is a very good option for a lynch.
2. I've commented about Lowell's inactivity more than once.

I have other theories, but I'd like to know Near's alignment first.

[Y]

There is no evidence? So you still think Sammich actually rolled the dice? I summarized my reasons for doubting Sammich in post 328 and 330. If you disagree with me, please explain why.

I'm not sure that he rolled the dice, but I see nothing to

prove

otherwise. You can say it's not probable, you can say you don't think it's true, but you can't say you have proof. Proof means you have evidence that shows that the claim in question is a lie. You don't have that. You have reasons to not believe it's true, but you have proof.

You're presenting your subjective ideas as facts to make your case stronger. Your case isn't strong enough and by claiming it is, you're misleading the town.

I'm saying something does not exist, so I have to show nothing to you. You're the one saying you have proof, so I'd like you to show it to me (I want a quote). You've been evading me. I want you to show me what proof you've got.

Y, your strongest argument for lynching me is that I have been leading an investigation that lead no where. You posit that I am a scum trying to confuse town. You qualified my investigation from the start as useless, and still maintain that there is no evidence that Sammich lied.

I want you to respond to actual content of my investigation so far. That is, do you think it's possible that he remembered 11 names? Without writing down the names? All of which happened in 2 minutes? After 10 days later? Do you deny the similarities between his "list" and the order of people who posted here?

You do know you're contradicting yourself, right?
If I had to choose 11 names, I'd probably wouldn't remember the order, not after ten days, but after an hour so. What I would definitely remember, is the way I chose that order, meaning I would be able to recreate the list even a month later. The similarities between the list and the order is exactly that - A way to decide the order.

Your argument:
1. Sammich couldn't remember the list.
2. Sammich mysteriously claims a list very similar to the posters order.

My thought:
Sammich made the list based on the posters order, therefore he could remember it.

You're misrepresenting things to support your case. Cases should relay on facts, or at least good assumptions. Fact's shouldn't be fabricated to support theories.

You're straw-manning and misrepresenting facts. When pointed, you say those facts are true with no real proof.
I

confirm vote Near

. If it was for me, you'd be lynched already.

XReyoX, you're not agreeing with me and I posted a significant amount of content. Was there noting to point out about my posts?

[Y]

I meant which posts would you like me to comment on first.

I don't know. It just seemed odd that you disagree with me (You did openly disagreed with me), but you have nothing to say about it in your game analysis.

#279, Y
“I believe Near saw a growing wagon and decided to jump in, using the most recent accusation.”
Sammich at that time when Near voted for him, has only got 1 vote. While MP had 3, phantom had 1 and Y had 1. Do you consider that Sammich as a growing wagon when I lay it out clearly?

Yes, I do. At the time I, and other people, were starting to put pressure on Sammich. While we weren't voting (I wasn't), the notion of a building case was there. Near just jumped early on the train, so he could later claim he was there from the beginning, and didn't join only after it was a real wagon.

I get the feeling that Near is clinging to a weak case, and he's really afraid to let it go.
Townies want to lynch scum, so they'll attack people based on their thoughts, while scum try to get people lynched and are afraid that they might do something that'll make them look scummy.

I know it doesn't look like much, and that it's too hard for me to explain exactly what it is, but there's the feeling of a player trying to do exactly what he thinks would be expected from him. That's not a town play.

If you're meta-gaming, I'd like you to read Vegetable Mafia (gorckat doesn't have to, for obvious reasons). Please look at the D1 lynch and try to understand what kind of case I'm pushing.

[Y]

I’m hoping you guys can give a thought about these, although I agree that Near is also a good lynch for today in terms of the info that he’s going to give us if his role is revealed. Since our vig is dead and I doubt there would be another one, I think, at the very least, the cop should consider investigating sammich aka his replacement Niv.

Guiding a power-role. Noted.

[Y]

Since I don't believe in Near's case, I don't have a lot of reasons to vote Niv (Sammich). Since I think Near is scum, I have a reason not to.
It's not illogical that people attacking Near won't vote Niv.

I'd like to hear from Niv. As shown using meta, Sammich isn't a good player. He might have just got into a mess by playing really bad.

[Y]

Well... I believe Near was the main issue of the day and almost everybody had something to do with him, therefore killing him would give the town a lot of info about most people.
Since I believe him to be scum, I really believe it to be the best action we can make at the moment.

[Y]

It is very interesting that once some one noticed there's no pressure on Niv, his wagon started to grow. It seems like people don't want to look illogical.
What bugs me even more is that Sammich was obviously a bad player. The kind of player which gets himself killed due to bad play. Now that Niv's here, we should try and see what he has to say. Trying to shut up a player before he can get himself out of the hole his bad predecessor left him, is scummy.

I think that any one willing to lynch Niv before hearing his thoughts is anti-town.

FoS jerubbaal and Lowell

for that. The third player voting Niv is Near, which I see as the best lynch at the moment.

[Y]

In the meanwhile, Y's channel vision of wanting to lynch me hasn't changed. Y, who's the second person you want to lynch?

I'm pushing one lynch, but I'm not tunnel visioned. I see Lowell as a good option, for not giving enough reasons nor explanations of his actions.
XReyoX seems to write a lot without drawing too much attention, so it seems somewhat weird (I know, "too townie" argument. Spare me). He was guiding a power role and no one blinked.
The other players aren't contributing too much.

About Niv\Sammich, I believe Sammich did some bad-play-mistakes. Not something worth of a vote until Niv starts talking.

[Y]

Wow this is the lamest, most opportunistic response ever. Was I not the 4th vote? Your need to defend Niv is noted.

You were the third. Yes, I'm defending Niv since he didn't actually play in this game yet.
Opportunistic? I mentioned the way I dislike your posts already.

[Y]

While I do understand you don't like rereading your posts and correct the spelling mistakes, you do have a lot of mistakes which make the posts difficult to read. We'd really appreciated if you'd do it anyway.

Why are you, Niv, voting Near? I'd like to hear your arguments (As opposed to

my

arguments through your keyboard).

[Y]

just got back from bruce springstean ( the boss is amazing).

</jealous>

???

[Y]

They're both votable. But the Imat wagon doesn't seem to be taking off at the moment.

"I don't care who I'm killing, but Near seems easier".

[Y]

Ooba, you replaced in four days ago. What are your thoughts?

[Y]

Wont' be able to post for a couple days. Don't replace me~!

Even when you can you don't really post, so what's the difference?

I completely agree with Mizzy. I think she managed to say what I've been trying to in a much better way than me.

[Y]

If you do not buy the case , I (XreyoX) can be said to have done the same thing in Post 440. Why vote Near over me?

Near seems to be sticking harder to a non-existing case. I did, however, express a suspicion of XReyoX, and I still think you might be scum. Not only for the above statement, but for trying to guide power-roles too.
I think Near is scum, but I'm not giving you a clear yet.

The fact that Y is trying hard to get on any bandwagon that would help Sammich's case reinforces our theory that Sammich is indeed a scum.

What? IIRC, you are, and were, the only player I voted this game. I do have good reasons for my vote. How many people did you vote?
What are you basing that assumption on? Have I been proven scum? I'm town, and you have no real way of knowing my alignment. This accusation has no real content and it just another one in a row of half truths and misrepresentation.

I am a

gunsmith

I don't care if some one counter-claims or not. I don't believe you. I think you chose a role that's not very popular, knowing it's not probable that any one would get it and could counter. The way you slipped shows how you tried to lie. This is a fact - You made a mistake - As opposed to you, I don't have to invent things to make you look like scum.
If it was up to me, you'd be lynched already.

I'll

Confirm Vote Near

. Again. I believe he's scum and I see no better target for today's lynch. He just screams SCUM.

[Y]

I actually get results "unloaded" and "loaded". It's just that "unloaded" means no gun. Maybe I should have said that as a gunsmith, I get to check out if someone has a gun instead.

This mistake (The one it refers to). Claiming to have a result, and when some one points out it should be different, Near suddenly changes his version. I believe he read it on the wiki or something and didn't really understood what it means.

[Y]

How did I change my "version"? Answer me this.

"The gun is unloaded, oh, wait, there is no gun, so I mean unloaded as 'has no gun'. That's what I meant in the first place". That change in version.

Lowell, your amazingly contributive this game. Could you please, at least once, actually share with us your thoughts and not only those thought's conclusions?

I belive the claim. I belived near was pro town on my read too .

"I'll confirm you for confirming me". I'd really expect scum to do this.

Mizzy, English isn't my first language too. So? It's apparent that the way he expressed himself comes from a misunderstanding of the role, not bad English.

[Y]

I can play this game almost as well in Spanish, and you really don't want to try playing with me in Hebrew (Which

is

my first language).

[Y]

I defended Sammich/Niv because I thought he might be the cop. Now that he claimed vanilla in a near lynch situation, I'll have to re-read him. Besides that, I still think you, Near, are scum.

[Y]

Night start, vouching for a townie, claiming as some one who's not really vanilla. Most things that go against him, would fit perfectly if he was a cop. Since I noticed he isn't a good player, I figured out that he might have slipped when he vouched for MP (After investigating him N0). I also pointed out several times that I have a theory about him, but I didn't want to help him if he's not the real cop, and I didn't want scum to know he might be the cop (Or even worse, get the real cop to counter-claim).

Why I think Near is scum? He misrepresents a lot of facts, distorts people's words, puts a lot of pressure in unneeded places, wastes time, confuses the town, uses bad logic, vote hopping and so on...
He mentioned in this game at least two roles I have never heard of, or was mostly unfamiliar with. He sticks to irrelevant points, even after repeatedly being told they are irrelevant, and later accuses other people for the lack of progression. He uses uncommon theories and terms, which are hard to counter or prove.
As a whole, I get a really bad filling about him. It seems to me like he's doing a lot of things, but making no actual progress. As if he wishes to be heard, appearing to be very active, but actually does nothing.

[Y]

When I referred to the 'slip' and different versions, I meant exactly what Incognito explained.

I'm not saying we should lynch him because of it. I'm saying we should lynch him. Period. This is just another little thing. I also don't believe his claim.

Near claims Gunsmith (Which is a role I never heard of before). Probably no one will have it, so no counter claim on that, or the cop counter-claims and gets outed. This claim is a win-win situation if Near is scum.

[Y]

With Niv's claim (And him not counter-claiming cop), I can go back on attacking him (I was going to put pressure on Sammich before I thought he might be cop).

I am comfortable with a Niv lynch, but I still believe Near is scum. Ooba too, but on a lesser extent.

[Y]

Ripley, I'd like you to read Newbie 546.
I wasn't on any theory accusing Sammich to be scum, since I thought he's a power-role, or will expose one if I say anything.

You believe that Near as scum would fake an innocent result on a scum buddy? I think that would be a wildly reckless move so early in the game.

Therefore he's not scum. So it's a good move to do as scum, but reckless, so it isn't... WIFOM.

I believe any one of them could be scum. While Niv strikes me as a possible scum, Near strikes me as a sure scum. Yes, I do think they could be scum together (See the way I pressured Capricious on Newbie 546, again).

The top 2 people I would vote for are Ooba and Y, in that order (ooba for his opportunistic vote and lack of decent response to my reasoning why his and his predecessor's vote was stupid and Y because I don't like how sure he is about Near at this time and how adamant he is for a lynch of a power-claimed player.)

Please read D1 in Mini 534 (Vegetable Mafia).

[Y]

gorckat, you quoted post 83. That's before I thought he might be a cop (When I was still attacking him). I thought about the cop thing while writing 104 (You can see the change of attitude towards him).

The seccond quote refers to the posts following that, especially 312.

[Y]

So what was the "theory about that claim" you refer to in Post 83, if you hadn't at that time thought of the cop theory?

Sammich is scum vouching for MP. MP gets lynched as town and Sammich gets townie-points.

[Y]

He (Sammich) then failed to really answer my question, and when I was going to attack him harder (104), I wrote the sentence "You wouldn't know any one's alignments, unless you're masons (Which you claimed not to be), scum-partners, or you're a cop". At that point I decided that it is an actual possibility and rewrote the whole post. If you'll look at it now, you can see that 104 has a big change and a sudden change in my opinions.

[Y]

Mizzy, Y has been dedicating most of his posts to defend Sammich/Niv this game. As you have seen, even when I claimed gunsmith, his support for Sammich/Niv was unwavering, almost to the point of unreasonableness. Y even said that he thought Sammich was a cop? Makes little sense.

I dedicated most of my posts attacking you, not defending Sammich. You were attacking him, but that's not the reason for me to think you're scum (It's the way you attacked, not the who).

You prove, again, that you will say things the way they suit your plans, no matter what the person you're referring to actually said. You can lynch Niv if you want, I think his lynch could be very valuable whether town or scum, but I think we should get you killed ASAP no matter what Niv's alignment is.

I really don't think I'll be able to post again before deadline, so

Mod:

If it is possible, I'd like to vote for Niv if the deadline strikes and no lynch has been accomplished.

[Y]

I am a gunsmith. I'm untouchable.

Why would you say that? Maybe because you think your claim just got you off the hook? Guess what - The town may believe you for now, but you're scum, and you'll die eventually.

Now die. With your scum partner Niv.

You want me to die? Vote for me. I want you to die and that's what I'm doing.
Or is it easier to just say something than doing it?

You attacked Sammich for being the easiest target. Why don't you really attack me? You think you're not good enough to actually confront me directly?

[Y]

I did try to switch my vote at the end, but the mod wouldn't allow me to do it the way I wanted, and I was at work when the deadline was due.

I wouldn't NK you. Assuming other people believe you, the doc would probably protect you, so trying to guess who's the doc would seem a better choice for scum.

Both your reasons are wrong. Why, actually, didn't you check me?

Why don't you tell us who your "Loaded" is? Why should we wait if we can get a mafioso lynched? It's not like we don't know you claimed gunsmith...
This question is aimed at Near. I'll really thank you all if no one but him answers it.

[Y]

Everybody's here. Near, we're waiting.

[Y]

Near, somehow you're expecting people to do the most unexpected things all the time. All your plans are always based on some improbable situation or reaction. I don't care that you just "half proved" me town. I think you're scum and should be lynched.

[Y]

The biggest problem with your theories, Near, is that you always expect for a specific player to react to a specific thing, while other players ignore it. That's useless.

[Y]

Anyone has any conclusions about Near's scum-play?
The only reason I'm not voting for him ATM is that he might be a really bad townie (And no one claimed a cop-ish like role).

I do see the case about Lowell. I mentioned his lurking more than once.
ooba is another option.

gorckat, you've been here for a while, but I have no real thoughts about you. As if you talk, but not saying anything really important. I don't like it.

[Y]

I'm another option? You believe Near is gunsmith but then doubt me?

The last time I said something about Near was that I don't believe him. The above quote states why I'm not voting him yet (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now, I never said I believe him).

Or they're being smart and breadcrumbing their investigations so they can come out when Near-scum goes down with several confirmed townies at once.

I agree with you on this one. That's why I still think Near is probably lying.

I might have given the impression that I think Near is actually a real power role. I don't. I'm just saying that for now, we can't tell for sure and it could be a risky chance to take.

Lynching me would really be a stupid move for town. I find those who are pushing for my lynch most suspicious, e.g. gorckat. I will check you out next.

How lynching you is stupid?
Why won't you investigate some one who's actually doing scummy things, like Lowell? You keep deciding who's scum and who isn't depending on who wants you lynched and who doesn't. That's being a bad player.

[Y]

You keep confusing words with meaning. When I asked you "Why won't you investigate Lowell?", I didn't mean "I believe you. Please investigate Lowell next", as you seem to understand, but "What is the reason you think gorckat is scummier than Lowell?".

At the moment You're claiming Gunsmith. Some of us don't believe you, therefore your "results" have no real meaning for the town. Once you're dead, we can analyze those results, knowing your alignment. Having actual confirmation for the results we have isn't stupid.

[Y]

I know he's not insane nor paranoid. Maybe naive or have some percentage of insanity. I know that because I am, in fact, town (I know most of you don't know my real alignment and can't be sure, but you'll have to trust me on this one). According to the wiki, sanity isn't used much in minis.

Roleblocking a cop is almost always the better option. Sooner or later he will die, and all his results will be checked against his alignment.
Mizzy, I also don't agree with that theory. Making Near unable to investigate would hurt his credibility even more, making him a good lynch target.

I'm waiting for Near to answer my question, and I'll be direct this time (Because he misses it if I'm not): Near, why to you think gorckat is scummier than Lowell? What makes you dismiss Lowell as a potential scum?
Here's another, better, one: Near, what do you think about all the players and why? Not only who's scum or town, not only the ones you think are scum. Please don't do a "scum" list and then a "town" list. For each player, name, his possible alignment and a reason. That would be much helpful. Thank you.

[Y]

He was acting very weird (Both Summich and his replacement). I do understand whoever voted for him. That said, I still think Near was doing so for the wrong reasons.

[Y]

Sorry, still here. Will post, I promise.

I'm not voting yet, right?

Vote Lowell, FoS Near.

[Y]

Lowell:
509: It's odd for me to suspect some one who's not voting for the one he thinks is scum? That's odd.
551: "Very believable"? It was a slip up. It's so obvious he made some kind of mistake (He actually admits it) and is trying to explain, hoping for it to look as innocent as possible.
576: Read the post. He's weakening the claim.

That wasn't a good post. We can re-read the game by ourselves. I want to know what you think, not for you to prove me you have problems with reading comprehension. Your logic has holes as big as Near's.

I want content, not words.

[Y]

We can't be sure we have a doc. I wouldn't take the risk if it was my life at stake. If there is another investigative role, he might have thought Near would get lynched anyway.

Near, I'm waiting for my list.

[Y]

Did you miss Imat on purpose?

If Near isn't the real investigator, then yes, when the real one dies, or claims, he'll be in trouble. But, and this is a big "but", in the meanwhile he's staying alive, which is better than dying. I wouldn't be surprised if he was trying to lure the real cop out.

[Y]

I'm away until Friday. I may have internet, but I may not. Just warning you.

Good to know we'll have no content from you for a while (Yes, that was sarcasm).

@ gorckat: I thought him to be a cop, not a doc. What do you you think about it now that we know his alignment?

[Y]

Welcome back!

[Y]

Ripley: I didn't want the day to end in a no-lynch, but I was unable to be here when the deadline hit, due to it being very early in the morning and I have no time to spare before I go to work. Why didn't I do it right then? Not because I wanted to keep Near close to the noose (It was apparent that people will unvote after the claim), but because I wanted there to be enough time for anybody who might say something important or counter-claim before the day ends.
Why did I do it with such a strict mod? Because you can't know if you don't try.

gorckat: I didn't want to just ignore that case after I pushed it so hard, but I did use the same post to fall back a bit. You would've noticed it if you didn't, "accidentally", forget to quote the second sentence of the same post:

It appears like you're more clueless than scummy at the moment, so I'll leave it as is for one

(Was supposed to be "now")

. It doesn't mean I won't remember it.

[Y]

I might have phrased it in a suboptimal way, but I was going to attack him really hard in that post. I decided to change my angle midway and rephrased most of the post, but didn't rewrite it completely from scratch.

[Y]

By "Accident" (with the quotation marks) I was saying that it was on purpose.

[Y]

Then why did you omit that part?

[Y]

I never played a game modded by destructor before, so I had no idea how strict he is.
I really think another investigator could claim in that last minute.
About Near, I knew it wasn't probable, but I did hope he'll get lynched (Which would not happen if some one counter-claimed, but my vote wasn't there).
Since Near said he'll self-vote, and I knew other people will be here in time (He was overkilled without the self-vote), I decided to take the chance. You can say whatever you want, but in fact, I was right by assuming a lynch will take place.

gorckat, as I said: I rephrased that post several times while writing it. You can either believe me, or not, but if you want answers, you should ask clear questions.
It seems weird to me that I'm both accused for trying to get Sammich-cop outed, and for defending him at the same time.

[Y]

What?

[Y]

Mizzy, I can assure you that asking me nicely, with or without a vote, you'll get your answers. I see no reason voting for some one that you don't want to lynch.

I think I missed some posts at the end of the last page, I'll re-read it...

[Y]

It was Niv, not Near, who said that. I think that's what Y meant to say.

That's right.

I haven't played a game modded by destructor before either, but it was simply not possible to play through Day 1 of this one and not be aware of his strict voting rules. A huge number of votes were ignored for not observing the rule that you must unvote first. You must have known this.

First of all, I really didn't noticed that. Secondly, as opposed to that situation, there's no rule saying "Asking for future votes to be cast will not be accepted". I saw some mods agreeing to do that, so I asked.

Too late to force a lynch but just in time, if genuine, to helpfully let the scum know they were a power role? Really?

That "Last minute" were actually five hours. That's enough time.
I wasn't completely sure about the Niv lynch, but, like Mizzy, I did prefer not to take the chance of a no-lynch.

I'll tell you the same thing I told gorckat: Believe me if you want, or don't. I have no way to really prove my intentions. I thought that would be the best option at the moment. Do you have any other questions? Because I think there's no point for us to keep going in circles.

[Y]

Lowell/Incognito scum pairing - discuss.

Will post my case in the evening..

I think I will wait for your case before I discuss, thanks very much.

QFT.

[Y]

If your question is: would I vote to lynch him? then the answer is yes.

Do you have a real case behind it? Probably not.
'The answer is yes' seems to be the answer I'd expect from if I asked you to vote whatever other player playing this game.

Mizzy, I've been one of the most active player this game, and the main contributor to the Near case. You're getting more content from me all the time. If you want something specific to come up, ask for it, there's no point waiting until I accidentally talk about it. If there's nothing special you're looking for, try to use these fake accusations on some else. Thank you.

[Y]

Responding to a prod.

(Third, if I'm not mistaken)
I still find gorckat scummy, but after reading Ripley's response to my question,

I'd rather lynch one of the guys who've been

lurking

. Imat or Incognito. I dunno which one yet, I will do a re-read.

Way to go...

[Y]

Wow... That's the sixth replacement in a 12 people game...

I'm not sure about Lowell. As Ripley said, he seems to be careless, no matter the situation

We should really lynch scum today, or tomorrow might be LYLO.

Unvote, Vote ooba.

I don't like way he's playing. XReyoX gave me some bad vibes too.
I think he's a good candidate for the noose, and might give us some information about Near's claim.

[Y]

Wait, so why is ooba a better noose-candidate than you for finding out about Near's claim?

I don't believe Near's claim, so I really have an interest testing him.

Ripley, I had a judgement call to make. I thought the best way of action would be what I did. You think otherwise. You can never assume that other people see it the way you do. In some of the points you're rising I made a different choice than you. Some never came up to me.
I might have made a wrong decision, but that makes me human, not scum.

About ooba: I think Lowell is a waste of time. He seems to be just careless. That's why I unvoted (Although I don't mind if any one wishes to pressure him further).
XReyoX was perfectly town. No real mistakes, nothing to actually point out. I recognise that kind of play from games I played scum. All the right choices, all the right word... Seems too much for me to be completely true. ooba hasn't improved much.

As you and I pointed out, mislynching will probably put us on LYLO. I'm doing my best to prevent that by lynching scum. I really hope that if I'm the one to be lynched, you'll re-read me by tomorrow, because I'm pretty sure I found at least one scum.

[Y]

I don't believe his claim. There are two possibilities:
1. We lynch him to test his claim, and if I'm wrong, we lynched a power role.
2. We lynch some one with a result, and if I was wrong, we still have a power role. Scum already know his real alignment, so we can't really out him or anything.

I vote for whoever I think is the best lynch. Whether my target will be easier to lynch or not, is not something I'm really concerned with. I'm looking for a good lynch, not an easy one.

[Y]

Believe it or not, I find it easier to look like town when I'm scum.

I do understand gorckat's logic (and I actually missed some of it myself), but the reason I'm voting ooba is that I think he'll turn up scum, and therefore we can prove Near is scum. Not vice-versa.
To clarify: I thing ooba is scum, ignoring Nears result.

[Y]

Assuming me and ooba are town and that gorckat is a doc, we're left with four player, three of which are probably scum.

That leaves Ripley, jerubbaal, Incognito and Mizzy. My bet would be Mizzy, Ripley, or both. I need to think about the other two options.

[Y]

Somewhat hasty, aren't you?

I'd go with Ripley, jerubbaal and Incognito.

[Y]

I'm a Townsperson.

[Y]

No, IIRC...

[Y]

We had a vig, so there was a role that can throw the cop off, so a godfather seems to be too much.

By me being town, I believe ooba is too, and gorckat wasn't counter-claimed. Unless we have no doc and gorckat made a bet that paid up (I don't think it's likely), the scum are hiding between the remaining players.

From the player I believe could be scum, the one I suspect the most is Ripley. I don't like the way he always seem to "know better" than everybody else.
He invalidates completely reasonable cases just by saying they can't be true, and dismisses people opinions by saying that other can't think what they claim to think.

Vote Ripley.

[Y]

I'm voting Ripley, IIRC, but I'll

unvote

anyways.
Fixed. - mod

jerubbaal, you're accusing Ripley for the exact thing he just explained: That he doesn't vote so easily. I can understand him, since I'm the same.

Actually if anything it was the Day 1 Ripley that was the anomaly; I’ve rarely been as confident of a D1 lynch as I was about Sammich/Niv. Day 2 was much more like how I usually am. I rarely vote, I’m very cautious, I think aloud, I’m uncertain of my conclusions, all of which is intolerable to the kind of hyperconfident player who always knows they’re right, and that their playstyle is the only acceptable playstyle, and who will with an inevitable predictability demand that I be lynched for being wishy-washy and not naming scum or reaching firm conclusions at the point in the game that they, personally, insist that I should, and I’ve been through all of this so often I’m slouching with boredom just thinking about it.

Loved this part, but it bothers me that you weren't able to accept the same for me.

I probably won't have access for the next four days or so.

[Y]

I was out of the country. I got home 15 mins ago and it's 4:00am, so any good posts will have to wait until after I get a good sleep.

[Y]

Ripley, your post is missing one thing: Our gunsmith may get wrong reads from our power roles (Vig, for example), giving scum an advantage. Giving them an immuned godfather would be unbalanced.

[Y]

That's not completely true. Some people are good enough to appear completely town while being scum.

[Y]

That's not completely true. Some people are good enough to appear completely town while being scum.

... Maybe if I had some experience being scum, that could be said of me, but if one looks at my wiki, one will see that I have

never been scum

.

I don't agree. In my first game as scum I was "the most obviously town".

With the deadline closing in, I'll

Vote Mizzy

.

[Y]

I have my reasons to vote Mizzy, not only that sentence. I said I think she's scum when day started.
She seems like she's here, but we're getting nothing from her.

Mizzy, I'm not saying iffy things because I'm confirmed, I'm confirmed because I got investigated after saying some iffy things. I'm always like that.

[Y]

I've seen Mizzy doing mostly nothing besides trying to counter any attack today.

I know some of you think my behaviour is scummy, but I tend to be more scummy as town than as scum.

[Y]

I said why I vote fo you twice in the last two pages. You may go look.

[Y]

I said why I vote fo you twice in the last two pages. You may go look.

Okay, maybe I should word this differently...less of a

bullshit

reason, please. You know why you aren't seeing my normal stellar performance here, but I am still participating and still giving quite a bit, considering my RL status.

Don't use my lack pf participation as an excuse to vote me when it's happening in every single game I'm in right now. I'm not participating as much as usual due to RL events, not alignment.

I'm not saying that you're not participating, I'm saying that while you write more than some other people, I know only that you think you shouldn't be the lynch for today. Besides that? Who knows...

Your votes go for obvious targets (Like the Niv deadline kill) and you don't really have any impact on the game.

I definitely see no good reason why jerubbaal thinks you're town, and he's my second option as to who is scum. I'm not sure about a third option.

[Y]

That's a lynch, I guess...

[Y]

I actually thought gorckat was scum, but dismissed it. I didn't think we'll have no doc, and he wasn't counter-claimed.

[Y]

While you were in fact town, I'd suggest you think before you try all your tricks. Most of them have a way bigger chance of getting you killed then actually working.