Mini 559 - Cult Mafia again - Game over

[XReyoX]

FoO's LoS is rubbish. Basicly, he could have summarized it into:

Town-People who are active.
Scum-People who post little.

He is not trying to catch scum at tall.

[Battle Mage]

FoO's LoS is rubbish. Basicly, he could have summarized it into:

Town-People who are active.
Scum-People who post little.

You only just noticed that? lol

I dont think FoO is scum ftr. Just his scumdar is worse than mine atm. lol

BM

[Pink Puppy]

Even though his top suspect is dahen, and you already made this big deal about confirming dahen and everybody who thinks dahen is scum must be scum?

[Battle Mage]

Even though his top suspect is dahen, and you already made this big deal about confirming dahen and everybody who thinks dahen is scum must be scum?

FoO clearly isnt going all out to attack Dahen. Im not even sure if hes aware of the recent discussion. You are misrepresenting me here.

BM

[Friend of Old]

Dahen is top of that list because I copied the names down from the main post, I don't feel strongly enough about anyone in particular right now to grade them, it is a general scummy vs. townish LoS with people on one side or the other. If I had a high priority suspects and low grade suspects I would have put in per centages or another type of rading system. So Dahen is not necessarily my top suspect, he just happens to be on top of the player roster.

[quote 'Reyo]FoO's LoS is rubbish. Basicly, he could have summarized it into:

Town-People who are active.
Scum-People who post little.

He is not trying to catch scum at tall. [/quote]

I'll grant you it is not the most detailed and most certainly not the most accurate LoS ever made, but don't you think there is a reason that an active person seems more townish than a lurker? If you were to do an LoS right now, how different would it be, just out of interest?

Okay, I'll admit that I'm not going out of my way to scumhunt right now, but neither are you Reyo, nobody is right now. The closest we've come as of late is saying 'FoO seems a bit scummy, I'm not sure why though', which isn't especially helpful, and most of the rest of D2 has been on par with that. So I'll pose to you a question, who do you propose we put under the spotlight?

[Norinel]

I'm back, but need time to catch up, read what's been posted so far today, etc.

[Pink Puppy]

Glad you're back. I called you out in 537, but knew you were away. Now we can hash it out.

[GhostWriter]

Just got back in from Florida, I'll post soon.

[Norinel]

Okay, we'll start there.

Well, I'm still here!

The thing that sticks in my head about Norinel is how he said

I suppose he is right that his lynch will give us a place to start tomorrow, but let's not forget that even if he does come up townie, each of the rest of us has just as much of a functioning confirmed pro-town brain as he does.

unvote: GW, vote: OMG makes a hammer.

I did think the last two votes in half an hour was pretty suspicious.

Honestly, I didn't notice that my vote was so soon timewise after the second-to-last one. I read since the last time I'd gotten on, saw OMG's self vote and claim and more than a page of discussion since then, and figured things had about gone far enough.

But aside from that and the fact that Norinel was hammering, I just don't like how he says "Let's remember that anyone who lynched OMG is probably town because he's acting like this." The fact that he wants to get that in before his vote, it's like he already knows OMG is town... and don't hold him (or other scum) responsible.

That's not what I meant- I was more warning people against trusting OMG's suspicions blindly, because everyone has even more information now than he did then. (And if he were scum, that would've all been WIFOM for a while) And there's no good reason to trust his suspicions any more than your own. Before he claimed, my read on OMG was either annoying townie derailing conversation or nasty scum derailing conversation, so the townie claim was plausible. But for a few different reasons, including some of the ones he proposed with his self-vote, he was still a good lynch yesterday.

And nowhere have I seen Norinel scumhunting hardcore today because "the OMG lynch gave so much info." How much info can it really give if it was townish to vote him?

I'd say the lack of "scumhunting hardcore" is more of a time/style thing than anything else; the last few weeks have been pretty ridiculous for me, and I'm not generally that aggressive unless I've found something really worth pushing. And who was voting certainly isn't the only place to look for information- I think response to the self-vote would probably be the most useful, and that's where I'll start my reread over the next day or two.

[curiouskarmadog]

Oman and Dahen prodded, they have 72 hours to post.

[Oman]

Back. Sorry, forgot this game when I came back.

[XReyoX]

I'll grant you it is not the most detailed and most certainly not the most accurate LoS ever made, but don't you think there is a reason that an active person seems more townish than a lurker?

Yes, an active person can seem more townish but that is not the only thing. You seems to look at how much someone posts to determine whether he is town only.

If you were to do an LoS right now, how different would it be, just out of interest?

I don't know tbh. I don't keep a LoS. Even if I do make a list, I don't usually post it unless someone wants one. I always feel like the scum can make use of it.

Okay, I'll admit that I'm not going out of my way to scumhunt right now, but neither are you Reyo, nobody is right now.

I don't think thats true. I've asked questions and I'm waiting for responses. Although the stuffs I've pointed out aren't major scumtells, I believe the answers can move the game forward. "Nobody is scumhunting right now" <-- is not true either.

---

I did think the last two votes in half an hour was pretty suspicious.

Honestly, I didn't notice that my vote was so soon timewise after the second-to-last one. I read since the last time I'd gotten on, saw OMG's self vote and claim and more than a page of discussion since then, and figured things had about gone far enough.

It is not only the timeframe in between the last 2 votes. It is the fact that the only post in between the two is OMG's last post. You didn't allow anyone else to respond to the situation, norinel.

[GhostWriter]

GhostWriter - Has posted little value, seemed to buddy up to OMG at points throughout yesterday. Accused everyone of bad voting as the bandwagoning reasons were weak.

Okay, I made it clear, several times, that I did not think OMG was mafia. I made it clear, several times, that I felt he was town. Therefore, I did not want him to be lynched, as I felt it would be bad to go along with the lynch of someone I felt was town. I don't regret "buddying up" to him. I was right in my assumption. And I did say that I thought there was a fair amount of bad voting going around. And, as you've shown, it was because of the lack of good, strong reasons. I'm supposed to just sit back and not point out that crappy ass reasons are being thrown out, as people jump onto a bandwagon? No. I'm going to point out the fault, and hope that someone will notice a slip-up of the mafia where I did not.

As for this, general feeling, that some of you are having about my being scum, would you care to elaborate? Nobody has yet faulted what I've said yet you guys simply seem to get the impression that my posts are too, well I guess artificial is the word. Well, I really don't know how I'm supposed to defend myself against that, so I'll just leave that one there.

As of now, I only have the fact that you believe my calling out a bad bandwagon was a tell. Maybe they're right. Maybe you're just working with a bad radar at the moment. But I only have that feeling you give me of being mafia. However, you aren't the only one I have that feeling about anymore.

[XReyoX]

Buddying up, bussing and distancing are only reliable when the lynchee has committed a major scumtell or nothing at all. In the OMG case, i think discussing about it will just lead us into a WIFOM argument, IMO.

[XReyoX]

I just wanted OMG out really, his attitude was annoying and he had to use several posts instead of poting just one long one.

Annoying attitude =/= scum
Using several posts instead of one long one =/=scum
Thus your vote is based on OMGUS.

actually i have to concede, your post does not make for a good case validation.

BM

BM, are you denying the correlative?

[Norinel]

So, my thoughts on how OMG went down.

In post 369, he essentially claims townie and puts down the antepenultimate vote on himself. He makes the case that us not knowing his alignment is more confusing than anything else, and lynching someone who the mafia/cult are pretty sure is a townie is not a bad idea. I kind of agree with him on those, except that the first point wasn't because we don't comprehend his glorious brilliance. (But that's neither here nor there)

Right after the self-vote, PP makes the same points about condescension and scummy playstyle that I and she'd been making for a while. She does talk about Elias as a viable alternative for the Day 1 lynch, which seems a little off since she hadn't talked much about him before. And Reyo just sort of agrees with that without adding anything- the points were certainly pretty good, but that wasn't useful.

But then things drift over to Elias, mostly Elias/BM/PP talking about being suspicious of Elias for voting OMG. The one thing I see scum/cult getting out of doing that is some "I told you so" points for whenever OMG did get revealed as town. I would have figured that OMG's lynch was pretty much inevitable by that point, but if they did change the lynch, then it'd be harder to get anywhere useful today. (Now that we know there's a vig, it's more likely that had we lynched Elias, Xtox might've vigged him, but scum probably didn't know that at the time)

BM brings things back to OMG by calling him as mafia, and Xtox calls him as town. Most everyone else seemed to be discussing the Elias-OMG relationship, which the scum knew wouldn't get us much of anywhere at the time, and now we know it weren't. When OMG advocates for his lynch again, Elias and I drop the hammer.

As far as the people who are still alive who had a hand in that, PP's the one who worries me the most. Her points are good overall, but it seems like she's been driving the town around quite a bit with her choice of targets and stuff, especially with OMG gone. That's a bad thing if she's scum, but the best way to figure that out is to figure out if the directions she's been pushing are worthwhile, which is hard to tell in the early game. The one thing we know for sure is that Elias wasn't a good direction.

[Norinel]

It is not only the timeframe in between the last 2 votes. It is the fact that the only post in between the two is OMG's last post. You didn't allow anyone else to respond to the situation, norinel.

What situation was there to respond to? OMG still advocating for his lynch, or Elias voting?

Okay, I made it clear, several times, that I did not think OMG was mafia. I made it clear, several times, that I felt he was town. Therefore, I did not want him to be lynched, as I felt it would be bad to go along with the lynch of someone I felt was town. I don't regret "buddying up" to him. I was right in my assumption. And I did say that I thought there was a fair amount of bad voting going around. And, as you've shown, it was because of the lack of good, strong reasons. I'm supposed to just sit back and not point out that crappy ass reasons are being thrown out, as people jump onto a bandwagon? No. I'm going to point out the fault, and hope that someone will notice a slip-up of the mafia where I did not.

But you can't just sit around waiting for someone else to come up with a good strong reason and say "No, that's bad voting" whenever anyone comes up with something. That's not going to get us anywhere, and it's not going to help the town.

[Xtoxm]

There was no way I was gonna lynch OMG he had me comletely convinced and I voiced strong objections to his lynch.

[Xtoxm]

Vig*

[Friend of Old]

Xtoxm, was that really a necessary statement, I don't see how it gets us anywhere.

I don't think thats true. I've asked questions and I'm waiting for responses. Although the stuffs I've pointed out aren't major scumtells, I believe the answers can move the game forward. "Nobody is scumhunting right now" <-- is not true either.

Really? to me the atmoshpere is one of us just sitting around waiting for the next big thing to happen, however unfortunately I don't think that's going to happen. Maybe I would be more accurate if I said we currently have no hardcore scumhunting going on, just soft, light 'feelings' being thrown around.

As of now, I only have the fact that you believe my calling out a bad bandwagon was a tell. Maybe they're right. Maybe you're just working with a bad radar at the moment. But I only have that feeling you give me of being mafia. However, you aren't the only one I have that feeling about anymore.

Me questioning you about why, while we were trying to create oppertunities through (I'll admit that they were weak) bandwagons you just sat around saying we were voting poorly. In my experience if you bandwaggon on the weak reasons you have at the start behaviour on that bandwagon leads to antoher stronger one, and so on and so forth. We start by random voting, then we vote for weak reasons because there won't be any strong ones. If you had said 'Guys, look, this is poor, what we should be doing is... and this will progress us by...' I wouldn't have a problem. However what you were doing was essentially saying that we should stop the bandwagons and, do what exactly? Discussion would stagnate, deadline rolls round, free shot for scum.

Now am I misinterpreting what you were doing, or am I on the right track?

And also who are these other people you get scummy 'vibes' from, maybe there is something worth persuing.

[Xtoxm]

He was making false statements about me. I don't like that.

[Pink Puppy]

As far as the people who are still alive who had a hand in that, PP's the one who worries me the most. Her points are good overall, but it seems like she's been driving the town around quite a bit with her choice of targets and stuff, especially with OMG gone. That's a bad thing if she's scum, but the best way to figure that out is to figure out if the directions she's been pushing are worthwhile, which is hard to tell in the early game. The one thing we know for sure is that Elias wasn't a good direction.

And how was I supposed to know Elias was a "bad direction"? BEsides, I don't remember xtoxm saying it was my suspicions that caused him to vig elias. I think he would have vigged elias anyway. I'm not saying that was a bad move -- but I didn't do it.

I've been throwing out a lot of stuff this game, some of it people seem to really support, and some of it people never answer (like the GSG wagon stuff). I'm scumhunting. If you would rather me say nothing, that's pretty anti-town.

On the other hand, Norinel, I think your play has been more watching us play and commenting, than actually playing. Which... is scummy.

[Xtoxm]

PP - Just to confirm for you, my vigging had nothing to do with you

I thought i'd made suspicions of Elias clear.

[GhostWriter]

As of now, I only have the fact that you believe my calling out a bad bandwagon was a tell. Maybe they're right. Maybe you're just working with a bad radar at the moment. But I only have that feeling you give me of being mafia. However, you aren't the only one I have that feeling about anymore.

Me questioning you about why, while we were trying to create oppertunities through (I'll admit that they were weak) bandwagons you just sat around saying we were voting poorly. In my experience if you bandwaggon on the weak reasons you have at the start behaviour on that bandwagon leads to antoher stronger one, and so on and so forth. We start by random voting, then we vote for weak reasons because there won't be any strong ones. If you had said 'Guys, look, this is poor, what we should be doing is... and this will progress us by...' I wouldn't have a problem. However what you were doing was essentially saying that we should stop the bandwagons and, do what exactly? Discussion would stagnate, deadline rolls round, free shot for scum.

Now am I misinterpreting what you were doing, or am I on the right track?

And also who are these other people you get scummy 'vibes' from, maybe there is something worth persuing.

You are misinterpreting it. I did not not say we should stop bandwagonS, with an "s". I did not say that the discussion should stop. I did not imply that a deadline should go by without a decision being made. I, in no way, gave the appearance of wishing for a free shot for the mafia. Where the hell did you even pick that up? Kindly don't put words in my mouth or ideas into my words.

I said that I did not like how people were jumping onto the bandwagon with such weak reasons. People jumped onto the wagon, using reasons stated by those before them, and the wagon was building up to a hammer way too fast. Someone could have waited until the L-1 vote was placed, and placed a vote in that same minute, and then said that they didn't know someone else had voted as well. What's more, when someone said that wagons can be a good thing, I agreed with them, and then stated that SPECIFICALLY that OMG one was not a good wagon. I've used wagons before. I know they can be a good thing, when properly looked after. That one was getting out of hand, at least to me, and so I said so.

As for the other people: right now it's dahen, for reasons I already stated in previous posts, and Oman, because I can't get a read on him no matter how hard I try, and haven't been able to this whole game.

[dahen]

I'm here again and will continue my catch up today. From what I scanned through on the last page it seems like interesting things are starting to happen.