Mini 578 - Mistery at Montescuro - Game Over!

[Near]

/confirmed

[Near]

Vote Yosarian

because he thinks everyone's crazy.

hi everyone!

FOS VampanezeHunter

for not falling for OMGUS trap and voting for Dasquian or Macavenger.

FOS Joudas

for talking weird. Watch for post game restriction.

[Near]

I was going to respond to you Macavenger with a one liner, but let's wait on what other people think of it first.

And no, I don't have a post restriction and have yet to play a game with one. I think it would be fun!

[Near]

LOL. It was a joke..

[Near]

Seriously though, FOS everyone who accused me of being a scummy for my joke FOS's following my random vote. In particular,

FOS Singing Librarian

for nonrandom voting me because of it.

[Near]

Wow, this game is going at quite a pace.

Near's FOS on VampanezeHunter for not OMGUSing me is weird and I don't agree with it. Other people have said this, and now I'm saying it too. I also don't like Near saying "it was a joke" - didn't seem like a joke at the time.

Explain. How can anyone think that my post was serious unless you were trying to look for a victim for your a bandwagon.

[Near]

Well, I thought it was serious, because you actually did FOS him and gave a reason, and gave no signs of it being a hilarious gag.

Exactly what I thought.

Wow. The reasons were complete jokes. FOSing someone for not OMGUSing the person who is voting for him? Watch for post restriction after the person has made like one post?

And

if i wasn't joking

, why does it make me suspicious? I am trying to start a wagon on three people at once?

[Near]

And if i wasn't joking, why does it make me suspicious? I am trying to start a wagon on three people at once?

Because your reasons sucked?

so you think it was more likely than not that i didn't know that my reasons sucked?

[Near]

Uh oh. I'm at 5 votes.
I am accumlating votes so quickly. I better do something.

I will start by who I think look scummy. Pending within 30 minutes

[Near]

Vote: Near

That's L-2.
Near, post something useful, or die.

First, I want to say that I was really joking.

Vote Yosarian

because he thinks everyone's crazy.

hi everyone!
FOS VampanezeHunter for not falling for OMGUS trap and voting for Dasquian or Macavenger.

FOS Joudas for talking weird. Watch for post game restriction.

That was my post. As you can see, my reason for Yosarian was a complete joke. I was making a reference to catch-22. Then I just made random FOS's as jokes. Some people have stated that my reasons suck. But they don't suck enough to be jokes? What about consider it as a continuatio from the random joke vote of Yosarian? If I was actually serious, why didn't I vote one of the two FOS's instead of random voting Yosarian?

I don't think he's done anything too scummy, but his posts seem like they're distracting town rather than help town find mafia. FoS: Near

@Near: Why are you ignoring the discussion about VH or about Guardian's case? Do you have any suspicions of your own?

I am not sure about VH, don't remember reading it, but I don't think Guardian is a scum. I disagree with Guardian's citing studies by Adel. It could be biased on many aspects. For example, it could be that when a scum is a major suspect on day 1, he's less likely to give up or lurk/make fewer posts than when the major suspect is a townie. Still, I don't see how this makes Guardian scummy. Wrong =\= scummy.

If there is one thing that is weird, it's that Guardian responded to someone (I forget) saying "you don't mean we should lynch someone on page2", since even if Adel's studies was what Guardian was thinking about it obviously doesn't apply at this extreme case of lynching someone on page 2. Still, I don't find him that suspicious.

There are two people who I find suspcious. JamesThePhox and Macavagner. Both make long posts, which is good, but when there wasn't much of a wagon, he stated that my joke voting on Yosarian wasn't very scummy but FOSed me because I am distracting town. Then when my bandwagon seem to grow, he decided to vote me without much reason.

Plus he said:

I'll Unvote for now, since Macavenger isn't high on my suspect list at the moment. Not leaving him off the hook though.

Had the hunch this was distancing => let me now move on to a real bandwagon kind of post. Which implicates Macavenger.

Anyway, I know my case is pretty weak, but that's my input for now. I don't have much else to say really.

Oh, I also want to mention that

It requires 4 more votes to lynch Fox. Use your votes wisely .

I found this suspicious at first because I thought he's trying to "hint" that he's a townie by quoting from the townie pm on page 1. But, I re-read the pm and it doesn't say anything about "using your votes wisely" although it is a typical townie pm in many games.

[Near]

I feel like now is a good time to mention that it's been almost 3 days since Near's "oops I've been prodded here's some stuff" post, over 2 days since I asked him a direct question in response to that post, and he's yet to post here again. Meanwhile from his post history, he's posted 33 times in other games since the post here, 28 since my question for him. He just doesn't seem to want to post in this game unless he's been prodded.

This leads me to conclude that leaving my vote on him was the correct choice.

Repeating for Near's benefit:

Why do you think I'm scummy? Do you have any case other than the tenuous link you suggested between Phox and myself? Is there anyone besides myself and Phox that looks scummy to you?

LOL. You actually counted huh. I like the fact that you take this game seriously.

I will have to do a re-read to refresh my memory, but I think there was another reason other than imagining you and Phox were scum-mates. I don't think I have anything else to add really. I will do a more through read. But I can't promise content.

[Near]

Unvote

Vote JamesThePhox

Seriously, I don't have much to say except the fact that looking at his vote history, he was trying to bandwagon from best lynch target to the next.

[Near]

Near -- why are you posting in other games, but not here? Near -- when you do that -- have different posting habits in different games -- unless you have a good explanation for it, it is very suspicious, especially in the games you are posting less in (here).

Responding to a prod.

I post more in games that are in more interesting stages. And I post when I have stuff to write about. Having said that, I realize I do have a responsibility to contribute in this game, so for this, I apologize. I am going to read what happened in last few pages, and I am going to post my thoughts.

[Near]

I finished a re-read.

We are already on page 10, and I don't see anything close a lynch-target. The person with most votes is me, and that's because I haven't been posting. Despite this being mostly my fault, I want have to say it's pretty weak. The person with second highest vote count is JamesThePhox. Even though I am one of the people who have voted against him, I am not even close to wanting to lynch him at the moment.

First, my defense. I have not been posting very much, so I do agree with the recent votes against me to try to get me to post more. But looking at how easy it was to form a bandwagon strong enough to put me at L-2

twice

should be taken as evidence that the bandwagon was at least partially scum-driven.

My other thoughts:

To be honest, I also had mixed feelings while I was writing that paragraph mainly because Near's posts so far are so ambiguous and off-topic that it was hard for me to classify him as either mafia or pro-town.

At the time, I actually haven't posted much about the game other than the random vote. What posts of mine qualified as "ambiguous"? I can agree with "off-topic" on my first post, but that was the reason for everyone voting against me - because people thought I was trying to find reasons to start a bandwagon. I find your qualifications of my posts as "ambiguous" ambiguous.

So, you're right in saying that the post was a bit awkward and strange, however, it was because of the difficulty I had classifying him as either or. Ultimately, I feel that his posts have not helped town in scum hunting in any way, which makes him the highest on my suspect list.

After looking back on some of Near's posts, I think I'll stick with him unless other suspicions pop up. Vote: Near

I, indeed, didn't make any useful post at the time. But there were other people at the time (e.g. VH who hasn't been replaced yet) who both avoided questions and lurked more than I have.The fact that you singled me out at a very convenient time, when the bandwagon against me was getting stronger makes you scummy.

[Near]

Near, to clarify, Phox is your #1 target, but the evidence on him is so shaky you don't want to see him lynched?

To clarify, I find Phox is scummy but the evidence on him is not enough to want to lynch him on Day 1 unless we must lynch someone due to deadline constraints.

[Near]

Ok, Near, then, what do you think about Pyro? You haven't really commented on Coron (and my) suspicion of him.

Pyro doesn't come off scummy to me. When sensfan was obviously vote hopping, I actually saw her as pretty pro-town or experienced scum, but mostly pro-town. I found it slightly weird that Pyro questioned sensfan because of it, but I think it's possible. People get different reactions to same posts, and I don't think his reasoning sounded that scummy.

I actually find Coron suspicious for creating a link between Pyro and JamesThePhox (that they are scum partners) and trying hard to lynch Pyro instead of JamesThePhox. This will be beneficial assuming Coron and JamesThePhox as scum team, as if Pyro turns out town, Coron can use it as an argument for supporting JamesThePhox.

All in all, I don't have strong opinion on anything so far.

[Near]

I see no reason to take my vote off of Near.

Near, we're going to lynch someone today. Currently it looks like you. If you're pro-town, letting this happen will do the town a disservice, so why shouldn't we lynch you?

This is why we

should

lynch you: you are non-committal to the point of insult, which is a scum-tell, as trying to get someone you know to be innocent lynched as scum is pretty scary. Also, you're prone to extreme lurking while being active on the site, giving excuses about the game not having enough going on - sorry, but you getting bandwagonned is something you can definitely comment about sooner than L-2.

You say that "not posting a lot" isn't a very good case. You're right, it's not, but when you're avoiding the spotlight like you have been, you're avoiding the opportunity to give the town a better case, which is beneficial to scum and hence is anti-town.

Good, fair post. I will do a re-read tomorrow and see if I can come up with something different. But it's hard to make stuff up if I can't find anything.

But I do apologize if you felt that I'm neglecting this game to the "point of insult". Whether or not I am lynched, I will try harder to defend myself.

On that note, I can't imagine a scum coming up with a post like this.

[Near]

I'm kind of torn on whether Near is a good candidate for a lynch right now or not. On one hand, he's noncommittal, he's non participatory, and in general, he's not helping town at all. On the other hand, though, after going back through and trying to find some semi-valid links between him and other people, I'm really not seeing anything that could be called anything but circumstantial. This is bad, in that if he's lynched today, no matter what he turns up, it doesn't really give us a lot to go on tomorrow. The lynch is town's main weapon if and only if it provides useful information.

Am I missing something? Going back and looking at Near's posts and others posts about Near, what links could we establish? What direction would you want to go day 2 if he turned up scum? If he turned up town?

Also keep in mind how easy people got me to L-2. In two different occasions because I wasn't participating enough in this game. While I do agree that it is fair to vote against me because I wasn't contributing enough, I still find it interesting how easy and without opposition I was put at L-2. From my perspective, I am inclined to think that most of the scums were/are on my bandwagon both times.

[Near]

Guardian, you look scummy.

[Near]

Dasquian. Vote Guardian or Phox.
They are scums.

[Near]

Hmm, at first when I read Guardian's post where he says:

I hate mafia, because I have to convince people of stuff I'm pretty sure about. Why can't you just trust my motives and judgment? "

I was like wow, guardian must be cop and he checked out dasquian N0. But then, this was a day start game. My first reaction was, wtf is guardian talking about. I actually started quoting Guardian's original post regarding his suspicion of Dasquian with an intent to argue why his post was scummy. But upon a re-read, it doesn't look that scummy. It actually sounds pretty reasonable.

Guardian, your main argument for suspecting Dasquian seems to be that he's been targeting weak preys all day. His initial suspicion of VH, you said, came to an end because he was replaced by a "good player". And now he's focusing on me. But then, aren't most people who are voting for me in the same category as Dasquian? What differentiates Dasquian from, say Macavenger? I think Macavenger is the main person who's been behind my wagon because I am not contributing much to this game.

Post 234, where he asks if I prefer Near or Pyro, REEKS like he knows ONE of them is scum, and wants to catch me in a trap later when one of them turns up as scum.

I think you are reading too much into this. But if this was true, then he probably hoped that you say you prefer Pyro lynch over me, for reason obvious to me (that is, if Dasquian is indeed scum).

Also, what do you think about post 246 where Dasquian explains reasons for voting me.

[Near]

I was like wow, guardian must be cop and he checked out dasquian N0.

Had I cop'd dasquian, I'd have gotten a guilty result? Thanks for that tip .

So you seem to think I made a slip here. Don't you think my saying this was too deliberate to be a slip?

But then, this was a day start game. My first reaction was, wtf is guardian talking about. I actually started quoting Guardian's original post regarding his suspicion of Dasquian with an intent to argue why his post was scummy. But upon a re-read, it doesn't look that scummy. It actually sounds pretty reasonable.

Sweet, being suspicious of Dasquian is reasonable! Cuz he's your scumbuddy right?

Your reasoning for suspecting Dasquian was reasonable.

But then, aren't most people who are voting for me in the same category as Dasquian? What differentiates Dasquian from, say Macavenger? I think Macavenger is the main person who's been behind my wagon because I am not contributing much to this game.

Yeah but, Macdaddy has the significant difference that he's also been focusing on more

difficult to read targets, like me for example

. And then there's the fact that Mac's probably town, so, ya know, there goes that.

I thought the bolded part of your post makes you scummy. Can you guess why I thought so? Also, what do you mean "And then there's the fact that Mac's probably town"?

Post 234, where he asks if I prefer Near or Pyro, REEKS like he knows ONE of them is scum, and wants to catch me in a trap later when one of them turns up as scum.

I think you are reading too much into this. But if this was true, then he probably hoped that you say you prefer Pyro lynch over me, for reason obvious to me (that is, if Dasquian is indeed scum).

Hm so uh, you are denying that, if Dasquian is scum you are his scum partner? Remember, if you lie in answering this question we'll have to lynch you.

I'm simply denying that I am a scum, which goes without saying. What did you mean by "if you lie in answering this question we'll have to lynch you"? What are you saying! Did you think, if I were a scum, I would fall for this trap? Anyway, even if I were a scum and Dasquian was my scum partner, I might even say Dasquian was my partner to make it look like he's not. This is wifom and won't provide any information even if I were to turn scum when lynched.

Also, what do you think about post 246 where Dasquian explains reasons for voting me.

I find it similar to 263 and a not unreasonable basis for finding you suspicious.

Current readouts give a projection of 68.3% likelihood that Near is being bus'd by Dasquian, and Near just tried to get me to be suspicious of Macavager instead of Dasquian and himself, hoping I'd be likely to OMGUS Macavager.

While I can understand the reasoning behind your post where you explain your suspicion for Dasquin, I do not agree with the extent you seem to think Dasquin is scummy.

[Near]

I'm...confused by this comment. Why would hypothetical dasquin-scum be hoping Guardian wants to lynch you instead of Pyro, Near?

Because if Dasquin knows one of Near or Pyro is scum, then he must be scum buddy with either me or Pyro. For reason obvious to me, the only possibility is Dasquin being scum buddy with Pyro. Therefore, Dasquin would hope that Guardian makes a mistake and hope Guardian pushes for my lynch.

[Near]

In other news:

I was like wow, guardian must be cop and he checked out dasquian N0.

Had I cop'd dasquian, I'd have gotten a guilty result? Thanks for that tip .

So you seem to think I made a slip here.

Don't you think my saying this was too deliberate to be a slip?

Urgh. Don't you think that the sentence in bold is the most WIFOM-y sentence in the entire game? If your aim was to make yourself seem even more suspicious, then Mr Near, you have succeeded admirably.

This was the point of my argument . That is, if I was deliberate and careful, this would be WIFOM which would nullify what Guardian said initially: "Had I cop'd dasquian, I'd have gotten a guilty result? Thanks for that tip ."

[Near]

So you seem to think I made a slip here. Don't you think my saying this was too deliberate to be a slip?

Several people have already commented on this, but this is just so terrible it's worth bringing up again. It's like the opposite of the "too townie" fallacy: I'm so scummy I couldn't possibly be scum!

This was the point of my argument . That is, if I was deliberate and careful, this would be WIFOM which would nullify what Guardian said initially: "Had I cop'd dasquian, I'd have gotten a guilty result? Thanks for that tip ."

This seems to have been posted while I was writing the rest. So, you're claiming that you've made a WIFOM statement which somehow nullifies someone's argument now? Is there a reason this isn't a scummy crock of shit that I'm not seeing?

Honestly, at this point, I am wondering if you are actually thinking about what I am trying to say OR if you are just trying to make me look scummy in anyway possible.

-1. Guardian said: "I hate mafia, because I have to convince people of stuff I'm pretty sure about. Why can't you just trust my motives and judgment?"
0. I said: "I was like wow, guardian must be cop and he checked out dasquian N0. But then, this was a day start game. My first reaction was, wtf is guardian talking about."
1. Guardian said: "Had I cop'd dasquian, I'd have gotten a guilty result? Thanks for that tip "
2. He is implying that I am a scum, and Dasquian is my scum partner.
3. If 0 was deliberate and not a slip, then you cannot get 2 from 0 because it's wifom.

I'm simply denying that I am a scum, which goes without saying. What did you mean by "if you lie in answering this question we'll have to lynch you"? What are you saying! Did you think, if I were a scum, I would fall for this trap? Anyway, even if I were a scum and Dasquian was my scum partner, I might even say Dasquian was my partner to make it look like he's not. This is wifom and won't provide any information even if I were to turn scum when lynched.

Talking about how you could WIFOM this stuff is different from actually doing it how?

I was illustrating to Guardian why either answer to his question would lead to WIFOM.

My overall feeling from Macavenger's post: his main goal seems to be trying to make me look scummy no matter what I say. He doesn't seem to focus on what I am actually trying to say in my argument, instead he seems to be mainly concerned about how he can make my argument look scummy. It is true that a blind townie who absolutely convinced with himself that I am a scum can make this kind of arguments. But at this point, I am more inclined to think Macvaenger is a scum trying to lynch an easy target who has quite a bandwagon already.

[Near]

Honestly, at this point, I am wondering if you are actually thinking about what I am trying to say OR if you are just trying to make me look scummy in anyway possible.

-1. Guardian said: "I hate mafia, because I have to convince people of stuff I'm pretty sure about. Why can't you just trust my motives and judgment?"
0. I said: "I was like wow, guardian must be cop and he checked out dasquian N0. But then, this was a day start game. My first reaction was, wtf is guardian talking about."
1. Guardian said: "Had I cop'd dasquian, I'd have gotten a guilty result? Thanks for that tip "
2. He is implying that I am a scum, and Dasquian is my scum partner.
3. If 0 was deliberate and not a slip, then you cannot get 2 from 0 because it's wifom.

The point you're missing here is that, from what you've said here, there are two possibilities:

1) You slipped and are scum with Dasquian.
2) You're admitting to deliberately WIFOMing, which from everything I've seen in my admittedly limited time here, is usually considered scummy.

Can you see how this doesn't look good for you? In either alternative, your statements come out as scummy.

1) Re-read my post and tell me if you think I made a slip.
2) No. I am not admitting to deliberately WIFOMing. I am arguing what Guardian said was WIFOM.

Hm so uh, you are denying that, if Dasquian is scum you are his scum partner? Remember, if you lie in answering this question we'll have to lynch you.

I'm simply denying that I am a scum, which goes without saying. What did you mean by "if you lie in answering this question we'll have to lynch you"? What are you saying! Did you think, if I were a scum, I would fall for this trap? Anyway, even if I were a scum and Dasquian was my scum partner, I might even say Dasquian was my partner to make it look like he's not. This is wifom and won't provide any information even if I were to turn scum when lynched.

Talking about how you could WIFOM this stuff is different from actually doing it how?

I was illustrating to Guardian why either answer to his question would lead to WIFOM.

I added Guardian's inital question to the quote chain here to help illustrate. Guardian's question looks mostly rhetorical/joking to me. There was really no reason for you to reply beyond "I'm simply denying I'm scum" if you were going to reply to it at all - honestly I wouldn't bother with that kind of question. When you then go on from there about how you could fall for the "trap" and WIFOM about Dasquian being your partner, when there's no reason for you to say any of that in the first place... you're actually WIFOMing about being scum with Dasquian as your partner.

Now you are saying that you think Guardian was being sarcastic. This isn't what you said eailer. I didn't find Guardian's post to be rhetorical, that's why I explained either answer to his question would lead to WIFOM

[Near]

Near, I need you to give me a name: who is the most suspicious player, and why?

ps: I think it is cute how Dasquian just tried to draw a line between me and Near.

JamesThePhox for reasons stated in my prior posts.
Macavenger for recent post where he forces unreasonable arguments to make me scummy.

[Near]

Near basically has given me no reason to back off. There's a niggling doubt that he is just a townie with an odd turn of phrase, but his sole line of defence appears to be to cite some textbook WIFOM, even when he should just be letting things slide (eg the N0 cop comment). I would like to hear a claim from him.

What am I defending myself from? Guardian's accusation that I am trying to distance you? Buddy up with you? OR are we still talking about my suspicious random vote on page 3?

I don't think I have been acting scummy. I admitted to being inactive for awhile, but I am back. And citing the WIFOM post. I do hope people here read posts more carefully. I was not defending myself. I was responding to Guardian's post, pointing out his logical mistake. If you think I was defending myself, I was doing so by trying to post my thoughts.

IF for other reasons, you find scummy, I ask you to state your case clearly. I will respond, and try my best to defend myself. I am not going to get lynched without a fight.

[Near]

Hi DarlaBlueEyes

WhiteDragon

! I'll second Joudas question - I'm interested to hear why I get your sole FOS. Also, like others have said, your vote on Near for "self-preservation" doesn't inspire confidence.

On the last page, Near asked me to lay out my case against him. I thought I'd already done this, but:

1) Active lurking.
2) Non-committal scum-hunting, going through the motions but not rocking anyone's boat.
3) Over-reliance on classic WIFOM defence - he's done this three distinct times now. Firstly his "joke" FOS, then the fact he got pushed to L-2 twice (on the basis that this wouldn't have happened unless scum were pushing his wagon), and now his reaction to the potential cop investigation.

All of these are individually scummy, and Near's doing them all and giving me scummy vibes while he's doing it. Hence why I currently am looking for a claim.

1) First of all, I don't even find active-lurking a good tactic for scums. But if you find this suspicious, then I have no way to defend myself. This is in the past. I am not lurking anymore.

2) Non-committal scum-hunting can be a scum-tell. It could also be a sign of townie who doesn't have good idea who the scums are. Like I said before, I can try to fabricate an accusation on someone to try to make that person look scummy. Doing so can possibly make me look less scummy, but it conflicts with my top objective of finding the actual scums.

3) My joke FOS was a case of WIFOM? HOW?

Secondly, my defense that scums are not as likely to be put at L-2, which requires 5 total votes, is not WIFOM. It's not the strongest defense, but townies are more likely to be put at L-2 for lurking than a scum.

And my reaction to potential cop investigation? Again, I was not using WIFOM to defend myself. I was pointing out that either answer to Guardian's question would result in WIFOM.

[Near]

2) Non-committal scum-hunting can be a scum-tell. It could also be a sign of townie who doesn't have good idea who the scums are. Like I said before, I can try to fabricate an accusation on someone to try to make that person look scummy. Doing so can possibly make me look less scummy, but it conflicts with my top objective of finding the actual scums.

If you're town and don't have much idea who the scum are, you should be asking lots of questions looking for reactions that give you an idea.

Fair enough.

3) My joke FOS was a case of WIFOM? HOW?

I believe Dasquian is referring to your defense of calling it a joke here. It could have been a joke... or it could have been distancing that you wanted us to think was a joke.

Wow. Seriously? You guys are saying I was making a reference to WIFOM when I random voted and then said it was a joke? That is a WIFOM???

If you're going to make jokes past the random stage, you should be indicating it somehow when we make them. Remember that text doesn't convey humor nearly as well as speech.

I did. My reasons for FOSes were stupid. They were jokes. More importantly, my reason for voting Yossarian was complete joke. Like I said, I was making a reference to the book Catch-22. Here is my post:

Vote Yosarian

because he thinks everyone's crazy.

hi everyone!
FOS VampanezeHunter for not falling for OMGUS trap and voting for Dasquian or Macavenger.

FOS Joudas for talking weird. Watch for post game restriction.

Plus I explained this a while ago. At the time of my explanation, you said that the main reason for your voting me was my lurking, NOT my random vote in non random stage. Dasquian said this also. What, now you guys need to fabricate more reasons to come up with why I am a scum?

Secondly, my defense that scums are not as likely to be put at L-2, which requires 5 total votes, is not WIFOM. It's not the strongest defense, but townies are more likely to be put at L-2 for lurking than a scum.

You could be a townie getting run up by scums. But what if you're also scum getting bussed? See the WIFOM? Why don't you analyze everyone's reasons for getting on your wagon and tell us which ones are the scums?

Both are possible, but that doesn't make this WIFOM. I said, townies are more likely to be put at L-2 because scums are on the same team and can act together to join the same bandwagon.

If a scum was being pushed to be put at L-2, it would take 5 real townies to put him at L-2. If a townie is being pushed to be put at L-2, and if 3 scums decide to join the bandwagon, it would only take 2 townies to put him at L-2. Of course things are not as simple as this in reality, but I do consider it a fact that townie is more likely to be bandwagon-ed more easily than a scum.

And my reaction to potential cop investigation? Again, I was not using WIFOM to defend myself. I was pointing out that either answer to Guardian's question would result in WIFOM.

Your first reaction to the accusation of the slip was this:

So you seem to think I made a slip here. Don't you think my saying this was too deliberate to be a slip?

As several people have pointed out, this is not only WIFOM, but a particularly bad example of it as well.

Dude, it was Guardian who said "Had I cop'd dasquian, I'd have gotten a guilty result? Thanks for that tip ."

[Near]

I do see Macavenger + Dasquian scum partner.

[Near]

I second Dasquain's motion,

You should probably be voting for Near then. By supporting Dasquian's motion, you're supporting Near's bandwagon but not voting for him, which is generally considered a scum tactic.

I also agree with Dasquian here, which should be obvious based on the way I've been calling for Near to be lynched for a while now.

Agree with Joudas that Darla's mistakes look more like "new player" than "scum" to me. It's certainly something to keep in mind, but Near is a far better lynch today.

Unvote

Vote: Macvenger

so, you were a scum...

Also don't mind voting for Dasquian.

[Near]

I see that I will most likely be lynched today. I am not sure how much I can do since deadline is in a couple of days. I would like to ask for a deadline extension. We did have to replace a couple of players in this game.

I am still re-reading last few pages. I thought I wanted to make a comment on this:

Too many people want to lynch Near, IMO. Perhaps there's a good reason for it that I didn't pick up, being the replacement and all, but I think it's too strongly pushed, and a lot of people are just saying "Near is scum and I won't pursue anyone else until he's lynched".

He's stealing my reasoning!

This is a good point. I know I said this at least a couple of times before, but I want to say it again. From the beginning of the game until now, I was the top suspect for a scum. I was heavily accused for some random voting. Then was put at L-2 just because I was lurking. Then when I came back and tried to defend myself, the accusations seemed to die down briefly, then I was put back to L-2 again. For making WIFOM statements. I was actually pointing out Guardian's WIFOM statement, but even if I was, I don't think these are very good reasons to pursue someone all day long.

[Near]

Don't have much to add right now.

Near needs to post.

I agree that Near needs to post AND CLAIM.

I have no special power.

[Near]

If you guys have more questions for me, do ask. I will try to answer them as best as I can. Basically, I feel like I pretty much need to come up with convincing accusation on someone else or I will be lynched. I want to do a thorough read from page 1. This would be possible if mod can give us a one week extension.

Otherwise, I will try to do as much as I can tomorrow.

[Near]

Guys, so close to deadline and so close to being lynched, I could have claimed doctor to at least get the real doctor to counter claim. I am a vanilla townie, and I wish I were a power role so you guys won't lynch me.

Claus, why not a deadline? HOw about one more day? We had to replace a couple of people. I request a deadline extension of 1 more day. Just one more.

[Near]

Coron, it's somewhat odd that he claimed but it sort of makes sense if he thought there was a doctor. I believe him.

I also believe DarlaBlueEyes. But then, if what I am thinking is correct, I think it was a mistake to claim power at this stage. Were you really under that much pressure.

ALso based on recent development of Guardian voting for me, I don't think he's a scum either. I am saying this because he voted me to put me back on L-1. If he were a scum, he would know that i am not, and would try to avoid suspicion of putting the innocent townie when I will get lynched anyway.

Upon a re-read I suspect Dasquian (and also Macvenger to lesser extent). Dasquian's reason for voting me in the middle of the day was understandable. I did not contribute regularly and I felt that it was fair to place a vote to get me to post my thoughts. Recently, I believe I have been doing that. I was away last weekend, but before that, I was one of more active posters here. And I also feel that I have answered his questions on why he finds me scummy in a reasonable manner. He has not responded to it yet and still refuses to remove his vote on me.

Unvote

Vote Dasquian

[Near]

Err, Dasquian is voting for DBE right now, unless I'm horribly missing something.

OK. Dasquian did unvote me. I suck.

But it doesn't really change the fact that he had his vote on me until so close to the lynch. Perhaps he knows that I will turn town and is trying to avoid the responsibility of being the main person to lynch a townie come day 2.

I also wouldn't mind voting for any of the less active players like Singing Librarian, Evilgorillaz, or Pyrodwarf.

[Near]

Here is the current vote count:

Near 4 - Singing Librarian, Macavenger, Joudas, DBE
DarlaBlueEyes 3 - Yosarian2, Coron, Dasquian
Coron 1 - MBF
Dasquian 2 - Guardian, Near
Guardian 1 - PyroDwarf

[Near]

I don't really understand people voting against people who have claimed already. I'd ask Yosarian2 and Coron to remove your votes from DarlaBlueEyes, who has claimed a power role. She has said that she is going to claim come Day2, and she probably has reasons for saying so. Coron and Yosarian2, your removing votes from DarlaBlueEyes will enable DBE to move her vote elsewhere. I don't think she suspects me.

I'd also ask you two to place a vote on someone else you find suspicious. I'd ask you to join me on lynching Dasquian. But even voting for any of the less active players would be better than nothing.

[Near]

I have to go to bed now. I am tired and am unable to make coherent posts. Guardian, I disagree with you on everything so far this game. Coron is scummy, I don't want to lynch Near, I don't think Dasq is suspicious, and I don't want to lynch DBE now that she's claimed a power role, but there's only 8 hours until the deadline. I am not going to pick between the two/three. I am just going to vote Coron. Like voting third-party in an American election, my vote will do nothing, but it is what I support.

There are only about 4 hours before deadline.

[Near]

I'd ask Yosarian2 and Coron to remove your votes from DarlaBlueEyes, who has claimed a power role. She has said that she is going to claim come Day2, and she probably has reasons for saying so.

Her saying just "I am a power role" is pretty useless to the town; it's not the kind of claim that we could ever really confirm or deny, all it does is paint a big target on her back if she's telling the truth (especally since we already have a claimed information role) without really giving the town useful information. Between that, and her "I'll claim tommorow", it really just feels like a delaying tactic to me. You do what you want, but I'm not going to unvote based on something like that.

Hmm. Upon a reconsideration, I think DBE as scum could have done this to try to divert doctor's attention from protecting Coron. I really don't see a reason for her claim here, I don't think she was under that much pressure.

Same argument can be made for Coron, he wasn't under any kind of pressure either. But I am more inclined to believe Coron, because I can see the benefit of claiming tracker in order to get doctor's protection, especially since Coron is said to be a good player and could be a NK target.

[Near]

I will be back in 2 hours, which will be roughly 2 hours before the deadline.

[Near]

OMG, guardian, are you serious?
How are you guys finding Coron suspicious? I believe him 90%. He's a tracker....... I have played in about 7 different games now, only a few of tem are complete, but tracker is not even a very common role. I highly doubt that a scum would claim tracker in this circumstances.

Honestly, I'd rather get lynched than seeing Coron lynched.

I wouldn't mind lynching DBE or Dasquian or Macvevnger or even EvilGorillaz, who has not posted much in this game. But I am definitely against Coron lynch.

At any rate, I'd probably die today.

What happens if there are two people died at 4 votes? Do both people get lynched? I am thinking about voting against DBE.

[Near]

Less than 2 hours left before deadline. Here's the current vote count:

Near (4): SingingLibraian, Macevenger, Joudas, DarlaBlueEyez
DarlaBlueEyez (3): Yos, Coron, Duck
Dasquian (1): Near
Guardian (1): PyroDwarf
Coron (2): MBF, Guardian
Not voting: EG

[Near]

Near, when you get back, you need to be giving me as much information as possible here. Your life may depend on it regardless of your alignment, and if you are town, you want to get as much out as possible for when you're death confirmed, if it comes to that.

It's pretty much between you and Coron at the moment. You're going to have to vote for Coron if you want to give me a real choice here. I'm rereading through a ton of stuff now, but ultimately I'm pretty sure my decision is going to depend on what I hear from you.

I suspect you and Dasquian. You are trying to make me lynch a tracker. No thanks. Nice try though, you scum.

[Near]

Near, explain why you think Dasquian is scummy? I was rereading your posts, and I see a hop from "I don't think Dasquian is scum" pretty quickly into "I see a Dasquian/Mac scumpair" into "Hey guys let's kill the duck not me" and not a lot of reasoning in there. There could be a bit there, I'm speedreading so may be missing stuff, but if you could put your reasoning up again it would help.

I will resummarize.

- Most of the day he was insistent on lynching me. Without much reason. You and Dasquian were both main bandwagoners who put me at L-2. You guys cited 3 reasons
A. My random vote in non-random voting stage. I can possibly accept that a person getting initially confused about my random voting and consider it scummy. But I explained it. I random voted Yossarian. DO you accept that much? I cited a book called Catch-22. Made a joke reference to it. Then voted him. THen I made two more FOS on something ridiculous like "watch for post restrictions". You guys dismissed it later, saying your main reason for suspecting me was my lurking. Yet, you guys brought this up again when you guys put me at L-2 again.
B. My lurking. Yes I admit, I didn't post as much as some of you guys, but I wasn't even the least active player. And like I said, I don't even find lurking a good strategy for scums
C. WIFOM statement. For the 4th time, I was not making a WIFOM statement I was pointing out Guardian's. But even if I were, does that make me the scummy enough to lynch me today?


I can see a connection between Dasquian and Macvenger. Of course I could be wrong, but I can sense it. THis is reinforced by the fact that Macvenger is willing to lynch Coron who has claimed tracker over Dasquian. Also the fact that Dasquian has unvoted me when it was finally pretty clear that I'd get lynched does not help his case either.

[Near]

<-insomniac

I find 1 and 2 most likely also. 2 maybe more likely than 1. HM.

I dont believe Coron, and you shouldnt either near.

know why? his claim was bullshit. mbf pointed this out. and coron has been playing for years.

he knows enough to know that tracker isnt a likely role -- AND THATS EXACTLY WHY ITS GREAT FOR SCUM TO CLAIM.

in additon, all the stuff mbf said about coron being able to come up with 1 of like 5 different kind of results that are useless, without being directly suspect for the results at all.

near, vote coron.

But can a cop or some kind of investigative role coexist with tracker role? Maybe, but I doubt it's likely, right?

[Near]

if near isnt gonna vote coron, then im prolly gonna switch my vote back to near, unless im asleep.

near, you know you are town. you can AT BEST spculate that coron is town.

letting a confirmed townie die so a maybe townie power role can live may seem like good idea, but ISNT.

except that he's not a vanilla townie. I am confirmed (To myself) but i don't have power role.

[Near]

Near, how do you feel about lynching DBE? Do you think she's been scummy, and if so, why? If you're not willing to see Coron lynched, it's between you and her.

I was fine with it until you wanted to lynch him. Since I Think you are a scum, I want to lynch someone you don't, like Dasquian.

[Near]

Near, how do you feel about lynching DBE? Do you think she's been scummy, and if so, why? If you're not willing to see Coron lynched, it's between you and her.

I was fine with it until you wanted to lynch him. Since I Think you are a scum, I want to lynch someone you don't, like Dasquian.

Again, I am saying this because DBE also claimed power role. If you are indeed a scum, Mac, then this guarantees that DBE does has some kind of power role (unless you are busing).

Let's lynch dasquian, Mac.

[Near]

near,mac could be busing. for example, if mac is scum with coron, if you vote coron, mac might just be like 'well nah, i prefer near to coron'.

voting who you find most suspicious & has a chance to be lynched if mac is town is the best play here.

if mac isnt town, and you vote someone, and he is like, oh, well, actually, ill lynch near, that gives us good info for tomorrow.

assume he is scum and choose between coron (good choice) or dbe (much worse choice imo) and run with it.

Possible that mac was busing coron, but i don't find that likely at all. I think it is more likely that Mac believed that I Would go along with him because I will be lynched. And no one wants to be lynched. I think he saw it as an opportunity to lynch a power role.

[Near]

Mac, do you think i am a scum?
what do you think about my claiming vanilla? wouldn't a scum at least claim a doctor?
from 0 to 100, how scummy am i to you?

[Near]

convince me why u guys think coron is a scum. i will take the next 5 minutes re-reading coron's claim and the following responses regarding it.

[Near]

I re-read Coron's claim, and I don't find it suspicious.
But i do agree with Guardian's post 601. I think townies have little to gain from claiming beside the fact that he will get a protection from a doctor if there is one.
but I don't think scums have a lot to gain from claiming tracker either. especially since if there is a cop, it may contradict coron's claim and make him look scummy. trading a cop for a scum usually isn't beneficial to scum at this stage (at least i understand it)

[Near]

Coron, you think we should lynch Joudas or DBE.

I am not that off from you on DBE.

I think lynching Mac would be even better.

But a few pages ago I was so sold on Near. I then re-read, and wasn't. But now, Near seems like a very appealing lynch again. Hmpuh.

Guardian, why did you say this AFTER coron claimed then?

[Near]

I'm also in it till the end, Lets see this through!! (I will make a full claim If enough of you want to know, I just figured not waving my flag around would be a good idea, but I assure you I am very pro-town)

only claim if you are a cop or some kind of investigative role. otherwise, don't.

[Near]

Coron, you think we should lynch Joudas or DBE.

he thought this

I am not that off from you on DBE.

at that time I thought this.

I think lynching Mac would be even better.

at that timne I thought this.

But a few pages ago I was so sold on Near. I then re-read, and wasn't. But now, Near seems like a very appealing lynch again. Hmpuh.

at that time I thought this.

Guardian, why did you say this AFTER coron claimed then?

that post reflected my thoughts at that time.

that post doesn't mention coron at all, btw; those thoughts arent indicative of me thinking coron was town.

Guardian, my question was, why did you find DBE and Mac suspicious after Coron has claimed tracker? Did you at the time not think Coron was an obvious scum? WHy are you pushing for him right now? Before he and others can respond?

[Near]

Near, trust me, and vote Coron temporarily.

You can unvote him in 15 minutes, and find me really suspect if I don't explain why I had you do this.

I think I see why you are doing this.

Unvote

Vote Coron

[Near]

anyway, i'm off to sleep now. Good bye coron

[Near]

Wow. OK. I was wrong when I said I think I knew what you were trying to do, Guardian. I thought you wanted to see if Coron comes back and post aka he was lurking all this time. But now I am more convinced that you are right and Coron is indeed scum.

Still, if what I am assuming is right, and I am pretty sure scums would see things the same way, why did you not suspect Coron immediately after he claimed tracker?

[Near]

EBWOP, Alright by that vote I am going to say I am even less suspect of Near.

WHy?? I thought it would definitely make me more suspicious.

[Near]

Guardian, if you are a cop, I would like you to claim. I am saying this because scums would definitely think you are a cop. Hoping that they are stupid is taking as much chance as hoping that doctor is stupid and won't protect you tomorrow night.

[Near]

Coron scum implies Near, Mac, DBE town, to me, by the way, if I die.

Not a sure thing, but smething like Near = 70% town, Mac = 85% town, DBE = 90% town.

Guardian is 100% town obvobv.

MBF could easily have been making a protest vote that was really him distancing and now it helped lynch his scum buddy ^_^.

Oh man, suspense.

If coron is indeed a tracker, i believe all 3 of you will be lynched. Possibly me as well. But I have more excuse because I was actually not sold on Coron being a scum until I suspected that you were the cop

[Near]

@ Near

I suspected Coron then (when he claimed), but wasn't sold on you Near, and Figured his whole plan was to split the vote enough he could convince a bandwagon on the middle man (me in this case)

and Actually as Naive as It may look Your voting for him makes you look less suspicious in my mind, unless you are indeed his scum buddy (and obviously) aren't asleep yet, I just think you are trying to hard if you are actually a scum. I think you are townie as you claim, and If I am wrong...well then... well played.

@Mac LOL yeah... we will def be crucified but I think its worth the risk Coron is Def the most prominent suspect/.

I said I was going to sleep because if indeed Coron was lurking, it would provide more motivation for him to come out and post.

I still am not convinced AT ALL that coron is a scum. I am not sure what you guys are looking at. THE ONLY REASON that i am voting coron is because Guardian is implying that he is the cop.

[Near]

Here's the current vote count:

Near (2): SingingLibraian, Joudas
DarlaBlueEyez (3): Yos, Coron, Dasquian
Dasquian (0)
Guardian (1): PyroDwarf
Coron (5): MBF, Guardian, Near, DarlaBlueEyez, Macvenger
Not voting: EG

[Near]

Unvote

Guardian, unless you are claiming cop, there is no way I am voting for Coron.
DarlaBlueEyez, I am somewhat convinced that you are a townie. I'd advise you to vote me unless Guardian claims cop.

Vote: Near

[Near]

EBWOP lol ok Now I am baffled, You vote Yourself?

Now I am thinking Coron IS your scum buddy OR you are right and Guardian is scum and I am a very confused person LOL. This is too much thinking for nearly 3am.

Given from my perspective: I am a vanilla townie.

Coron has claimed a power role. I am not at all convinced he is a scum. I found it very odd that Macvenger and Guardian were pushing for his lynch. I thought I understood why Guardian found Coron scummy. It was because I thought he was a scum.

Now, I am having second thoughts about Guardian. He can either be a very confused vanilla townie. Or he can be a scum. Throughout day 1 he has gained enough "credentials" of being a confused vanilla townie. He has pretty much accused everyone single one of them. Each time he was so confused and said "just trust me. i know i am right" at one point he said the same about Dasquian. Unless he claims cop, he may try to get away with lynching a real tracker. This would be horrible for town.

[Near]

EDWOP:

Coron has claimed a power role. I am not at all convinced he is a scum. I found it very odd that Macvenger and Guardian were pushing for his lynch. I thought I understood why Guardian found Coron scummy. It was because I thought he was a cop.

[Near]

There are basically 3 possibilities here, in no particular order.

1) Near and Coron are both town, and probably Guardian is scum trying to get us to lynch a tracker.
2) Near and Coron are both scum.
3) Near is town believing Coron's claim, but is wrong and Coron is scum.

There's almost no reason to lynch Near over Coron at this point, since if Coron is town Near essentially has to be. So, if we believe Coron... we need to figure out how to do something else.

I personally distrust Coron based on scummy stuff I saw long before his claim - logic I considered anti-town and such that I pointed out in the thread at the time.

I think you can exclude 2) unless for some reason you think Coron has some kind of power role (like godfather) that I don't have. Even if this were true, once I get lynched and turn scum, it would definitely make it look like Coron is my scumbuddy. There is no way a scum would sacrifice himself to save godfather for one day, who will most likely get lynched on day 2 anyway.

[Near]

I don't mind lynching Guardian, but I have a feeling that there is a very good chance that he's a confused vanilla townie. Remember when he "CLAIMED" that he knew dasquian was a scum and we should just listen to him ?

[Near]

I believe 4) is most likely. Not sure which one is more likely between 1) and 3). Probability of 2) mentioned by Macvenger is 0 unless i am stupid scum.

[Near]

Guardian, do you think Coron is scum based on what he said? or based on your alignment?

[Near]

We should lynch Dasquian. We have 4 now. Which is enough to lynch him if we were to all vote against him.

[Near]

I'm confused.

I'm town; obviously me being town plays a part in my underlying assumptions.

Were I scum, my case for Coron being scum would not hold.

?

By the way: any last minute moves (literally in the last 3 minutes) will likely result in a no lynch or mislynch. If you want to do something, decide now.

What we should do is ride out the Coron lynch and lynch him.

I am definitely against Coron lynch now. I say we find someone else who hasn't claimed yet. Macvenger, we can pick anyone else other than 4 of us here. I am hoping by now you should know i am town. so let's lynch someone else who hasnt claimed power role

[Near]

we are a moody bunch arent we?

lol,

7 minutes and counting we need decisive action here.

DBE, I strongly recommend you to lynch me unless we decide to lynch another town who hasn't claimed a power role. i am just vanilla. coron is very likely to be a tracker. the fact that macvenger, who i find scummy and is defending dasquian to the end, is FOR coron lynch reinforces my belief that coron is in fact telling the truth.

[Near]

we are a moody bunch arent we?

lol,

7 minutes and counting we need decisive action here.

DBE, I strongly recommend you to lynch me unless we decide to lynch another town who hasn't claimed a power role. i am just vanilla. coron is very likely to be a tracker. the fact that macvenger, who i find scummy and is defending dasquian to the end, is FOR coron lynch reinforces my belief that coron is in fact telling the truth.

actually, no lynch is better than lynching me.
i'd strongly recommend you unvote and keep it that way.
i have a feeling macvagner will come arund and vote for me once u unvote coron.

[Near]

Sorry, at this point, we have to ensure a lynch. Pressuring anyone else risks them claiming a power-role with too little time to get a turnaround. This means we basically have to stay the course and lynch Near.

Guardian is a good player, he

knows

this, and his attack on Yos2 was exactly the same one as the one I got from him earlier. He's on tomorrow's list, I can assure you.

Not sure why mike is going for the tracker, either.

as we would have suspected, dasquian comes back RIGHT BEFORE TE Deadline. he also has been reading 3+ pages of post. lurking anyone?

i will prob die. lynch dasquian and macvenger.

[Near]

deadline. coron is dead. if he is a tracker, then i will prob die.

Oops, missed a page and a half of posting.

Uh, you missed a lot more than that, Das.

macvenger and dasquian scumbuddies. in the long shot, they are masons

[Near]

Wow. I didn't die. Usually it's to scum's advantage to NK a confirmed townie, obviously. I wonder why Evilgorillaz was chosen. He wasn't very active in this game. Perhaps scums are among ones who didn't get much suspicions Day 1 and wanted to keep it that way.

Anyway, if I were to choose between Macvanger and Guardian, Macvanger is WAY more scummy. Guardian's style of play is more volatile, which is, if he's a townie, an euphemism for confused. As we know, there were multiple times during Day 1 when he expressed his certainity for one of the players being scum. I think either he's a scum who has built up his "volatile" character just to get away with something like lynching power role near the deadline OR he's a confused townie who cares more about getting praises from the town for finding a rare scum by lynching a player who has claimed a power role than winning this game. Honestly, I think the latter is more likely.

Macvenger on the other hand, is more stable. His posts are constructive, and although I disagree with most things he said about me in an attempt to get me lynched, I don't think he's the type that would waiver so easily by Guardian's evidence-lacking "let's kill Coron because he's scum. i know it" argument.

Unvote

Vote Macvenger

[Near]

MBF, lynch macvenger. What do you think?

[Near]

MBF, lynch macvenger. What do you think?

That's coming strait out of right field, isn't it? Where'd this come from?

My post 737.

[Near]

DBE, here's a question for you.
You claimed watcher. If this is true, wouldn't you have thought that Coron's claim of tracker goes pretty well with your alignment? Tracker is a rather rare power role, as is a watcher (as I understand it). Two not-so-common, less powerful investigative roles together make up for a lack of a cop (I am assuming this). Seems like it would be pretty natural to posit something like this.

[Near]

I want to repeat what I said in post 737. I think Mac is a better lynch than Guardian. Guardian has shown symptoms of being an confused, psychotic townie who "knows" he's right. While Guardian could have done this in order to manipulate the town for thinking what I am thinking, it makes not much sense for Macvenger to go along with Guardian's less than convincing argument to lynch a claimed power role.