Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't get MOS reasons for 'clearing' Phoebus. He says Phoebus has played differently in other games when he's scum or town... We aren't saying Phoebus is scummy because of his difference in playstyle compared to his other games.

Also, MOS sounds like he's accusing random people. Again, giving a crap reason, 'gut'.

I went back as promised. I think bird and Phoebus are currently tied... both are unhelpful, the only thing is I don't like Phoebus's responses too.

Then why are you saying Phoebus is scummy, if not because his playstyle is wierd?

"gut" is NOT a crap reason. Gut is not a reason at all. It is merely an announcement that you don't have hard factual reasons for someone to be scum, but you still have this feeling that they are probably scum, so instead of searching for crap reasons to justify it, you admit it by saying it's a gut feeling, because

that's what it really is

. It's not a crap reason at all.

[petroleumjelly]

Oh, thank goodness, at least I have three more days to think about this. I'm pretty busy tonight, so I can't post much...

MoS, could you please explain what makes you think Phoebus is town? I don't recall ever having played with Phoebus, and I frankly cannot set aside time to look over all of his games to determine his 'normal playstyle'. I only vaguely recall one game I have read with him in it (Gotham City) where he was generally unhelpful (until it came time to lynch the unnightkillable townie), and pressed people almost primarily on 'scum-tells'. He was scum in that game, and I am really not seeing what differentiates his play in this game from that game (granted, I have not read Gotham City for quite a while, so my memory may be skewed).

My main bone with Phoebus is that his "gut votes" just happened to be done while hopping on the largest bandwagons. Gut votes, in my experience, are often used to strike out in an odd direction (such as, if I were to vote somebody who has not been under much suspicion [say, Thok] on the basis of 'gut'). Gut votes which simply add to somebody who has already been suspicious (and against people who

already

have cases presented against them) do not sit with me, especially when the same person does it on

four people

. I am more than willing to consider what you are saying, but I am going to need more basis than "I will regret it" and "he is always unhelpful" (severely paraphrased).

[spectrumvoid]

I don't get MOS reasons for 'clearing' Phoebus. He says Phoebus has played differently in other games when he's scum or town... We aren't saying Phoebus is scummy because of

his difference in playstyle compared to his other games.

Then why are you saying Phoebus is scummy, if not because his playstyle is wierd?

I'm saying he isn't scummy due to his DIFFERENCE in playstyle compared to other games (in response to what you said about his playing differently in other games), I'm saying he looks scummy due to his style in THIS ONE. With that said, I don't even know if he's unhelpfulness etc. is a playstyle... I read it as a scum-tell

I stand by point that 'gut' is a bad reason. You should have good reasons for voting someone. If it's just a feeling thing, you should explain what gives you the feeling. Also what PJ said, Phoebus's gut just so happened to point him to the wagon. In this case, gut sounds like an excuse to vote.

[Thok]

I will say that MOS's actions don't really make sense to me if both MOS and Phoebus are scum together (I think MOS would let Phoebus hang out to dry in that scenario). MOS's play fits best with me if Phoebus is protown and MOS is scum (in which case MOS is buddying up with somebody he knows in protown but is likely to be lynched anyways), although I could see the alternatives being possible.

@PJ-I played with Phoebus in Mini's 205 and 232 where he was protown both times. I remember him being more active the early part of 232, but then being a lot more lurky/disinterested at the end of 232. I've suppressed memories of mini 205, so you'd need to read that one on your own.

That said, this close to deadline I should clean up my votes to reflect who I think would be the best/most useful execution, so I will

unvote pablito, bird, Dead Rimikaru and Nightson

, leaving Vaughn and Ameliaslay on my set of votes, and then add a

vote MOS

, given his recent activities.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I stand by point that 'gut' is a bad reason. You should have good reasons for voting someone.

I'm not voting anyone, am I?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh, thank goodness, at least I have three more days to think about this. I'm pretty busy tonight, so I can't post much...

MoS, could you please explain what makes you think Phoebus is town? I don't recall ever having played with Phoebus, and I frankly cannot set aside time to look over all of his games to determine his 'normal playstyle'. I only vaguely recall one game I have read with him in it (Gotham City) where he was generally unhelpful (until it came time to lynch the unnightkillable townie), and pressed people almost primarily on 'scum-tells'. He was scum in that game, and I am really not seeing what differentiates his play in this game from that game (granted, I have not read Gotham City for quite a while, so my memory may be skewed).

My main bone with Phoebus is that his "gut votes" just happened to be done while hopping on the largest bandwagons. Gut votes, in my experience, are often used to strike out in an odd direction (such as, if I were to vote somebody who has not been under much suspicion [say, Thok] on the basis of 'gut'). Gut votes which simply add to somebody who has already been suspicious (and against people who

already

have cases presented against them) do not sit with me, especially when the same person does it on

four people

. I am more than willing to consider what you are saying, but I am going to need more basis than "I will regret it" and "he is always unhelpful" (severely paraphrased).

I think his play is this game is generally different from his play as both scum and town. By itself, i think that his play shows that he's a protown player who doesn't particularly want to think much on Day 1, but came into the game knowing the kind of responses he'd get to that kind of play. That's what I've read out of his responses.

Also, even Thok said Phoebus is probably protown, so you shouldn't execute him.

[spectrumvoid]

Why 'even Thok'?

Sorry about that, I meant to say you need good reasons for accusing someone. (My defence: vote counts are so confusing this game... I went by tone of posts instead of vote numbers )

Well, yes, his play could be different. But different play does not = scum or = town, it's just a matter of playstyle, not alignment.

[CrashTextDummie]

I've skimmed through the thread (long 12 hours, I know...), and the most scummy person on the LoE is bird1111. He has been under fire for a long time, yet he never felt the need to really respond to the accusations against him. Scum shouldn't be allowed to do this just because they can't be pressured via bandwagons, and therefore I think that our mighty king should present him with an ultimatum.

Pablito has confused me entirely with his play, enough so that I don't think he should be killed anymore.

Unvote: pablito

Another person who stood out to me during my quick reread is ubertimmy. Just check out his isolated posts and you'll see what's wrong with him. If we can't get it done today, I would like to see some pressure on him tomorrow.

Vote: ubertimmy

I'll try to do a propper and thorough readthrough and will post a longish post before the deadline hits.

[Glork]

Unvote Everyone

Back a little earlier than expected. Re-read coming in the next couple of hours.

[Nightson]

Pablito has confused me entirely with his play, enough so that I don't think he should be killed anymore.

Unvote: pablito

Being confusing = protown?

[Yosarian2]

I'm not voting anyone, am I?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not voting anyone, am I?

Hey, his wording, not mine

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why 'even Thok'?

Sorry about that, I meant to say you need good reasons for accusing someone. (My defence: vote counts are so confusing this game... I went by tone of posts instead of vote numbers )

Well, yes, his play could be different. But different play does not = scum or = town, it's just a matter of playstyle, not alignment.

That's exactly my point. the fact that he's playing differently does not in and of itself point towards a particular alignment, but if you look at the particular playstyle he's using, while it may not be optimal protown play, there are earmarks here and there that point to him being protown, as I've already pointed out.

[Thok]

Why 'even Thok'?

Sorry about that, I meant to say you need good reasons for accusing someone. (My defence: vote counts are so confusing this game... I went by tone of posts instead of vote numbers )

Well, yes, his play could be different. But different play does not = scum or = town, it's just a matter of playstyle, not alignment.

That's exactly my point. the fact that he's playing differently does not in and of itself point towards a particular alignment, but if you look at the particular playstyle he's using, while it may not be optimal protown play, there are earmarks here and there that point to him being protown, as I've already pointed out.

I didn't say that Phoebus's play suggests that he is protown; I said that the interaction of his play with yours suggests that it's not the case that both of you are scum. I am not ready yet to rule out the case that your scumdar is just off.

[Thok]

EBWODP "I am not ready yet to rule out the case where you are a townie, and that your scumdar is just off".

[Yosarian2]

That's exactly my point. the fact that he's playing differently does not in and of itself point towards a particular alignment, but if you look at the particular playstyle he's using, while it may not be optimal protown play, there are earmarks here and there that point to him being protown, as I've already pointed out.

Could you be a little more clear on that? What has he done, exactally, that makes you think he's pro-town?

[MrBuddyLee]

People acting weird:

pablito
MoS
Phoebus

[pablito]

I agree with MBL on that.

Also, more pressure on UberTimmy is good. I've been saying that for weeks now, glad to see someone finally see what I'd been saying.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why 'even Thok'?

Sorry about that, I meant to say you need good reasons for accusing someone. (My defence: vote counts are so confusing this game... I went by tone of posts instead of vote numbers )

Well, yes, his play could be different. But different play does not = scum or = town, it's just a matter of playstyle, not alignment.

That's exactly my point. the fact that he's playing differently does not in and of itself point towards a particular alignment, but if you look at the particular playstyle he's using, while it may not be optimal protown play, there are earmarks here and there that point to him being protown, as I've already pointed out.

I didn't say that Phoebus's play suggests that he is protown; I said that the interaction of his play with yours suggests that it's not the case that both of you are scum. I am not ready yet to rule out the case that your scumdar is just off.

Then why are you voting me, and not him? Clearly you are more inclined to believe I'm scum and he's town than vice versa.

[Glork]

Okay, okay, so I ended up going out with some friends and didn't get around to posting. I super-duper promise that I'll post Tuesday sometime. Before noon. I'm really sorry. I've just let this game slip and I hate it.

[Thok]

Whatever.

unvote MOS, unvote Amelislay, confirm vote Vaughn

Vaughn has made two posts in this game since I proclaimed that I wanted him executed (for his attack on PJ and his response to my defense), one asking me to explain why I wanted him dead and one saying "I'll catch up to this game", which was three days ago at the beginning of a weekend. He has also posted in Leekspin and Committee in that interval.

I am not willing to put up with Vaughn lurking in this game.

[spectrumvoid]

I don't like lurking too, but why pick on one when so many people are lurking too?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because he also has a personal issue with Vaughn, since he had already asked for him to be executed.

[pablito]

I don't like the Vaughn lurking, but I don't find him scummy.

I'm currently buying the MoS argument regarding Phoebus.
I still don't see Phoebus as being more scummy than frustrating.

vote: Rosso Carne

for all the lurkers and non-posters I find his case the most compelling. He missed the original signup deadline and now that he's in the game, there's basically nothing of substance from him. I would've expected more passion from him in this specific game.

[Glork]

Assorted thoughts...

Rikimaru looks like a townie to me. Pablito listed possible suspicions of Riki in Post 89, but I basically disagree with him completely. I think that Riki's comment "I don't get it, are they distancing?" looks like curious, mildly-confused townie. Not scumbag planting the seeds of our demise.

I still don't know what to think of Pablito's defense of me. If he turns up town, I want him to explain this in postgame, because I really don't understand it.

Fritzler's pro-town, I think. And Cardboardbox strikes me as a pro-town newbie.

I really wanna vote MBL, but I don't think he's scum. I think he's acting like an idiot, and acting somewhat scummy... but I don't think he's scum. For now.

MoS is also a fucking moron. I don't like the "not voting" thing one bit. The "then read my posts and don't skim looking for votes" bit is bullshit. Votes, FoSes, IGMEOYs, and general suspicions are usually seen as different levels of suspicion. You should be making use of, at the very least, the first and the last. FoS/IGMEOY is optional, but they're pretty widely used and understood.

I wonder if Fritz's attacks on CrashTextDummie have some merit... I need to look into this later.

Thok doesn't sit well with me. I like Yos so far. The more I read, the less I like MoS's "I'm not going to vote" idea.

Is it just me or is the middle line of Post 199 teh ubar-scummy?

PJ's pro-town. End of story.

Pooky made a big ol' case against me in Post 211. I responded to this case in Post 218. To my knowledge, Pooky never responded to my rebuttal. That don't sit well with me.

Vote: Pooky

at least until I get a follow-up from him. I don't like when people go out of their way to make a case against someone and then just drop that case completely.

Post 225 just irritates me. I was being a bit immature (though I maintain that I meant no harm with my comments). Pablito's comment that I'm "trying to improve on [my] performance from Kingmaker the first" doesn't even apply.

:goodposting: by 'Slay.

For all the attention that bird1111 has gotten, I really don't have a reading on him either way. I just don't get anything from his posts. *Shrug*

Posts 248/249 reiterate my opinoin that MBL is being moronic. But moronic MBL usually means pro-town MBL. Usually.

Rosso's general hostility towars me doesn't surprise me (heck, his sig contains a completely unprovoked "glork sucks" quote), but I don't really like it. What I *do* find suspicious, though, is Post 277. I've already stated why I think Pooky may be scum. The fact that Rosso is quoting an overstated and completely-abandoned case with a mere ":goodposting:" makes me wonder. I'll

Vote: Rosso Carne

for good measure. Post 278 isn't very reassuring. "PJ is scum, no doubt about it"? I believe there is a great deal of doubt surrounding PJ's alignment.

I

really

don't like Post 289. I can't really explain why.

IGMEOY: Thok

.

In response to MBL's Post 317: Did you ever read Graduation Mafia? Rosso acted like a freaking moron in that game, and he was scum then. I think he's just a moron in general.

Don't like Rosso's excuse in Post 322. I will also note that his promise to elaborate went completely unfulfilled.

Confirm Vote: Rosso

The only person on PJ's initial LoE that I really advocate lynching today would be ChannelDelibird. Pablito is still an enigma to me, and I'm irritated with Phoebus' attitude. And as I said before, I just don't see the birdwagon.

Vote: CrashTextDummie

. Placeholder vote. I'm thinking Fritz may have found something, and I want to investigate what that something is.

Post 380 looks so laaaaazy!

FoS: Pablito

. I'm feeling a little better about his place on the LoE.

I pretty much agree with Post 398 completely. Finally MBL doesn't act like a lazy goof and his suspicions make sense. They pretty much parallel how I feel.

*SMACK* MoS for Post 405. For someone who's justifying his not-voting in part by telling people to read the entire game/thread carefully, he's not doing a very good job of it himself.


That's about it.



I'd like to see an execution out of one of the following: ChannelDelibird, Pooky, Rosso, Pablito, CrashTextDummie.