Kingmaker II-Game Over

[petroleumjelly]

Gah! What kind of smart-alec would make me King on Day One in this game?! Seriously: not only is that cruel and unusual punishment for

me

, but it's cruel and unusual punishment for the

town

.

In any case! I will do my best to be a good King. So let's catch us some scum.

First, though, I guess I get to (or have to) "direct" discussion here a little bit, and as it happens, there were a few things I say ought to be discussed. I would like input from everybody: even if you share an opinion with somebody else,

do not

simply quote them: I want to see your own thoughts in your own words.

Discussion Topic #1

:

Talking of discussion, are people happy with the "List of Execution" system that was used in the last game?

That's a

really

weird thing for me to think about, actually, since I was scum in the original Kingmaker game. The fact is, I spent pretty much an entire day trying to think of a system so that scum could manipulate the voting to

some

degree, while trying to present such an idea so that it would sound pro-town. And that system was the best idea I could think up.

The system itself, I came to realize, is a double-edged sword. It influences the potential of manipulation by scum, yes, but it

also

allows the town to have more influence on the King's choice of execution, which should (theoretically) keep the town's interest level in the game. Nevertheless, I have yet to think of a

better

system, so go figure.

I agree with Thok's comment that the town should not be able to

force

a King's execution choice. If a King strays from public opinion, they had better have a good reason for doing so (since doing such a thing would guarantee that that King would be looked at with a careful eye immediately afterwards). I only pushed that agenda last game because I happened to be scum, so I wanted to be sure that in the case the scum could secure a majority (or a fixed percentage of votes) on a townie, we could force the King to execute them. I frankly will not listen to arguments in favor of such a policy, because I flat out disagree with it.

In all reality, I think every King will simply act as they see fit, but I will restrain myself to a few principles:

1.) I will be using a List of Execution (LoE)
2.) I will only execute persons while they are on my LoE, and I will give them 48 hours notice if I am planning on Executing them, from which time they may make final pleas, and the town (obviously) should chip in their opinion.
3.) A person may be added to the LoE in two ways:
--> A.) My own discretion
--> B.) If somebody reaches a majority of votes (which should encourage people to vote!)
4.) A person may be dropped from the LoE in only one way, which is my own discretion. If the town disagrees with one of my choices for the List, then they are probably not seeing the same case as I am, and should either convince me to change my opinion or deal with it.
5.) I will be voting people in addition to adding people to the LoE. Simply because I think somebody is suspicious doesn't mean I will put them automatically on the List, since I still like being able to use my vote to poke at people.

Discussion Topic(s) #2A-D

:

Although it shouldn't be very much of an issue this game, here are some things I don't want to see if you can avoid them (I'm grouping them as one topic for efficiency's sake):

A.) "I do not agree with the choice for King"; or "I heartily agree with the choice for King"; or "given the choice for King, I think it is more/less likely that the Kingmaker is X". Believe it or not, when I was scum last game, this helped me narrow down the Kingmaker down to a very short list of people. I might as well make things hard for scum this game, since I at least know what they'll probably be looking for come night-time. Don't give scum information to work with if you can help it.

B.) Putting somebody on the LoE does not mean I am going to automatically execute you: what it

means

is that I (or the town) find you suspicious, so you need to

defend

yourself, or that you are suspicious despite an attempt at defense. DO NOT claim prematurely. If you need to claim anything (at least for today), I will be the first person to tell you to do so with my 48-hour rule.

C.) "I don't need to vote because my vote doesn't matter anyways." I

hate

this. Hate, hate, hate. Why would you sign up for a game if you aren't going to

play

? Votes are an essential tool in scum-hunting: refusing to use that tool is

not

helping the town. I want everybody participating and voting, no questions asked.

D.) There is a point when I stop listening to people's suspicions if they have their vote on

too many

people, because this makes it difficult for me to assess who somebody is most/actually suspicious of. Try to keep your collective number of votes at any one time to around four or less (possibly five, but all five of your votes in that situation should be fairly serious).

Discussion Topic #3

:

Is it worthwhile to speculate on the size of the scum group?

This doesn't need as much discussion, but I don't think there's any harm. We had 19 players in the original game with 5 scum, and this game we have 24 players. The original game had a few power roles (2 confirmed innocent Masons, 2 Cops), where as this game we have none (although we

may

have a Hero this game). I would speculate on a 5-6 person scum-group. The lack of the confirmable roles (excepting for the Hero, and a Kingmaker claim) makes it

possible

we're dealing with a 5 person scum group, but I would rather err on the side of caution and simply assume this game has 6 scum.

*****

My very early suspicions (not in order of scumminess, just as they occur to me):

1.) Bird1111. He voted Glork for voting me (took it as a joke), but then unvoted Glork to vote for Pablito for protecting Glork, and then upon realizing he had multiple votes, voted Glork again (which makes me believe the vote was not really a joke to start with). I just don't really like the progression of these votes, I guess, hard to be more concrete right now.

2.) Pablito. Obvious reasons: protecting Glork without a game-based reason to do so, but simply on a meta-game based reason. I really dislike putting trust into people for no discernable reason other than "they're a good player", especially since good players can be scum, too. You can trust I would not execute Glork without a

really

good reason to do so, so being overly protective of him only make me think he is trying to be buddy-buddy (which, if true, has backfired already, hehe).

However, I

have

seen quite a few pro-town players who hold and advocate such philosophies (I believe I have said similar things in other games, although I am not recalling off-hand if I have tendency to say them as town or as scum), so although I think it is noteworthy, it is not necessarily voteworthy.

3.) I'm getting a slight ping from MBL. I don't care if he is still advocating his stupid "I'll purposely look a little scummy so I don't get night-killed" strategy, because it really doesn't help him or the town. Glork already hit my thoughts: MBL is essentially making it easier for scum to possibly narrow down potential Kingmakers. Even if his remarks are innocent, it is more than easy to have somebody respond to such statements, and accidentally let slip they are less or more likely to be the Kingmaker.

4.) Vaughn, for Post 31, which not only buddies with Glork, but sets himself up for randomly jumping on bandwagons in the near future.

Vote: Bird111, MrBuddyLee, Vaughn

.

[cardb0ardb0x]

Here are some of my thoughts.

1) It’s possible that both pablito and glork are scum. The idea is that pablito is the over-eager mafia, trying to support his pal. Glork knows how to play, and therefore doesn’t want the obvious attention and association, whether he is scum or not.

Therefore,

Vote: Pablito

2) MrBuddyLee has been voting for a lot of people with little or no reasoning. In the same vein, he has only asked for other people’s opinions (both yos’s and everyone’s in general) rather than expressing his own. This would also make sense if mrbuddylee, pablito, and glork were all mafia, because MBL also defended glork in a post.

Therefore,

Vote: MrBuddyLee

3) ShadowLurker has similarly been voting with little to no explanation, but I just kind of want to bring it up, it’s not that big an issue. Specifically, he's voted for me, pablito, pooky, and twomz. The one where he votes for me doesn’t really count because it was a standard random vote in his first post, but whatever.

I’m not giving him a vote, though.

4) Also, I’m just generally suspicious of anyone who uses flattery. I forget who did it though.

So, overall, I would suggest executing pablito, and if he is confirmed scum (is their role revealed when they are killed?) i guess glork would be next. Obviously I'm not completely sure about any of them.

[Yosarian2]

And now begins my masterful plan of finally playing through an entire game without voting. Unless I become king, lol.

vote:MOS

Not acceptable.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, have you been drinking today? You're a bit more chatty/humorous than normal.

Heh...neah, I was just bored yesterday.

[MrBuddyLee]

Dear Glork and PJ,

Why are you "worried" about protecting the Kingmaker at this point? They're a vanilla townie who passes the role of Kingmaker on to another vanilla townie upon their death. What makes the vanilla townie who selected PJ as king any more worth saving from nightkill than the next vanilla townie down the line? PARTICULARLY this early in the game... Your tears for the lurking Kingmaker taste crocodile-flavored to me and thus your accusations reek of an attempt to cast wrongful aspersions upon a player with a better-than-average record of hunting scum.

Dear PJ,

Why are you "outing" a strategy of mine which has proven helpful in nailing scum but which doesn't really work once it's broadcast to the members of a game?

Dear cbox,

MrBuddyLee has been

voting for a lot of people with little or no reasoning

. In the same vein,

he has only asked for other people’s opinions

(both yos’s and everyone’s in general) rather than expressing his own.

This would also make sense if mrbuddylee, pablito, and glork were all mafia

, because

MBL also defended glork in a post.

1) I haven't voted for anyone yet, so why do you not only say I have, but insinuate my reasons for the votes I haven't cast are suspect? Town is accurate with their statements because they don't want to lead people astray in the hunt for scum. Your inaccurate statement is a significant scumtell.
2) You state I defended Glork in a post, which I haven't either. The closest I came to "defending" Glork was making a tongue-in-cheek comment about his performance last game, which implies nothing whatsoever about his alignment in this game. Your misrepresentation of my actions, AGAIN, is easily viewed as an attempt to lead town astray and away from appropriate lynch targets.
3) You state that I've only asked for other people's opinions instead of expressing my own. This is a blatant lie. In my two posts thus far I've made four observations, three of which are distinct. I've asked Yos for his opinions on an issue, and asked PJ half-jokingly to come up with a list of questions for all 24 players of the game. You say I've expressed no opinions, I've given three (five if you count each allegation of scumminess {CDB, timmy, pab} separately). You say I've only asked for others' opinions, I've only done that once. The factual planets are aligned 5-1 against your lying, scummy observation.
4) You posit that three players, {MBL, Glork, pablito} are scum together, which is akin to the primary observation I made in the two posts you found scummy. And your logic tying the three together is faulty or nonexistent. I didn't defend Glork, and you give no reason whatsoever for plopping pablito into your hypothetical Axis of Ebil. You imply "(your first 3 accusations) would make sense if {a,b,c} are scum together", but your conclusion in no way whatsoever logically follows from your reasons.

It's amazing that you managed to stuff so many false/illogical statements into your little bitty 58-word shepherd's pie of an accusation against me there. NOW is when I'll ask the entire town for their opinions for the first time.

What does everyone think of the bearer of such a gross bill of false goods? Simply careless as hell, or scum hunting baby bunnies with a shotgun?

vote: cardb0ardb0x

[MrBuddyLee]

er...

ShadowLurker has similarly been voting with little to no explanation, but I just kind of want to bring it up, it’s not that big an issue...
I’m not giving him a vote, though.

Why not? It's not like a vote is particularly dangerous in this game, and at least your observations on him are accurate, unlike your observations of me... the dissonance reeks of either protection of a scumpartner or of fake protection in an attempt to incriminate town, and giuven the thoroughness of your logic thus far I'd easier suspect the former.

So, overall, I would suggest executing pablito, and if he is confirmed scum (is their role revealed when they are killed?) i guess glork would be next. Obviously I'm not completely sure about any of them.

Why would you suggest executing pablito when a) the game's nascent and b) you're not really sure? And why would you attempt to set up a 1-2 pablito-Glork punch so blatantly, knowing full well that pab could be scum cozying up to town to make them look bad?

[Glork]

Dear Glork and PJ,

Why are you "worried" about protecting the Kingmaker at this point? They're a vanilla townie who passes the role of Kingmaker on to another vanilla townie upon their death. What makes the vanilla townie who selected PJ as king any more worth saving from nightkill than the next vanilla townie down the line? PARTICULARLY this early in the game... Your tears for the lurking Kingmaker taste crocodile-flavored to me and thus your accusations reek of an attempt to cast wrongful aspersions upon a player with a better-than-average record of hunting scum.

You expect me to answer this? You expect me to CONTRIBUTE, after Pablito tried to throw the Burden of Spectacular Play on me? (Oooh, I like that one... I might have to start using it more often in the future.)

What do you expect me to say? That the identity of the Kingmaker should be protected so as not to condemn specific people during the course of the game? That if we narrow or out the Kingmaker and enable the Scum to hit him, then they can hide behind those nightkill choices, and not give us the inherent information of an original nightkill choice?

Because I'm not saying any of that. Nope. No way, sir.










Hey, PJ. Laces out. I gots my eyeballs on you, buddy boy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@PJ, #2C) Deal with it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

why r scum obligated to hit the Kingmaker again?

If they wanted to deny us information they could use a bloody dartboard.

[Glork]

If they wanted to deny us information they could use a bloody dartboard.

BRILLIANT!!


Note to self: Buy a dartboard.

[Twomz]

Wow, we're getting off to a good start. All the pointing of fingers back and forth may be paranoia, distancing, or just accusations. I'm going to watch the participants closer to judge which side their on, but, we can't really tell which ones are scum and which ones are town right now (unless, one like slips badly or something).

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like one thing I don't get, is that if we wanted a confirmed innocent to make the choice everytime, wouldn't we just have the KingMaker claim and direct the king? even if they kill the KMer, it's not like we're going to lose anything since we'd just get a new one.

And if scum counterclaim KMer, all we'd have to do is get the KMer a list of 2 people to appoint as King/Backup and the CounterClaimer a list of 2 other people to appoint and when the next day dawns we'll know which side was lying and be able to execuete accordingly.

It's not like we can run out of Kingmakers!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

way to say nothing Twomz

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

wait, watch as I do the same thing but with more brevity and wit!

wait for it now...

anytime....

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

nothing

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You see that?

True Skill right there, flawless delivery with amazing grace and wit.

Wow the crowd is still going wild.



So next time you're going to say nothing, don't waste valuable pixel space, just say it and be proud damnit. No need to hide the fact that you're brave enough to stand up to King PJ and his attackdog Glork and not willing to knuckle under to their unreasonable demands.

Last time I was caught by Islamic Terrorists in Afghanistan and they tried to pump me for information, I didn't say a bloody word, they tortured me for 3 years and didn't get a single word out of me, so the next time someone tries to browbeat you into talking, just puff your chest up and endure the stab wounds. It's not like they've got you strapped down and are slowly pulling your fingernails out with pliers while electrocueting you, I've been through that and it ain't that bad.

[Mert]

Discussion Topic #1

:Nevertheless, I have yet to think of a

better

system, so go figure.

Well clearly the main purpose should be that the King is accountable to the town without having a fall-back of "well, the town told me to". It needs to be clear that the King's decision is his or her own, but they must also accept that the town has a right to disseminate their actions and that they have a responsibility to discuss how they came to their decision on who to execute. Since we don't have any cops in this game there should be no worry about outing themselves, so I see no reason not to say "I will execute so-and-so, for the reasons x, y and z."

Hmmm, having said that, there is a risk that someone could catch scum by using a particular method and we don't necessarily want to be announcing that method so that scum can change their tactics overnight. Now I'm confused. How about we suggest that each King may operate in their own way but must give some reasons for their actions (if not final reasons for execution, should it not be appropriate) and must give everybody the opportunity to defend themselves prior to execution? Maybe we could also say that Kings must announce at the beginning of their reign that they will be using the LoE or some other system of their choosing and must explain, if asked, why they have decided to use that system?

[ShadowLurker]

Pooky scares me.

[Glork]

So next time you're going to say nothing, don't waste valuable pixel space, just say it and be proud damnit. No need to hide the fact that you're brave enough to stand up to King PJ and his attackdog Glork and not willing to knuckle under to their unreasonable demands.

How

dare

you insinuate that I am a subordinate of PJ. I've been cutting PJ's head off for six years. He's my play-toy, and he knows it.

[Glork]

And Pooky, I think you're missing the point of Twomz's posting genius. If you can spew a ton of words and not really make a point at all, you're doing GREAT. Wasting other people's time is both an art and a science. And it's one that must be constantly improved, lest our not-saying abilities fall.

"Nothing" gets the non-point across right away. If you just make a post that says, literally, "nothing," then you're not only saying nothing, you're not really saying anything at all. But if you can say

nothing

while appearing to say

something

, then you've really got it going on. People read your post, think that you're trying to say something, and then they realize that even though you've said something you've basically said nothing. Nothing at all.

[MrBuddyLee]

Wait, how did eleventy people post in the last three hours without referring to mr. box's box o' lies? That's physically unlikely and morally untenable!

I suppose one logical explanation is that the morning crew of chimps doesn't read.

[petroleumjelly]

Dear Glork and PJ,

Why are you "worried" about protecting the Kingmaker at this point? They're a vanilla townie who passes the role of Kingmaker on to another vanilla townie upon their death. What makes the vanilla townie who selected PJ as king any more worth saving from nightkill than the next vanilla townie down the line? PARTICULARLY this early in the game... Your tears for the lurking Kingmaker taste crocodile-flavored to me and thus your accusations reek of an attempt to cast wrongful aspersions upon a player with a better-than-average record of hunting scum.

That's a fair point actually: I was more thinking about the importance of the town protecting the Kingmaker from

last

game, and figuring the same principles ought to apply to this game. Still, the Kingmaker

is

a confirmed innocent (and the only one we're likely to have in the game, unless there is a failed attempt to execute the Hero), so obviating the Kingmaker seems like a silly thing to do in the first place when it is completely unneccessary for the town to know who the Kingmaker is. As others said against

me

in the original game, our priority should be to look for scum,

not

to narrow down the Kingmaker.

Dear PJ,

Why are you "outing" a strategy of mine which has proven helpful in nailing scum but which doesn't really work once it's broadcast to the members of a game?

I don't know that your

strategy

of purposely acting scummy has helped you nail scum: it's more your ability to catch scum that helps you catch scum. I doubt you acting 'purposely scummy' is not a very big factor in whether or not you get nightkilled in the first place. What

I'm

saying is that when townspeople (if you are town) purposely act scummy, it throws off

my

scumdar (and probably everybody else's), and can

distract

from finding actual scum. And of course, purposely acting scummy as town allows you to get away with acting scummy as scum. If me "outing" your strategy will get you to stop doing it, then I have no regreats. It might minimally help

you

, but it makes things much more difficult for everybody else.

***

That said, I actually agree with MBL's points on Post 58, and I am honestly surprised he is the

only

person mentioning this post at all so far.

A.) CBB latches onto the possible Glork/Pablito theory
B.) MrBuddyLee had voted for nobody, and there's nothing inherently

wrong

with asking others' opinions without giving your own (which was a false statement to begin with), although it is a little unorthodox
C.) I haven't decided what to think about the comment about Shadowlurker, but I really don't see a problem with voting multiple people (even randomly), especially early on in the game. Votes will not lynch anybody, so it does not put anybody in more danger than they otherwise were beforehand, although it likely would draw my attention to whoever is being voted.
D.) I tried to determine if the comment was made in jest, but the request to execute Pablito seems genuine. That post was only made on Page Three, and everybody hasn't even checked in yet. There's an extent to which people can be overeager, but this example I'm not exactly liking.

Unvote: MrBuddyLee, Vote: Cardb0ardb0x

.

[Twomz]

Actually, I try to say things, it's just that my reasons are usually flawed, or rely on gut feeling.

I made that post a few minutes before I went to class, I simply wrote down my thoughts about what I had read. I'm sorry if it was an "empty" post... but at least it was a post. I'd rather write 2 or 3 empty posts a day to show that i'm at least trying to participate, instead of never posting and just lurking behind the scenes. Sry if my lack of evidence or leads on Page 3 and subsequent "fluff" post was seen as offensive to you Pooky.

@ Glork: Yeah, the only problem is that whatever I say, no matter how much content (or even none at all) I put in a post, it's always read as scummy. Is some games I almost want to just stop posting, but I never do, and it usually just digs me into a deeper hole .

Now, I have an hour til my English class, I shall do a brief (nonfluff) summary of what I think is of import so far. (I hate the comp lab keyboards, the keys stick, and none of the spacebars are really anygood... i'll try to keep it short, less I kill myself before I submit this post).

1) The rules have changed. But, the main points in the change are...
- If the kingmaker dies a new one will be selected.
- The kingmaker may select the same player consecutively if there are less than 7 players.
- We may or may not have a hero, and the hero may or may not be told that he's the hero, and the mafia may or may not know if there's a hero. (:(, speculating on which parts are true is pointless, so i suppose if we're making a plan, we're going to have to make contengencies(sp?) for all the options)

2) PJ is the king.
- Much WIFOM insues on whether the kingmaker was in the last game or not.
- PJ has knowledge of how the scum functioned in the last game (as he pointed out in his first post), so, if he is protown, he'll be a strong force for the side of town.

3) PJ is continuing the List of Excecution system.
- If you want details on what he changed and how he's doing it, see his post.

4)

Well, random voting seems a bit pointless, so I'll just be content with saying hi.

No random voting for me.. i find it pointless. I'm up for a wagon though!

Yup I donaugh think I will be random voting either.. seems kinda pointless...

And now begins my masterful plan of finally playing through an entire game without voting. Unless I become king, lol.

Hi everyone. No point in random voting since the King is the only one right?

There is no reason not to random vote, or just to vote (even for large swaths (<-is that a word?) of people. I'm suspicious of all the above for trying to stay off the charts (especially MoS), i'm not sure if that's everyone, but I think it is.

5) Glork/Pablito
- I'm not sure what to take from this... buddying up, obv distancing, WIFOM, just joking around....

Vote Glork

for wanting the king dead

Ah, the Macbeth manoeuver.

LOL, not really a point, but nice zinger (sry for the belated gratz)

6) Cbox, accuses both Pab and Glork of being scum, but doesnt' vote Glork. Also falsly accused MBL (after checking over his posts, i found this to be true)... maybe he got MBL mixed up w/ someone?

7) Fritz and Phoebus are the only one's who haven't posted yet. (I don't really expect either of them to lurk, so things are looking up so far, we just have to wait for them to notice that the game's started.)

8) (yes i'll say it again) Lots of players are pointing fingers... but I can't decern which ones are scum and which are town just from that. So far several long lists of accusations against players have been formed, but the only really pressing one i've seen is MBL's assessment of Cbox... btw

UNVOTE: GLORK/PABLITO, VOTE: CBOX

(<-capped for mod). I'll decide after more information comes in whether I want to persue a case against pabs/glorky.

huggle: pooky and bmq

sry for the empty post pooks .

[ChannelDelibird]

Wow, lots of posts in a short space of time.

First off,

Vote: Cardb0ardb0x

for double standards. So your theory is that both pablito and Glork are scum, but you only vote for one of them, despite making it clear that you're aware you can vote for multiple people? Sure, maybe you're not sure they're both scum - but you should at least put some pressure on them both to test the theory.

Also,

CBB

That's going to get confusing.

[Vaughn]

Er... Wow.. that's an amazing amount of posting in that short timeframe.

Anyways, King PJ, I do beleive I shouldn't be on that list for my previous post was nothing more than introduction.

We all know that wagoning doesn't provide results in this type of game. My post should've been taking tongue-in-cheek.

However, I do like how you're running our town, but I'll return with a more productive post, come monday.