Open 122 - Near Vanilla (Game over)

[dejkha]

Is it really the "newbie card" when she

can't

give you the info you want rather than choosing not to? I don't think so...

[Rin Twisted]

@Hohum- Heh. Shame on me for playing the newbie card in post....wait, which post did I do that in again?

In any case, I am not an 'alt' or a newbie, though I am new to this site. I've played two games on wifom before it all shut down. I hate even having to bring this up, and I wouldn't if I didn't think I'd turn the game into a trainwreck by choosing to withhold the info at this point. Why? Because it shouldn't matter.

No, seriously, how does this matter? If I'm new to the game, you shouldn't cut me any slack for behavior you find scummy just because I'm new. If I'm not, you can't trust what I say about how I play as scum in other games.

And I can't trust any of you for that, either. Kmd, I don't have any interest in the information that you choose to feed me about games you've played in the past. If I wanted to meta, I'd do it myself with that little 'profile' button. I don't, though. I'll stick to what you do and say in this game.

[hewitt]

I think by providing previous scum meta games can actually help scum by avoiding the tendencies they had in those previous games and they can say "Oh yeah well look at my previous games I was scum, I'm not playing that way am I? Nope, so I'm not scum".

[ZazieR]

The 'ZazieR is watching too' votecount:

Kmd4390(2) - Empking('s alt), dejkha

ac1983fan(0)
dejkha(0)
hohum(0)
Darkcoffeejazz(0)
zwetschenwasser(1) - Mufasa
Kreriov(0)
Rin Twisted(2) - Kmd4390, zwetschenwasser
Ztife(0)
hewitt
Empking(1) - hohum
AWA(0)
Mufasa(1) - Kreriov

Not voting(6) - ac1983fan, Darkcoffeejazz, Rin Twisted, Ztife, hewitt, AWA

With 13 alive, you'll need 7 votes to lynch.
Note: Green indicates closest to lynch

[dejkha]

Shit. If I saw Emp sign up for this game, I would've /outted for it. I'll try to stick it out though, but don't be surprised if I request for a replacement.

[Kreriov]

Um, was that a joke or are you serious dejkha?

I am new to the site so have no meta here. I have played before but not for awhile so I do not really remember all the specifics other than that I have been mafia twice and won and town maybe a half dozen times and won about half of those. Both times as mafia I was a plain goon. Even though I won both times I have been mafia, I do not think it was necessarily because of my play. In one, I was the sacrificial lamb to make the Godfather look even better. In the other, the town was simply horrible in my opinion.

Please continue the discussions! I find it the whole Kmd/Rin Twisted/Ac interaction interesting.

Rin Twisted, I am not so sure posting meta shouldn't matter. How is asking people to do that in order to provoke a reaction any different than say grilling someone over a random vote or failure to random vote? If it gets discussion going, it is good!

Kmd, do you REALLY think not wanting to post meta is a scum tell?

[Kmd4390]

That doesn't make what I said any less true =/

You don't think she had anything against the idea of discussing scum meta? I find that hard to believe.

No, seriously, how does this matter? If I'm new to the game, you shouldn't cut me any slack for behavior you find scummy just because I'm new. If I'm not, you can't trust what I say about how I play as scum in other games.

And I can't trust any of you for that, either. Kmd, I don't have any interest in the information that you choose to feed me about games you've played in the past. If I wanted to meta, I'd do it myself with that little 'profile' button. I don't, though. I'll stick to what you do and say in this game.

Ok, but how does it hurt the town for you to just give us an idea how you play as scum?

I think by providing previous scum meta games can actually help scum by avoiding the tendencies they had in those previous games and they can say "Oh yeah well look at my previous games I was scum, I'm not playing that way am I? Nope, so I'm not scum".

If they did that, would you assume them town? I wouldn't. In fact, I'd probably be even more suspicious of them for trying to avoid their scum tendencies.

Rin Twisted, I am not so sure posting meta shouldn't matter. How is asking people to do that in order to provoke a reaction any different than say grilling someone over a random vote or failure to random vote? If it gets discussion going, it is good!

Kmd, do you REALLY think not wanting to post meta is a scum tell?

Yes I do. Read what you said to Rin. That is the purpose in asking for scum meta. The idea that scum won't want to do it.

[Ztife]

Well hohum, by accusing hewitt of not voting is scummy and talking about how random voting is an important part of the game, do note that in it itself is now an oxymoron because you can see the amount of discussion spun out with the help of Kmd4390 and hewitt.

Post 48: How is boring pro-town? Or does boring in this context refers to the random voting stage of the game?

In responds to rin/kmd etc. discussion, I do agree that posting scum meta from your point of view does not hurt town, though I don't see it as neccessary benefiting town in anyway.

There are already some "obvscum" votes going on, though I think its still to early in the day to tell anything yet from my point of view. Would love to hear more from those who haven't post much yet.

Random

Vote: AWA

for lurking so far and catching my attention for having an all caps name.

[Kmd4390]

Random

Vote: AWA

for lurking so far and catching my attention for having an all caps name.

Pick one. Is it a random vote or a lurker vote? It can't be both.

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Rin

- What's wrong with postng our scum metas?

[Rin Twisted]

@Everyone who's asking me why I don't like to do meta: I've already answered this, back in posts 101. My feelings haven't changed on it.

Ok, but how does it hurt the town for you to just give us an idea how you play as scum?

How do you get an idea of how I play as scum from what I choose to tell you? I don't trust a word of what your wrote in yours or any metas. Information from the very mouths you can't trust? Oh, come on. And if you're saying that the very act of me not wanting to participate in this silliness is scummy, so be it. I'm not worried about it.

[Kmd4390]

Do you think I would lie about how games went when any one person in this game could go look up any of those games?

[hohum]

Post 48: How is boring pro-town? Or does boring in this context refers to the random voting stage of the game?

Boring translates to stretching the game out. The longer a game goes on the more the balance of the game swings to town. Information is a good thing, lots of it is better. Only scum would want a short/exciting/fast paced game.

Seriously, these are all questions which can be answered by ICs in newbie games. I suggest you play in a few.

[hewitt]

Post 48: How is boring pro-town? Or does boring in this context refers to the random voting stage of the game?

Boring translates to stretching the game out. The longer a game goes on the more the balance of the game swings to town. Information is a good thing, lots of it is better. Only scum would want a short/exciting/fast paced game.quote]

Stretching a game out doesn't mean it has to be boring. If you choose to make it boring then that's your own prerogative but I'm not going to play boring I'm going to try to give out as much of my opinions as I can, scum hunt to the best of my ability, and I'm going to try to avoid posts that are meaningless to the game. Games can be fast-paced and long at the same time, everybody's just got to keep posting, keep scum hunting, and try their hardest to help the town at all times.

[ac1983fan]

Post 48: How is boring pro-town? Or does boring in this context refers to the random voting stage of the game?

Boring translates to stretching the game out. The longer a game goes on the more the balance of the game swings to town. Information is a good thing, lots of it is better. Only scum would want a short/exciting/fast paced game.

Seriously, these are all questions which can be answered by ICs in newbie games. I suggest you play in a few.

There's a difference between stretching a game out time-wise and post-wise. More posts is good, but more posts which are "I'm here" responses from prod's "Nothing much happening" help the scum. If their is very little discussion going on, the game is boring, and a lack of discussion is well-understood to be anti-town. More discussion makes the game exciting, and more discussion is good for the town. Therefore, Boring is not good for the town. Boring does not lead to information. Boring leads to lurking.

[Kreriov]

Sorry Kmd, I did not phrase that question properly. I was more interested in your thoughts on Rin's actual actions in this game, not really some philosophical position on if posting/not posting scum meta is particularly suspect behavior. The whole point is to get people to talk and evaluate them based on their actions. I was more interested in what you thought of her responses and people's reactions to them.

[Rin Twisted]

Do you think I would lie about how games went when any one person in this game could go look up any of those games?

Short answer: I expect you to be dishonest if you're scum in this game. It's not that simple, really, but that's true enough.

Okay, here we go: in your world, not wanting to meta about past games is a scumtell, right? So in that case any given game of mafia should following a simple format: someone asks for scum meta, everyone but the scum posts it, you lynch those players, game over! Since that isn't how mafia goes, there might be something wrong with your surefire strategy. How about this scenario then: someone asks for scum meta, and everyone complies. Including the scum. So what do you do with the wealth of 'information' to figure out who mafia is? Well, what information do you have, really- a series of one or two sentences about every game that every person has previously played. It's unlikely that the scum have handed you the keys to their own demise, of course, but they're also probably not going to flat out lie about how they played in case you do check up on it. So a more subtle kind of dishonesty is required. There's a far easier solution for scum to post meta about how they've been scum in other games. You post about the events in the game. That fills up words, and makes you seem honest. You use scum generalizations like 'in this game I laid low' and 'in this game I went after easy targets'. Most importantly, you also contradict yourself, so that with every game you say you stayed undercover there's another example of how you were aggressive. That way, people learn nothing from your scum meta and can't point to any given behavior as out of character.

The entire exercise is one of futility. You don't learn anything of value from scum meta. I don't like doing it. End of story for me.

[hewitt]

I would actually have to agree. I kind of feel like scum meta is used by a veteran of this site to show off how many games they've played and how experienced they are at this game. The more meta that someone puts up the more likely I'm going to distrust them for the simple fact that they have so much more experience at lying and deceiving. Kmd your scum games do contradict each other so basically no matter what style you play this game it'll probably match one of your scum games so what am I supposed to do with that information? I find joke votes to be silly for me to partake in even if others do so (which I have no problem with obviously) and I'm starting to find scum meta just a little annoying more then anything. It's an overload of information that quite frankly doesn't help me at all.

[hohum]

I don't think the scum meta discussion is actually getting us anywhere. I do know if more people thought it was a good idea more than just KMD would have posted theirs by now. No need to continue to beat a dead horse.

Me personally: I think metas are more useful for establishing patterns of play for townies rather than scum if the game is played correctly. Townies have far less of a reason to lie than scum does. The very act of telling a conscience lie alters one's game play, so any meta that can be picked up on scum is ultimately skewed.

[dejkha]

Um, was that a joke or are you serious dejkha?

Hell no it wasn't a joke. I'm serious. An I'm sure it'll only take 5 posts from him for you to feel the same way. I /outed from other games and /inned for this one because I thought he wouldn't be in it. So did hohum, actually.

You don't think she had anything against the idea of discussing scum meta? I find that hard to believe.

No, that's exactly what she said. What I said was I dont think she implied that she could and didn't want to. Meaning she didn't have the option, since she doesn't have a meta on this site. Even still, anyone can lie about their scum meta if you're not going to look it up yourself. Be honest, would you really make the effort to read entire games just to see how they played? Either way though, it doesn't make a difference to me if someone posts their meta.

As for my scum meta, I was scum once and it was in my newbie game back in September. There were so many mistakes on the towns part, that I wasn't a main suspect for anyone. Honestly it was probably one of the most unique newbies to be played =/

[Kmd4390]

Sorry Kmd, I did not phrase that question properly. I was more interested in your thoughts on Rin's actual actions in this game, not really some philosophical position on if posting/not posting scum meta is particularly suspect behavior. The whole point is to get people to talk and evaluate them based on their actions. I was more interested in what you thought of her responses and people's reactions to them.

Phrasing it that way doesn't change anything. I think as town, she should be more than willing to discuss how she plays. As scum, she won't want to limit herself by giving away how she plays as scum and having to try and avoid that.

Do you think I would lie about how games went when any one person in this game could go look up any of those games?

Short answer: I expect you to be dishonest if you're scum in this game. It's not that simple, really, but that's true enough.

Actually, when I'm scum, I try to be honest about as much as possible. Sure, I try to look like town and I try to look like I'm scumhunting. Hell, if I claim it will be a fakeclaim. But I don't straight up lie when it can be proven. That's why I wouldn't even want to discuss my scum meta if I was scum. Because I'd have to either put it out there or lie about it. And a lie can easily be proven to be a lie.

Okay, here we go: in your world, not wanting to meta about past games is a scumtell, right? So in that case any given game of mafia should following a simple format: someone asks for scum meta, everyone but the scum posts it, you lynch those players, game over!

Unfortunately, that won't work in many games. Once people see it, they will start to go with it in a way that they look protown. Mafia is a game of evolution and adaption (among several other things). If someone has an idea and applies it, people learn from that. I saw this used offsite. It worked there. I'm trying it here. But after a few games, I can't use it anymore because people will know the purpose of it and post their meta anyway.

Since that isn't how mafia goes, there might be something wrong with your surefire strategy. How about this scenario then: someone asks for scum meta, and everyone complies. Including the scum. So what do you do with the wealth of 'information' to figure out who mafia is? Well, what information do you have, really- a series of one or two sentences about every game that every person has previously played. It's unlikely that the scum have handed you the keys to their own demise, of course, but they're also probably not going to flat out lie about how they played in case you do check up on it. So a more subtle kind of dishonesty is required.

Actually, in this scenario, I think the scum posted their truthful meta and will try to avoid playing the same way. Or maybe they just weren't as detailed as they could have been.

There's a far easier solution for scum to post meta about how they've been scum in other games. You post about the events in the game. That fills up words, and makes you seem honest.

That too. But you see, by saying what scum could do, you are showing how information can be gained this way. If you think scum will post about game events instead of playstyle, post your meta, wait for others to do the same, and jump on it when you see it. I mean, it's too late now, but that was what you could have done.

You use scum generalizations like 'in this game I laid low' and 'in this game I went after easy targets'. Most importantly, you also contradict yourself, so that with every game you say you stayed undercover there's another example of how you were aggressive. That way, people learn nothing from your scum meta and can't point to any given behavior as out of character.

Well, laying low and going after easy targets are scumtells I've commited before. People can look for that. And yes, I've used multiple playstyles as scum. That's valuable to know too. Because now you know that if I'm avoiding a specific scumtell, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm town. It basically says watch me closely because I'm good at looking protown as scum. But would scum want to share that kind of information? No. They'd hide it like you are. That is why I'm voting you.

The entire exercise is one of futility. You don't learn anything of value from scum meta. I don't like doing it. End of story for me.

From the meta itself, maybe you don't learn much. Like I've said already, the point is to see reactions to asking for scum meta. And yours is exactly what I was hoping to see from scum.

No, that's exactly what she said. What I said was I dont think she implied that she could and didn't want to. Meaning she didn't have the option, since she doesn't have a meta on this site. Even still, anyone can lie about their scum meta if you're not going to look it up yourself. Be honest, would you really make the effort to read entire games just to see how they played? Either way though, it doesn't make a difference to me if someone posts their meta.

If something seemed off, I'd look.

Most people seem to be missing the point. It's not the meta itself I'm concerned with. It's the willingness to post it and discuss it openly.

[hewitt]

Kmd do you go into every game asking for scum meta?

[Kmd4390]

Kmd do you go into every game asking for scum meta?

No. I saw it done offsite recently as a substitute for the RVS and it was surprisingly effective. I tried it once, but the game is ongoing. So this is the second time I've personally done it, and the third game I've been in where it's been done.

[hewitt]

Kmd do you go into every game asking for scum meta?

No. I saw it done offsite recently as a substitute for the RVS and it was surprisingly effective. I tried it once, but the game is ongoing. So this is the second time I've personally done it, and the third game I've been in where it's been done.

Okay because it would seem a little shady to me to come in and do it this game if you don't normally do it just because there's the possibility that you could've gone in this game planning on doing it and I don't see why you would have a gameplan ready before the game even starts.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd do you go into every game asking for scum meta?

No. I saw it done offsite recently as a substitute for the RVS and it was surprisingly effective. I tried it once, but the game is ongoing. So this is the second time I've personally done it, and the third game I've been in where it's been done.

Okay because it would seem a little shady to me to come in and do it this game if you don't normally do it just because there's the possibility that you could've gone in this game planning on doing it and I don't see why you would have a gameplan ready before the game even starts.

TBH, I actually brought it here because you didn't random vote.