In post 1124, glowball wrote:I don't know that it is COMPLETELY broken.
We kind of got best case scenarios, like Neil outright claiming SK and NO scum counter claims. I mean we have to credit play style to some of what happened. That being said it is very slanted. I guess someone who thinks it is unfair should summarize.
A setup doesn't need to be COMPLETELY broken to be broken. If there is a strategy that
should
be used to increase the town's chances, rather than playing the game normally, the setup (in most cases) shouldn't be played.
I understand that. I was just saying that from my POV there is a strategy that town can follow but if scum make a point not to make the same mistakes then it cannot increase their chances. Like town has no control over Serial Killer claims, that is up to the player and mafia could choose to counter claim a vig, none of that happened. But I guess the summarized plan was:
Mass Claim
If there were counter claims vigs would shoot in a pool of themselves
there were no counters in this situation
So we had selected doctors protect the vigs
We had a doctor protection train or circle whatever you want to call it so that everyone except the doctors protecting the vigs were covered limiting who scum could kill without outing themselves.
Vigs shot from two separate pools of players this way if the vigs kill was successful then we would know that whoever was protecting that player is scum.
This way there was a possibility of 3 kills at night, but also confirmed scum in the morning.
I think whispersilk was the won who made the game-breaking strategy, and GreyICE claims to have broken it before.
Basically, if the two vigs claim, then all the docs create a chain of protects. The vigs shoot from a given group of choices. If no kill goes through, then we either have a conf. doctor or an SK. SK needs to be alive to give scum ANY chance, but to can become victim of the strategy if he is supposed to protect someone.
"A train robbery is where you take a train to your destination, make your move, and take a train back, right?"-Isaac
Basically vigs claim, if you only get two vigs you divide everyone else into 2 groups, and create 1-big doc-train, and have the vig shoot between each group, with the two scummiest-non-vigs protecting the vigs.
If more than two vigs claim all the vigs shoot each other in a shoot train, and whichever ones don't die get lynched.
Personally my only chances in my opinion were if I tried to convince the town that I had town motivations, and let me run with them. Then when I kill, rather it be scum or town I'm killing it'd play to my win condition... And I figured if I could just last for awhile, maybe things would turn for the best? I really didn't see much of a chance with winning this game from the get-go when I started the set up. Then when all the claiming happened, I knew for a fact either way I was screwed. This is twice now that claiming has left my hand unwinnable. GRR!
Yeah SKs cannot win in this set up. If you claim they kill you before end game. Best Serial Killer strategy is simply playing like a townie and endgaming with mafia. However, they way this set up was broken that was impossible since there were no Vanillas just Doctors. That is the part I think that makes it unwinnable is that it's too easy to weed out those without active abilities like SK and mafia goons since everyone else is a doctor. Put in some vanillas and it would be different but there's already a set up like that?
If you want to look at whether it's broken, the scenario wherein one scum claims vig is probably the most interesting to look at. Scum definitely can't afford for town to have 2 confirmed vigs and sacrificing 1 mafia to get rid of both vigs shouldn't set back the scum too much (if at all).
Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!
~"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."~
In post 1132, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:If you want to look at whether it's broken, the scenario wherein one scum claims vig is probably the most interesting to look at. Scum definitely can't afford for town to have 2 confirmed vigs and sacrificing 1 mafia to get rid of both vigs shouldn't set back the scum too much (if at all).
then you direct all three vig-claims to kill from three-pools, and as soon as two people from the SAME pool die, and one pool nobody dies, you know the vig assigned to that pool was scum, and everyone left in the pool is probablyscum.
In post 1132, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:If you want to look at whether it's broken, the scenario wherein one scum claims vig is probably the most interesting to look at. Scum definitely can't afford for town to have 2 confirmed vigs and sacrificing 1 mafia to get rid of both vigs shouldn't set back the scum too much (if at all).
then you direct all three vig-claims to kill from three-pools, and as soon as two people from the SAME pool die, and one pool nobody dies, you know the vig assigned to that pool was scum, and everyone left in the pool is probablyscum.
Why would the scum "vig" kill outside his pool?
Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!
~"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."~
because the only ones left IN his pool are scum, or protected by scum.
He will kill within his pool to stop from being lynched, thereby curbing the usefulness of the scum-kill as it will be town-directed.
He will assist the town in giving them confirmed-doctors, and as soon as the only people left in his OWN pool are protected by scum, or ARE scum, he'll quit shooting at them, and will either confirm fake doctors, (while also wasting the scum-kill on NKs), which then leaves the open possibility of vigilantes shooting each other, so as to check the validity of the doctors on them. which will be more encouraged than was encouraged in this game, as ONE of them is scum.
Of course this is all moot of the SK is the third claim, but eventually with enough night-phases, all scum would be dead and you'd learn one of the "3" vigs is an SK, then you tell all three to shoot each other on a circle at that point and lynch the one that doesn't die.
I think you guys are overestimating how effective the plan is because things went so perfectly this game.
One major downside of the executed plan, which didn't prove to be a problem in this game, is that it doesn't catch the mafia doctor. Add in a scum "vig" claim and now the plan only catches 2 of the 4 scum! Given that the plan catches scum by vigging townies, I don't think the town has the time to execute the plan and then catch the remaining 2 scum after, especially with an SK around.
(Idle thought: the SK can probably afford to claim vig if the mafia claims vig too.)
Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!
~"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."~
I agree that the breaking strategy isn't perfect, and it could blow up in the town's face, but it can still allows the town to very easily find 2-3 of the scum - especially if the town were to play it better than they did here.
(Mostly) on hiatus until further notice. Planet MafiaScum 2 will be modded by Inspi and JDGA - go check it out!
