BBM's Large Werewolves -- (Fin?)

[Empking]

I like the Cult Role, I prefer it when there's some clue but its a really cool third party role.

[Flameaxe]

1. Empking explained his reasoning, his reasoning was just simplistic.
2. Pooky is pretty meh. He always votes without reasons. That said, he would have been my no1 suspect day five had I lived, for other reasons.
3. You know those last two days? When town players were quicklynched without any reasoning from anyone? While you were alive and didn't do anything to slow the game down or do any analysis? Yeah, what the fuck was up with that?

_____________________________________________
Setup comments:

1) Five scum in 16 is overpowered to start with, even without the cult. Town should have had a lot of strong PRs to counteract that. Cop and a couple limited-shot things is not nearly enough. Should have had at least cop + doc.
2) This cult was insane. Town had no way to know there was a cult until they flipped the recruiter, and no way to know who was a recruit, ever. This meant that if the town DID flip the recruiter, they were likely to decapitate one another. There was a werewolves of miller's hollow game about a year ago, and that had a similar method, but town players who were recruited were told they were recruited, and told who else was recruited as well. I could have lived with this if the cult ended when the recruiter died, and this was made clear. I could have lived with it if recruits were made aware. What you actually did was always going to end in a clusterfuck.

1) I'm assuming you mean 19 rather than 16, yeah? I don't necessarily think that four and a traitor is too outlandish in 19. I will agree that town power was a bit on the weak side. If I went back to change anything, thats what I would change.

2) I see the first bit you mention about the cult. I haven't read the miller's hollow game yet, but clear something up for me about it: Did the alignment on the recruited players change as well as being told? If that was the case, I'm not really sure what the purpose would be. If the cult ended when the recruiter died, it wouldn't just be difficult for the cult recruiter to win, it would be impossible. The town didn't have to kill the cultists to win, only the wolves and cult leader.

[Magister Ludi]

Well its not just five scum vs town, there is a cult thrown against town as well. Now, in the middle of the game, town would have no idea what modified meant, and I think justifiably (given how many cults there are running around these days), thought about lynching cult, which bought the mafia even more time to win.

Maybe if you had changed the name, or revealed the win condition upon dying (since he lost already) or something would have helped out a little bit.

[Flameaxe]

I'll give you the first paragraph. That is something that I hadn't anticipated, and really should have. Changing the name would have worked, but revealing the win condition would not have. Its not mentioned in the setup info post (and actually, I'm really not sure why it isnt), but Oman's wincon was:

You win when all living players are part of the cult, regardless of your survival. If another faction completes a win condition before you do, the game will end, and you will lose.

He hadn't lost when he died. The chance he still had was very small, but it was still there.

[The Fonz]

2) I see the first bit you mention about the cult. I haven't read the miller's hollow game yet, but clear something up for me about it: Did the alignment on the recruited players change as well as being told? If that was the case, I'm not really sure what the purpose would be. If the cult ended when the recruiter died, it wouldn't just be difficult for the cult recruiter to win, it would be impossible. The town didn't have to kill the cultists to win, only the wolves and cult leader.

The recruited players kept their alignment. The point was that town was made aware of the threat (and in fact, was able to narrow it down because the town knew who the recruits were). It wouldn't be impossible for the cult to win, because all the cult leader had to do was stay alive long enough to recruit half the town. You're saying here that in this game, all town had to do to eliminate the cult threat was lynch the leader: you should have made this clear via the flavor. Because the town didn't know what the fuck 'modified' meant, so they assumed there might still be cultists out there and that they needed to be lynched, and lynched people who weren't particularly likely to be wolves on account of it.

[Magister Ludi]

Well essentially the cult leader lost when he died, because the only way for him to win would be to have recruited two or three town players, have them all survive until lylo, and then lynch the scum and Oman would win because he's got all town alive and his win condition was met. If he recruited a solitary scum bag, he would probably lose, because as soon as the scum won a lylo battle the game would be over with one town vs one scum and the scum wouldn't need to kill the town to win anymore.

Maybe release his role pm at the beginning of the game, or something along those lines.

[Flameaxe]

@Fonz: Fair enough.

@Ludi: Essentially lost isn't the same as lost though. At the time of his death, he did have two town recruits. Nevertheless, if I plan on using the role again, I plan on using it in an open setup.

[The Fonz]

^^^

Someone needs to point ReaperCharlie to this in order to show him what a mod gracefully accepting constructive criticism of an interesting idea that didn't work in practice looks like.

[Magister Ludi]

Other than my few issues with the setup, the modding was great, and I enjoyed many of the players in this game.

~~~~

Who remembers the low-key train wreck all the way back on day one? Oh man, there were some fun times to be had in this thread

[Flameaxe]

Scum QT
Dead QT

Before I forget these.

[dramonic]

I approve of this outcome (b'_')b

4 scum + traitor in a 19 player game does not appear scumsided to me, although the town was fairly weak.

[Magister Ludi]

Thats because you were scum....

[dramonic]

for the first part yes. for the latter nah.

[Seraphim]

I actually think the traitor screwed up our numbers more than the cult. I already had figured out that "Modified" cult meant that it was weak(reminiscent of Vi's Inquisitor role in MS3) so I highly doubted there was a lot of cult around(which turned out to be true). I don't think that Oman had a lot of chance of winning though, it's a hard condition to fulfill. He basically had to guess LYLO or something close to it, because a 5-13-1 game had about four to seven days possibly...he doesn't have a lot of room for error.

Town was weak, yeah. Game would have been balanced without the traitor, I think, or with another power role, or if Tajo was a little stronger. I think this was pretty damn close to balanced though. I think what really killed this game was just terrible town play...I mean, we lynched the traitor, that was it. Low-Key was town MVP, as he killed the only scum in the entire game.

[Magister Ludi]

Hey I got reck!

[dramonic]

Reck self-destructed.

[[Low Key]]

EP made it the endgame???

[[Low Key]]

I'm not MVP (blush). But I called Tajo-scum. I shouldn't of self-hammered.

[[Low Key]]

Vengeful Vig is a very satisfying role.

[[Low Key]]

@Fonz: Fair enough.

@Ludi: Essentially lost isn't the same as lost though. At the time of his death, he did have two town recruits. Nevertheless, if I plan on using the role again, I plan on using it in an open setup.

Ya open cult sounds awesome!

[[Low Key]]

He warned us though in the OP "anything is possible here".

[[Low Key]]

I think the flavor idea of a cult running around with a town of werewolves is awesome.

[andrew94]

told ya pooky and dramonic were scum.
low key, you still talk too much..

[[Low Key]]

EP made it the endgame???

Vengeful Vig is a very satisfying role.

@Fonz: Fair enough.

@Ludi: Essentially lost isn't the same as lost though. At the time of his death, he did have two town recruits. Nevertheless, if I plan on using the role again, I plan on using it in an open setup.

Ya open cult sounds awesome!

He warned us though in the OP "anything is possible here".

I think the flavor idea of a cult running around with a town of werewolves is awesome.

told ya pooky and dramonic were scum.
low key, you still talk too much..

Pffft. I do not.

[xRECKONERx]

WE WON? WOOT