Open 302: JUNGLE REPUB nope game over! Party time!

[Regfan]

Considering Toffee hasn't posted in the past 24 hours I'm going to go ahead and attain ownership of this slot. I've been trying to keep up with this thread in the past few hours in case there was a chance that I could either give Toffee my reads or be able to play so I'm already up to date. We need more content from a few of the lurkers, getting a gut-scum read from Wicked, his posts seem to all be objective opinions on events rather than stating his actual thoughts.

Neils post here seems like a geninue town-tell. I believe he wouldn't have attempted to fake getting the numbers of mafia in the game incorrect on pupose, with that said it's stoll possible that he's a werewolf. Overall leaning town on Neil, Neil vs Empking seems TvT.

Neil, if you believe Empking will begin talking more if he's pressured via votes why would you state so openly in the post that contained your vote?

Empking calling Neils post scummy AtE in this post is a massive massive stretch. Neil stating he regrets getting getting into a back-and-forth over semantics is a null-tell. With that said majority of Empkings post seem more of a misguided townie than anything else. Leaning town read.

Deity just reitterates his poor reasoning for his vote on Empking in this post. The extent of the logic behind his vote is "Empking is trying too hard to look townie therefore mafia". Both mafia and town want to look town, therefore attempting to look town or looking town is a mere null-tell unless you have meta to prove that Empking attempts to act more pro-town as mafia. Leaning scum read.

Deity, what experience have you had in mafia before this game?

TwistedSpoons vote here screams over-eager opportunistic mafia. It's just an attempt at jumping and manipulating someones post to start of the votes. This post by Twisted is entirely fluff, he fencesits on everyone actives allignment and does nothing else. Leaning scum on Twisted.

Vote: Twisted

[DeityKabuto]

Um... I've played two games on another site, not as much as experience as the amount of games you guys have probably played, but I am not a complete newbie.

[HezLucky]

Vote Empking

It doesn't seem like he will be a help to the towns much... and since he already has people piling votes on him, he could of done something scummy so far.

This is easily the dumbest thing I've read so far. I will

Unvote, Vote: DeityKabuto

and seriously what is with the activity in this game? Spam walls encourage lurking. It's damn near impossible to keep up.

[Sloth]

I'm skimming those walls, just so you guys know.

VOTE: DeityKabuto

Came off as the worst by a LOT in that exchange.

[Umbrage]

Empking (4) - MagnaofIllusion, Wickedestjr, neil1113, DeityKabuto
DeityKabuto (2) - HezLucky, Sloth
Sloth (1) - zMuffinMan
HezLucky (1) - Twistedspoon
neil1113 (1) - Empking
Twistedspoon (1) - Regfan

Not Voting: Caboose, cjdrum.

[neil1113]

Guys, I would step back and think about where you place your votes. Empking, I'm going to re-ISO you without my biased and see what my read will come of you. I'm sorry that I've brought on this argument where it's mostly my Biased opinions causing me to see everything you do as scummy. And when it is, I don't even think about the possibility that it could just be misguided townie.

I also want to ISO Deity, except his only posts are concerning Emp. I don't think he warrants much of a ISO, or a concern... not saying he reads town for me though. I can definitely see him being scum.

I'm not sure any cases on Sloth or Hez, but Twisted I can definitely see the case for. He's probably my 2nd scum town read. Unfortunately, he also was the only other person to call me out as scummy, so I want to ISO him again without any biased.

I'd like to see Caboose contribute more to this game. Deliver a read, and pressure them? Same goes for Hez and CJ. Matter of fact, CJDrum has been nearly silent this game. Come on CJ, post!

To clarify, what I'm currently going to be doing is ISOing Twisted, and Empking again. My #1, and #2 reads before I ISO them are Emp and Twisted.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm skimming those walls, just so you guys know.

I read the first 10 then skimmed the rest. What a waste of time.

Muffin: What do you think of neil's insistence that he challenged me before I voted him? Kind of makes it clear that he's scum, right?

I think you two obviously have some sort of grudge going based on this other game you're both in. I don't think there's anything to gain from reading any deeper into it than that at the moment.

looks too strong to be town v town in my experience and It looks too disorganised and 3-way to be a bus

however I don't know what to think since we have 2 scum factions :/

need more opinions. Looks like just you 3 so far

What about the "strength" of it made you think it isn't TvT? If you don't think it's TvT and you don't think it's bussing, then who do you think is town and who do you think is scum and why?

Unvote Vote: TwistedSpoon

8324

question: do scum and werewolf factions get daytalk?

I didn't take notice of this irony before I went back through your ISO...

Scum feigning ignorance of his role?

[Caboose]

Yay! I have time to read some wallz. Since quote walls look ugly, I'm just going to give URL links to posts. I hope everyone's OK with that (if not, too frikin' bad).

Empking, you can't have a playstyle like yours and then bitch about someone discrediting you. If you throw out an unexplained vote, be prepared not to receive any credit in the first place. From my POV, it looks like you jumped on what you thought would be a popular RVS wagon (for the whole thing about neil getting the mafia numbers wrong) and then went into hardcore confirmation bias mode.

Magna [68]: How can you call someone down for a soft-attack after what you said to me in the pre-game?

Duke of Spoon [75]: Why is the fact that there's 2 factions throwing you for a loop? If anything it should make it more explainable to you (there being 2 teams means that all of them being scum doesn't depend on the evidence of bussing). FWIW, I think Empking emerges looking the worst; from what I read (which is admittedly not the whole arguement since it devolved into a slapfight) you can boil his arguments down to strawman (I don't think that's the case here; and I also think you have yet to prove why the strawman is scummy even if you think it exists), AtE (NOT a scumtell), and misrep (which I'm not seeing, either).

DK [99]: At first, this post made me cringe, but I don't think scum would openly admit to not having read their votee's posts. I think they would try to cobble some half-assed case together.

DK [110]: Well, I guess I may have spoken too soon. Here's the half-assed case I was talking about earlier.

DK [124]: That might be the clumsiest attempt to end a conversation I've ever seen. This DK wagon is good.

VOTE: DK

[cjdrum]

Oops, forgot about the game. Dammit.

Neil's been posting an awful lot. Empking's been posting an awful lot. I don't think they're both Town (I mean... So much interaction between scum is ridiculous). Neil: What do you

really

think of Empking? I don't really see the massivest case against either of you, and I can't lean either way just yet. I'm inclined to say Empking, but that's probably because of the votes on him. Then I feel like saying you, but can't find heeeeaaaaps of scumminess.

I'm just trying to get a read of your thoughts of your interactions with Empking.


Now, I know it's page 6, but I haven't really posted yet... What do we think of the MafiaSheep? It's not like they can kill us... But it's hard to differentiate between Werewolf-tell and Mafia-tell. I think we should only kill Mafia if we don't have a Werewolf in hand.

Except they still wanna kill us. Hmm... Ack, I don't know. What do you guys think?

[DeityKabuto]

Vote Empking

It doesn't seem like he will be a help to the towns much... and since he already has people piling votes on him, he could of done something scummy so far.

This is easily the dumbest thing I've read so far. I will

Unvote, Vote: DeityKabuto

and seriously what is with the activity in this game? Spam walls encourage lurking. It's damn near impossible to keep up.

Well this is my first time playing a game with a Town role, before I was Mafia and an SK, and I've heard that you either question people or confront them.

[Empking]

Neil stating he regrets getting getting into a back-and-forth over semantics is a null-tell.

But he didn't say that. He said that he

would

regret it. This is called a lie because if he would regret it then he wouldn't have gotten into it. Surely lies in order to get sympathy are scummy?

Empking, you can't have a playstyle like yours and then bitch about someone discrediting you.

You don't think poisoning the well is a scum tell?
Also: Isn't post 110 a result of my playstyle?

[Twistedspoon]

Neil's been posting an awful lot. Empking's been posting an awful lot. I don't think they're both Town

that's what I said :0

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry for not posting yesterday. I didn't have much computer access, but I'm catching up now.

[DeityKabuto]

@Caboose, I had to end it. Sorry but I'm just lazy, school and everything, I didn't want it to go pages like Empking and niel's did.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked: What do you think of neil's habit of writing statements where everything is implied rather than said and as such gives him plausible deniability?

Can you post examples of this, please? Once you have, I'll answer your question. If he's truly done this I haven't noticed it.

[Empking]

Wicked

2. The largest wagon?

When coupled with:
Me: You don't think it was the largest wagon.
Him: I didn't say that.

Please tell me everyone else realizes that everyone who challenges Empking is called scum by him?

When coupled with
Me: What do you think of neil's insistence that he challenged me before I voted him?
Him: And I'm not insisting that I challenged you before you voted for me? When have I said that?

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, I'm caught up. I'll respond/ask questions to others and then post my thoughts...

We need more content from a few of the lurkers, getting a gut-scum read from Wicked, his posts seem to all be objective opinions on events rather than stating his actual thoughts.

Can you elaborate on this, please?

TwistedSpoons vote here screams over-eager opportunistic mafia.

I suspect Twistedspoon as well, but how was his vote over-eager and opportunistic?

@Empking - I don't think either of those quotes are examples of neil1113 trying to give himself plausible deniability.

---

Vote: Twistedspoon

I find him the most suspicious for three reasons:

1.) He expressed interest in a neil RVS bandwagon in the pre-game, but when the game began he random voted HezLucky instead.
2.) Posts 7 and 8 in his iso are both fluff and are good examples of IIoA.
3.) His last post has ignored the people voting him.

While I suspect Twistedspoon, at the same time, I think that zMuffinMan's vote for him looks very opportunistic. He doesn't give any reasons for the vote and also doesn't give any stance regarding Twistedspoon or his actions ("I think he's a bit scummy", "I'm pretty certain he's scum", "this seems odd", etc.). MuffinMan, why are you voting Twistedspoon? There's also this very scummy quote:

I didn't take notice of this irony before I went back through your ISO...

Scum feigning ignorance of his role?

I have two problems with this. First of all, this is IIoA. He points this out but doesn't give any opinion on it. Secondly, this is opportunistic, because he thinks it is possible that Twistedspoon could be scum feigning ignorance of his role, but made no mention of neil1113 despite there being more evidence of this exact same point against him.

I agree that neil1113 vs. Empking looks like an argument between two townies and I have pretty strong town reads of both of them. In addition, I think DeityKabuto and MagnaofIllusion are probably town. Finally, I've got my eye on HezLucky and Sloth in particular.

[Empking]

Wicked: I don't want to tunnel and I've got a town read on you. Would you mind explaining how that first example was not him blatantly implying something in order to be able to use his pet phrase "I didn't say that"?

Can you also give a town motivation for him refusing to answer my question while trying to pretend as if he had?

[MagnaofIllusion]

My hypothesis was that you were scum. I had an experiment to test that. I made my prediction of what my experiment would yield public so that when my prediction came true it would carry more weight. Please explain why that is scummy?

I’ve clearly explained why it is scummy – if you were honestly scum-hunting you would have no interest in staging a reaction to the response that has yet to happen. It’s not rocket science. Scum are the only alignment that have an reason to 'pre-argue' anything.

Ok, I asked "Why did you say X?" He "answer" was "X is true because Y". This means that either
1. He has to say everything which is true OR 2. He refused to answer the question.
I then asked you which one you thought it was? And you refused to answer?

Your questions frankly make no sense and have not context. I guess I am going to not be answering when you’ve created something that is not understandable as formed.

Too many [expletive] scum!

Oh how quaint … you are resorting to AtE the same Wiki-tell you’ve been throwing around as scummy. Nice.

MOI's vote on me was random?

Nope. 100% real for your immediate vote on Neil for reasons that I already outlined was horrible in my pre-game discussion with Twistedspoon.

--

@Diety re 99

– So you are happy voting for Empking simply because he has votes but haven’t bothered to actually read?

Scumtastic.

Each post after that gets worse and worse? Never played a Town player?

How were you ‘confronting or questioning” Empking with your vote at 99?

Consider yourself sloted firmly in scum at this point.

--

@HezLucky

– so nothing to say at all regarding the entire pages of Empking versus Neil posting?

--

How can you call someone down for a soft-attack after what you said to me in the pre-game?

Quite easily. Empking’s soft attacks came in the midst of me questioning him and pointing out his logical failures. You I was purely reaction fishing. Context is everything.

--

Now, I know it's page 6, but I haven't really posted yet... What do we think of the MafiaSheep? It's not like they can kill us... But it's hard to differentiate between Werewolf-tell and Mafia-tell. I think we should only kill Mafia if we don't have a Werewolf in hand.

Um, whut? I don’t even ….

--

1.) He expressed interest in a neil RVS bandwagon in the pre-game, but when the game began he random voted HezLucky instead.

So let me get your logic straight here …

1. Twisted in pre-game expressed a desire to RVS neil for his fake-post about not understanding certain Mafia aspects.
2. You and I explained to him that was a bad tactic for scum to take pre-game
3. Twisted eventually grudgingly agrees.
4. Twisted votes someone else RVS when the game opens.
5. You vote him for it.

That’s what you are basing your point 1 on?

Also

Wicked

– why do think of Empking’s vote for Neil given that it ostensibly had the same reason as Twisted’s early suspicion (see post 28 for context)?

[Empking]

MOI's vote on me was random?

Nope. 100% real for your immediate vote on Neil for reasons that I already outlined was horrible in my pre-game discussion with Twistedspoon.

I knew I wasn't suffering from confirmation bias. MOI doesn't want to interact with neil. (Neil calls MOI's vote random but MOI doesn't respond. I ask Neil to clarify so he can't back up and MOI respondes to that in the negative.)

How can you call someone down for a soft-attack after what you said to me in the pre-game?

Quite easily. Empking’s soft attacks came in the midst of me questioning him and pointing out his logical failures. You I was purely reaction fishing. Context is everything.

I said you looked like neil's buddy. Why is that a soft attack?

[neil1113]

After ISOing both Emp and Twisted, I'm still completely satisfied with my read on Emp. I do incredibly believe him to be scum. So he's going to stay as my #1 vote.

However, I'm also leaning Twisted as scum as well. I've ISO'd him, and Twisted could you start posting more and giving us more content in this game? Unfortunately I've gotten to know your scum Meta pretty well, and I'm starting to see some... similarities that are starting to bother me. Starting off with your seemingly lack at scum hunting.

Wicked, what about our fight makes you think we're both townies? I ask because we both have very different views of each other, and apparently I'm not the only one who thinks that about Emp, so how can you really see Emp's responses and consider him to be town? That's the question I'm really asking.

Deity, what's your actual opinion/case on Emp?

Hes Lucky: What makes you think our posts we're specifically spam? Are you addressing that to both of us, or is it more of a one-sided thing? And I'd highly recommend you not just "skip" through them, but look at Emp and look at his responses, and then tell me how you can possibly see him as town after it's all said and done? I can't.

[Empking]

Hey
, neil: What's your case against me again? Like what have I done that was scummy?

[Wickedestjr]

Would you mind explaining how that first example was not him blatantly implying something in order to be able to use his pet phrase "I didn't say that"?

This is how I interprated it:

Empking: What allignment is so afraid of 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?

Neil1113: The largest wagon? 2 votes? =

You consider two votes to be a large bandwagon?

My interpratation: I don't think he was questioning your statement that you were the largest bandwagon, but questioning why you think he would feel the need to join the largest bandwagon when it was only two votes in this case.

Empking: You don't think it was the largest wagon.

My interpratation: You thought he was denying that you were the largest bandwagon, when, in actuality, he was simply saying that he didn't think your bandwagon was as large as he thought you were making it out to be.

Neil1113: I didn't say that.

My interpratation: He didn't say that, it was just how you interprated it.

I'm pretty sure that's the misunderstanding.

Can you also give a town motivation for him refusing to answer my question while trying to pretend as if he had?

Which question are you talking about?

@HezLucky – so nothing to say at all regarding the entire pages of Empking versus Neil posting?

Any particular reason why you didn't ask Sloth or zMuffinMan this question?

Also, Magna, what do you think of cjdrum?

So let me get your logic straight here …

1. Twisted in pre-game expressed a desire to RVS neil for his fake-post about not understanding certain Mafia aspects.
2. You and I explained to him that was a bad tactic for scum to take pre-game

3. Twisted eventually grudgingly agrees.

4. Twisted votes someone else RVS when the game opens.
5. You vote him for it.

That’s what you are basing your point 1 on?

Not quite. I don't think #3 actually happened. This was Twistedspoon's last post before the game actually began:

1) nothing, how could it?

There's no way to tell for certain that it's a gambit. However it makes a very respectable RVS wagon

2) I'm not sure If it'd be the best thing. Magna seems to think not. I'd have done it to distance myself from the scum faction were I scum
3) I've reconsidered and I think it's shoddy evidence now that I remember random.org has been used to generate the roles. I doubt our mod would take role requests, especially ones that were posted in the open queue for all to see :p

And the only post after this, but before his random vote was this:

1) i don't know neil's meta
2) well i wasn't going to lynch him based on that fact, only an RVS wagon. But hey, feel free to suspect me should I try that tactic. I can't help feeling that I'd have dug my own grave though

He doesn't say in either of these posts that he isn't going to vote Neil for an RVS wagon. He also doesn't give any reason for changing his mind when he random votes either.

Also Wicked – why do think of Empking’s vote for Neil given that it ostensibly had the same reason as Twisted’s early suspicion (see post 28 for context)?

I don't think Empking ever gave the reason for his original vote. If he did, can you quote it please? If that was why he voted Neil, I don't find it suspicious.

Empking, have you ever seen scum blatantly defend their buddy? If so, can you post a link, please?

[Empking]

Would you mind explaining how that first example was not him blatantly implying something in order to be able to use his pet phrase "I didn't say that"?

This is how I interprated it:

Empking: What allignment is so afraid of 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?

Neil1113: The largest wagon? 2 votes? =

You consider two votes to be a large bandwagon?

My interpratation: I don't think he was questioning your statement that you were the largest bandwagon, but questioning why you think he would feel the need to join the largest bandwagon when it was only two votes in this case.

Empking: You don't think it was the largest wagon.

My interpratation: You thought he was denying that you were the largest bandwagon, when, in actuality, he was simply saying that he didn't think your bandwagon was as large as he thought you were making it out to be.

Neil1113: I didn't say that.

My interpratation: He didn't say that, it was just how you interprated it.

I'm pretty sure that's the misunderstanding.

You seem to be producing the word "large" out of nowhere because nobody ever mentioned how absolutely large it was. To quote Neil "The

largest

wagon?" (bold mine)

The question was about why he said the "I'm going to regret this" comment. He refused to answer that and instead answered the unasked, easier and utterly unrelated question of why he thought he was going to regret it.

Empking, have you ever seen scum blatantly defend their buddy? If so, can you post a link, please?

I've got an awful memory but give a minute and I'm sure I'll find one.

[Empking]

I think the latter days of this were the scum team defending one another: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15577