Atomic Mafia (Over, the town is safe!)

[gandalf5166]

Well, MoI, I think Baby Spice is probably the scummier of the two, plus there's all her night action shenanigans, and 1439 just seems like reaching where a townie would have just gone "I don't know", but bunny is making me nervous by hiding behind her meta like that. I mean, I realize that she DOES play that way as town, but I feel like she really is hiding behind it, rather than just stating that it's a nulltell and moving on.

@bunny: If you do like scumhunting, why is that all you have to say about Baby Spice?

[gandalf5166]

I'm doing ISOs.

[gandalf5166]

Can someone remind me who ConSpiracy replaced?

[MagnaofIllusion]

No-one Conspiracy started the game.

[gandalf5166]

No-one Conspiracy started the game.

Oh, so he was just inactive all D1?

[MagnaofIllusion]

No-one Conspiracy started the game.

Oh, so he was just inactive all D1?

Yes he was.

Remember Day 1 was only about 48 real life hours long IIRC.

[gandalf5166]

I'm compiling a list of all the times flipped redscum have referenced BS or bunny. ConSpiracy and Katsuki both ignored both of them.

Spoiler: Spirituality makes this a really fucking big post, but it was pretty revealing for me

DGB, I think it was just the way he was votehopping without caring if he looked scummy or not

I can buy that.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: tajo

Actually, no.

I'm keeping my tajo vote. He's scum. Seven posts in 20 pages while he's much more active elsewhere? It's as good as a cop result.

To further why DGB is posting crap with that vote

…

BabySpice has 8 total posts
ConSpiracy has

1 count it 1

total post.
diddin has 6 total posts.
Gandalf / Magic Trainer has 2 total posts.
Ooba has 6 total posts.
Spirituality has 7 total posts.
T-Bone has 7 total posts
Thor has 9 total posts
I have 10 total posts

So there are a WHOLE BUNCH of people who would be lurker scum material by DGB’s ‘standard’. Yet only tajo gets called out.

Just plain bad.

I am aware of that.

Of these players, only tajo

self-admits

to a lurkerscum meta.

I get the feeling that DGB might not have noticed this had tajo not been on her team. Plus, as was said by many at the time, it is curious that she focused on tajo in particular. And then she jumps off for the ooba wagon.

TOWNIES THAT TOWN VERY TOWNILY

DrippingGoofball
KanyeKnowsBest
xRECKONERx
Chronopie
sensfan Amarap (Parama, Slaxx)

UNWASHED MASSES

Spirituality (Esurio, Imaginality)
ConSpiracy
T-Bone
Baby Spice
Ellibereth
Friend
Diddin
DestinedCreation (Fate+SleepyKrew)
Amrun

COMPLETELY BONKERS

MagnaofIllusion
Magic Trainer Gandalf5166

SCUM

GreyMarble (GreyICE, llamarble)

OMG, and this scummy post above is from a HYDRA??? It took two heads to come up with that much scum?

Thor
Ooba
PopularT

And this is the only time she mentions tajo again.

@MoI:

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I always keep my head low on the first day I enter a game, be in D1 or replacing in.

On that record, I'm up for a Baby Spice lynch.

Vote: Baby Spice

.

L-1 I believe.

This makes me think he's probably not buddies with BS. I don't think he had even read the game at this point, he wouldn't put his buddy at L1 that quick.

Spirituality's other head makes a first appearance! Hi guys!

I have a town read on the marble hydra and somewhat weaker town reads on tajo (despite being wrong about marble), reck, and spyrex right now. Luxury reads scummy to me but the speed of that wagon is giving me bad vibes. I think the ideal place for our vote right now is on one of the quiet sheepy voters, so:

VOTE: Ooba

You have

no

reads? In a large game?

This whole thing is making the bunny/tajo slot look really bad........

We still have a scumread on ooba from D1, so this ooba wagon looks good to us.

Unvote, vote: ooba

@Reck: Your other points against Thor are okay but the 'why me' one, is actually a 'why not me' if you look at it. Which isn't scummy.


Townreads: Amarap, BabySpice, ConSpiracy, DGB, diddin, kanyeknowsbest, Greymarble, MagnaofIllusion, xRECKONERx
Unsure: Amrun, Magic Trainer, populartajo, T-Bone, Thor
Suspects: Chronopie (esurio's read on him), DestinedCreation (Amarap's case in 333), Friend (D1 claiming stuff plus reason for joining ooba wagon), gandalf5166 (lurkerscum + D1 apathy about claiming), ooba (D1 stuff plus DGB's case)

This list doesn't change much, other than that tajo has moved to null for some reason..........

Re. her reason for targeting you Reck, her stated reason isn't necessarily her actual reason. And the 'don't claim bulletproof' thing seems null to me too.
But you say she showed townie excitement rather than null excitement, I guess I'll give that some weight. Especially considering your compound-buddy presumably agrees or else they'd speak up about it.


Hm.

Unvote, vote: Bunnylover

* tajo supported claiming D1 without reason
* tajo jumped on Luxury wagon without reason
* asks ooba a question in 749 and doesn't follow up when ooba doesn't answer
* calls Friend and gandalf scum in 817 but holds off voting on either
* fishes for atom info despite the 'no H or C scum left' being discredited
* no scumhunting yet today
* general lurkishness

Hmmmmm......

Scum wouldn't kill me.

Not quite as true when there's multiple scum teams hunting each other.

But a lynch on my is pretty wasteful as I am town.
I guess a vig on me would be better since you won't waste our lynch, but it would still be bad as it would hit a townie =/.

Statement: Lyching Bunnylover is bad, because he is town.
Major premise: If Bunnylover is town, lynching him is bad.
Minor premise:

Bunnylover is town.

Conclusion: Lynching Bunnylover is bad.

I've highlighted the flaw in this argument for you.

So imaginality and I agree that it seems likely that Greymarble blocked Thor instead of Reck as he claimed. It easily explains how both Reck and T-Bone ended up getting results, and though I know little about either of them (Grey/Llamarble) I recall hearing somewhere or other (from Team Mafia, maybe?) that it's in Grey's meta to lie/gambit as town, and he expressed suspicion of Thor in-thread, so it all seems to fit as far as we're concerned.

In addition, we don't think Thor or anyone in the T-Bone compound has anything to gain from lying about their actions in this situation as either alignment.

@Bunny: That's utter nonsense. For one thing, if that was true, our block on Gandalf wouldn't have gone through. And your only read is basically a fence-sit on Gandalf, and you dodge half of MoI's question (why aren't you voting)?

Moar bunny votes pls.

Yep, to me too, Baby Spice's 'confirmed' comment comes across as a scumslip. And considering she talked about confirmed groups in other games, that makes it less likely this was just an accidental echoing of Reck's use of the word - it appears she was actively thinking of them as confirmed, a mental slip scum are more likely to make than town.

Checking her iso, she also engaged in a little bit of SK spec in iso4. Her other posts looked okay to me, first time round and on re-reading too. At most, there's perhaps a slight sense of trying to appear helpful more so than actually trying to find scum. But still, the 'confirmed' slip is good reason for a vote.

Unvote; vote: Baby Spice

That said, Bunny is still a scummyBunny... and now this roleblock stuff appears to have been cleared up, I'd still like to hear everyone else's thoughts on our case on Bunnylover.

Hey MoI. We'd be happy to change our vote back to Bunnylover if there was support for that wagon. Care to put some action behind that apparent read of yours?

I'm personally fine with some good ol' fashioned lurker pressure, but I'll do imaginality the courtesy of discussing it with him first since last time we spoke about the DGB/ani slot was a while ago and we both had a town read on her then.

I do think lynch on actively scummy person is > lynch on lurking scummy person though, due to relational tells and etc, so I'd still rather lynch Bunny if we can get some other people to see the light.

If you are calling this down to a lurker lynch then please do me the favor of looking at my case presented on DGB Day 2 and telling me what exactly is wrong with it.

We weren't saying it's solely a lurker lynch, more that it's a lynch of a lurker, if that makes sense. In other words, we agree there's more to the ani case than lurking, but because he's been less active than Bunnylover, there are fewer tells/connections to mine from an ani scum flip than from a Bunny scum flip.

These last few posts make me think the opposite of what I've been thinking........ that Spirituality is trying to redirect the lynch from scumbuddy ani onto town bunny. It doesn't make sense that his top two suspects would both be scum with him. Of course, his vote is on BS at this point...... vote town FOS buddies?

Overall, doing this makes me much more confident in the gut feeling I was getting from bunny.......... there's no real way for us to know why BS's bond with Thor might have failed. And there's no real reason for BS to lie about who she bonded with. All of her potential buddies except for Katsuki ended up in compounds N0, so I doubt there was some pure red compound.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Overall, doing this makes me much more confident in the gut feeling I was getting from bunny.......... there's no real way for us to know why BS's bond with Thor might have failed. And there's no real reason for BS to lie about who she bonded with. All of her potential buddies except for Katsuki ended up in compounds N0, so I doubt there was some pure red compound.

Point 1 - You are incorrect about this - Katsuki did end up in a Compound Night 1 - she bonded with Chrono and Ellie.

Point 2 - I'm not sure what you are saying here. Do you think Bunny or Baby are more likely to be scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok Gandalf here's what I'm thinking in regards to BabySpice and Bunnylover regarding interactions.

1. Scum have proven to want to spread themselves out among compounds. No known compound has had more than 1 scum of any particular color at a time (Formaldehyde had Purple Thor and Red Spirituality, Amrun was Purple scum in Reck's, Kats was Red scum in Chrono's, Conspiracy and Sens / Amarap were opposing colors). So this is a huge point in favor of Bunnylover as Town because DGB and Tajo selecting each other as Compound targets while Redscum partners N0 is a glaring departure from this. Yes, each color couldn't know for certain what the N0 compounding would lead to but the results show that they had a preferene to gather information via Compounds. I don't see DGB / Tajo not going along with that.

2. Look at how DGB / Ani and Spirituality vote the two. DGB to some degree and Spirit make 'cases' and really push the Tajo / Bunnylover slot. Ani and Spirituatlity both vote BabySpice but it is in a very half-hearted, bussing way IMO. Neither one does anything to actually push BabySpice via questioning. Look at Spirituality in particular Day 3 ... while their vote languished on Baby while it was the top wagon they kept pushing me to join the Bunnylover wagon they had earlier tried to push.

At this point I'm still waiting on Babyspice to actually answer my last set of questions before I proceed any further.

[Bunnylover]

@Gandalf: Just because I can scumhunt doesn't mean I'm good at it

[gandalf5166]

Overall, doing this makes me much more confident in the gut feeling I was getting from bunny.......... there's no real way for us to know why BS's bond with Thor might have failed. And there's no real reason for BS to lie about who she bonded with. All of her potential buddies except for Katsuki ended up in compounds N0, so I doubt there was some pure red compound.

Point 1 - You are incorrect about this - Katsuki did end up in a Compound Night 1 - she bonded with Chrono and Ellie.

Well, that proves my point. Why would BS lie about who she bonded with?

Point 2 - I'm not sure what you are saying here. Do you think Bunny or Baby are more likely to be scum?

Bunny.

Ok Gandalf here's what I'm thinking in regards to BabySpice and Bunnylover regarding interactions.

1. Scum have proven to want to spread themselves out among compounds. No known compound has had more than 1 scum of any particular color at a time (Formaldehyde had Purple Thor and Red Spirituality, Amrun was Purple scum in Reck's, Kats was Red scum in Chrono's, Conspiracy and Sens / Amarap were opposing colors). So this is a huge point in favor of Bunnylover as Town because DGB and Tajo selecting each other as Compound targets while Redscum partners N0 is a glaring departure from this. Yes, each color couldn't know for certain what the N0 compounding would lead to but the results show that they had a preferene to gather information via Compounds. I don't see DGB / Tajo not going along with that.

2. Look at how DGB / Ani and Spirituality vote the two. DGB to some degree and Spirit make 'cases' and really push the Tajo / Bunnylover slot. Ani and Spirituatlity both vote BabySpice but it is in a very half-hearted, bussing way IMO. Neither one does anything to actually push BabySpice via questioning. Look at Spirituality in particular Day 3 ... while their vote languished on Baby while it was the top wagon they kept pushing me to join the Bunnylover wagon they had earlier tried to push.

At this point I'm still waiting on Babyspice to actually answer my last set of questions before I proceed any further.

1. This point doesn't really matter, because once again, we don't know how the compounding works. There are any number of ways this might have worked out. If DGB selected kanye and then kanye selected tajo, for example(well, more likely it happened the other way around). Most compounds happened accidentally, I don't see why they couldn't have ended up in the same compound on accident. It slightly lowers the probability of them being scum together, but I don't think it's a big deal.
2. I would say the opposite. They really push the slots, but they aren't really looking for a lynch. DGB was forced to take the tajo wagon seriously because she was being pressured for singling him out. And then it looks like the case on bunny is being taken seriously, oh look over here at this Baby Spice wagon doesn't it look tasty. And once again: Do you really think you would bus your partner before you even read the game? Or even at a point where you could reasonably say you hadn't read the game. If anybody asks you what you thought about the wagon later, you just hide behind the fact that you hadn't read yet, and you can't really say whether you would have gotten on it if you had been read up, etc etc.

[gandalf5166]

@Gandalf: Just because I can scumhunt doesn't mean I'm good at it

And see, it's posts like this that make me think bunny is really overplaying her meta.

[Baby Spice]

Sorry, have to be quick.

Bunny, I've buddied MoI every game since that Zoraster mess. Partly to avoid screaming caps lock (which I hate myself when I do) but by far mostly because he's usually right on with his reads. Find a good town read and follow it is good strategy. Done it with Thor too, though I didn't get the town read from him to do it this game.

Tajo obvscum was more off of what others said later in the game and being a bit anoyed at Bunny's 'obvscum' comments concerning me with little to no support or reason.

Calling my votes againzt Ani/DGB into question is fine, but please compare them with my Thor voting. To me looking back, they 'look' similar in how and when they occured. If you wAnt to call one bussing then please show how the other wasn't since Thor and Ani were different scum groups.

Dram, please explain how bonding works

All I know is those are the bond attempts I submitted.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Gandalf

– When I have more time later today I will respond to your thoughts.

--

Bunny, I've buddied MoI every game since that Zoraster mess. Partly to avoid screaming caps lock (which I hate myself when I do) but by far mostly because he's usually right on with his reads. Find a good town read and follow it is good strategy. Done it with Thor too, though I didn't get the town read from him to do it this game.

1. What do you mean “since that Zoraster mess”? I’ve never played in a Zoraster game. Do you mean Percy’s Stars Aligned 3?
2. If you do mean SA3 saying you have buddied me since then is a lie. We’ve played in two games together since SA3 that I can recall off the top of my head. In RC’s Metropolis cluster-fuck we were teammates and not only didn’t you buddy you incorrectly purposefully outed me to Town. Then in Battle for Olympus you called me scum based on my ‘meta’. That's not buddying at all. Why lie about something so easy to check?

Tajo obvscum was more off of what others said later in the game and being a bit anoyed at Bunny's 'obvscum' comments concerning me with little to no support or reason.

Show me quotes where people have called tajo obv-scum since DGB made her horrible lurker attack. I want quotes and post numbers.

Calling my votes againzt Ani/DGB into question is fine, but please compare them with my Thor voting. To me looking back, they 'look' similar in how and when they occured. If you wAnt to call one bussing then please show how the other wasn't since Thor and Ani were different scum groups.

Um, whut?

I call Ani possible bussing because he would be your possible partner. Thor can’t be bussing since he was Purple and they are all dead.

What about ‘looking’ similar makes the Ani vote less likely to be bussing? If anything it means you drop weak votes whenever you do vote, regardless of alignment of the target.

[Baby Spice]

ebwop
ReaperCharlie metropolis revisited.

[MagnaofIllusion]

ebwop
ReaperCharlie metropolis revisited.

Ok ... what games have you buddied me since then? Links please.

Also ... I still want quotes to others besides DGB calling tajo obv-scum as requested above.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - I'll be V/LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

Note to self - Look at who ooba suspected the day before he was lynched given Re-scum shot at him. See where he stood on Baby and Bunny.

--

Well, that proves my point. Why would BS lie about who she bonded with?

1. This point doesn't really matter, because once again, we don't know how the compounding works. There are any number of ways this might have worked out. If DGB selected kanye and then kanye selected tajo, for example(well, more likely it happened the other way around). Most compounds happened accidentally, I don't see why they couldn't have ended up in the same compound on accident. It slightly lowers the probability of them being scum together, but I don't think it's a big deal.

It doesn’t prove your point at all. Perhaps scum can’t bond and kill in the same Night. That would explain why Benmage was also unbounded. Yes, I understand we don’t have full knowledge of the Compounding mechanics. I also think dimissing any conclusions based on them is rather short sighted.

Chances are it is a fairly easy to use system for dramonic’s sanity purposes as opposed to the level of complexity BabySpice is espousing.

Althought it is working of probabilities (and thus an empty argument) I find the odds that Tajo and DGB partners would end up in the same compound slim. As I stated .. scum has clearly demonstrated that they wanted to be in different compounds. It seems pretty implausible that one of them would target Kayne, Kayne would target the other and Tajo would not target someone else that could result in a bigger compound or prevent those three from joining.

BabySpice as scum has every reason to lie … scum do that.

Also while we are on the subject – DGB hates to bus. Especially early. KGB Mafia is perfect example of this. I can dig up quotes from that game to demonstrate this if needed. So I find a Day 2 ‘Tajo is lurkerscum’ push from DGB is very unlikely to be a bus. And look at the game environment. Not only do you have an rival scum team and a Serial killer lurking around possibly thining your ranks you have Compound Vigs helping doing it to. Very little chance DGB chooses to immediately bus Day 2.

2. I would say the opposite. They really push the slots, but they aren't really looking for a lynch.

I disagree. You don’t build the level of case Spirituality did on Bunny’s slot and not actually want that lynch. Especially in light of the complete lack of case that Spirituality had when they jumped on Baby (aka a bus).

DGB was forced to take the tajo wagon seriously because she was being pressured for singling him out.

Actually DGB pretty much abandoned the Tajo lynch after I correctly blasted her for how bad it was and jumped immediately to an ooba case. I would expect scum-DGB bussing partner for cred (which is bad play in Multiball anyway, IMO) to fight more strongly for a lynch she knows is 100% scum.

And then it looks like the case on bunny is being taken seriously, oh look over here at this Baby Spice wagon doesn't it look tasty.

Can you show me where the was evidence the Bunny push was gaining traction? I only see a max wagon of 1 on dram’s VoteCounts (ISO 21)

Also – show me where either Ani or Spirituality actually push the BabySpice lynch. They don’t. The jump on with little reasoning, coast and take every chance to push alternative candidates as I lambast the wagon as bad (which it was from my perspective at that point).

And once again: Do you really think you would bus your partner before you even read the game? Or even at a point where you could reasonably say you hadn't read the game. If anybody asks you what you thought about the wagon later, you just hide behind the fact that you hadn't read yet, and you can't really say whether you would have gotten on it if you had been read up, etc etc.

Explain what you mean here because I have no idea what you are talking about regarding bussing without reading.

[gandalf5166]

My point is, when ani voted for BS he had replaced in two days ago. He hadn't told us he had read the game by that point. I find it unlikely he had, but since he's scum, that's irrelevant. In his shoes, would you really have jumped onto your partner's lynch when you could just ignore it and say you hadn't read up yet so you didn't have a strong opinion? That said, I'm coming around to your thinking on most of the rest of it, with the exception being that I doubt BS really is lying about her N0 target. Scum lie, but not without reason.

[MagnaofIllusion]

My point is, when ani voted for BS he had replaced in two days ago. He hadn't told us he had read the game by that point. I find it unlikely he had, but since he's scum, that's irrelevant. In his shoes, would you really have jumped onto your partner's lynch when you could just ignore it and say you hadn't read up yet so you didn't have a strong opinion? That said, I'm coming around to your thinking on most of the rest of it, with the exception being that I doubt BS really is lying about her N0 target. Scum lie, but not without reason.

Your point on not reading the game doesn't make much sense since Ani's role PM should state her partners. Or hell, even a cursory glance at the Mafia QT would tell Ani that information. So I don't see the 'Not Reading' point as really relevant. It very much was probably a bus, IMO.

Well I can't know for certain why BabySpice would be lying about trying to compound with Thor. But I very much doubt the claim is true given what we know about compounds.

I'm still waiting for BabySpice to respond to the many questions I have out there for her.

[gandalf5166]

No, I'm saying why would he bus when he didn't have to?

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, I'm saying why would he bus when he didn't have to?

Ok, I see where you are going with that.

Hard to say. Ani wasn't in a great position IMO so bussing might have been a last ditch effort to get some Town credibility.

[Baby Spice]

Not sure why I should bother. You both have decided I'm lieing, which I'm not, and for whatever reason the mod wont answer my questions that would show the posibility of otherwise. ie: How bonding works.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not sure why I should bother. You both have decided I'm lieing, which I'm not, and for whatever reason the mod wont answer my questions that would show the posibility of otherwise. ie: How bonding works.

There is a whole bunch of stuff you have said that I have asked you about. For example links to all the Post Metroplis games where you have buddied me as you claimed.

This "Why Bother" attitude is basically playing against your wincon regardless of what side you are on when the lynch today is either you or Bunny.

Same goes for you Bunny ... this sit back and let MoI +Gandalf do all the work isn't playing to your wincon if you are Town.

[Baby Spice]

I named the gamed. Look them up yourself since I'm stuck phone posting and trying to cut/paste is a right bastard.

As for wincons, nothing I say will make you change your mind that I'm lieing, and therefor scum, so why say anything?
(as evidenced by Bunny's last few posts and no follow up)

[gandalf5166]

I named the gamed. Look them up yourself since I'm stuck phone posting and trying to cut/paste is a right bastard.

As for wincons, nothing I say will make you change your mind that I'm lieing, and therefor scum, so why say anything?
(as evidenced by Bunny's last few posts and no follow up)

uh........ yeah, you very well can say something to change our minds. You do realize that if you DONT convince us we're wrong, you lose, right? Regardless of your wincon. Your #1 priority right now should be making sure we lynch bunny and not you.