Open 496: Ryuk is the protagonist

[Prophylaxis]

Obviously I'm pretty set on Elyse.

I'll do a interaction chart soon with the AH slot.

Vote Count
Elyse-1-Titus
Titus-1-Elyse

Not Voting: Prophylaxis, Tajun

[Elyse]

Why are you set on me? It's pretty damn obvious Titus is the last scum. I know she's your friend or whatever but now she's saying I'm scum for strawman arguments and not playing the game?

Please. My arguments aren't strawmans and I sure as hell WOULD be playing the game if I was scum. Is that some kind of joke? Your desperation, Titus, REEKS of scumminess. Scum is my favorite faction and I sure as hell would be going hard in MyLo. Like you are.

And saying that I refuse to do a PBPA because Antihero posted one in the QT (wtf?) is idiotic. You get on my case for making assumptions and then spew out that shit?

LOL

[Titus]

No. I was saying Anti-Hero provided you a script. Doing a PBPA would veer you off-script that Anti-Hero provided or you discussed. That's the only reason I can think anyone (town or scum) would refuse to do a PBPA.

[Elyse]

It's definitely not because PBPAs are annoying to do, ineffective, and WIFOMy. DEFINITELY NOT.

I'm not scum for not complying with your style of play.

[Tajun]

1) I can't really respond to one and it is vague. I am in a current game where RBD replaced in but I definitely have no grasp on her meta. Are the things RBD missed objective or subjective according to meta. If you could grab that, I'd appreciate it. It's fucking hard to respond to vague assertions and innuendo.

2) I have been going along with the crowd somewhat. However, I haven't been PASSIVELY agreeing. I've been debating and people convinced me that they were right to take their course of action. When I knew AH was scum, I stood up and took the lead.

3) PoE suggests that you've assumed that I'm scum and are reasoning backwards. There's literally nothing in Elyse's ISO that screams town, especially her recent play and strawman arguments.

4) At the time, I believed the PRs were clear. It's a logical and consistent belief I had until corrected by the night actions. If I was "passively going with the flow", then I wouldn't be putting forth rigid beliefs like the one you posted.

5) Look for Elyse Anti-Hero interaction. Look for a strong stance on PRs. You won't find any. Instead, you'll find resistance to massclaim and other town helpful tools.

6) I absolutely disagree on the scum team organization. The scum team would have to have an organized plan to keep the PRs alive that long. What happens after being busted? What happens if Player X does this? Does that? The fact that the scum isn't obvious to you suggests methodical actions. They've nightkilled almost every night, despite the heavy replacing my slot has had. Even now, Elyse's wall on me looks like she was holding posts back for this scenario. What kind of player refuses to do a PBPA in this situation as town? None. A PBPA gets Elyse off script from the strawman arguments laid out by Anti-Hero in their scum qt. (I'm presuming the last part). That's precisely why she won't do it. Yeah, I cannot prove Elyse has a QT but the refusal to answer questions is a pretty big fucking red flag that Elyse is done playing the game because she's convinced you she's town Tajun.

1) It's only vague if you didn't bother to read the part where I said "I outlined this somewhere" and look for that.

RBD's screwups in setup analysis were very very non RBD-like, and quite explicable by assuming that her buddy was the one who fake-claimed. And she didn't even mention the fact that getting two R's in setup creation was pretty unlikely (R's being the least common letter to pick)

Here it is for those not inclined to look it up themselves. RBD is one of the best setup analysers that I have ever met. The fact that she didn't point out how unlikely getting two R's are alone is sufficient for me to be suspicious. The fact that she assumed it was one R (originally, until I fixed that) leads me to believe she didn't bother to read it properly because she knew very well it was her partner who claimed it.

2) You have been going after people who appear vulnerable and lynchable rather than scummy. This is sketchy as hell.

3) Bullshit. I outlined why I thought Elyse and Prophylaxis are town in post 1587 and 1612. They were good arguments, and I stick by them. I'll add "Elyse's offer to trade Paschendale's death for a MC" to that list, that is

not

typical scum behaviour.

4) There was no reason to believe that, and you were pushing it fairly well. Your second point is ridiculous, the only time scum wouldn't be interested in going with the flow is when their buddy is in danger, as it would be if we started going after PRs.

5) Massclaim day 2 was of questionable benefit, and most people are against early MCs. Elyse is very

very

clearly not a setup attacker. This doesn't make her scum.

6) Are you serious? The first chance they took they killed off our most useful role, followed by an absurd night three kill. Their targets have been scatterbrained at best. It's not obvious to me who the scum are from NKs because its all bloody WIFOM. FTR, goodmorning is

definitely

who RBD would NK given the chance. I doubt very much that AH gave anyone a list to follow. I guarantee it didn't say "you should strawman". I agree with her comments about you brushing off her questions with crap answers. And for the record, if I can't convince Prophylaxis that you are scum, Elyse is fucked regardless of which team she is on. He holds the balance of power, all I have is my voice, so if that is her "scum plan" then she is completely clueless.

[Tajun]

VOTE: Titus

I stand by this. Prophylaxis, if you are scum we're finished anyway, so you might as well hammer it. If not, I'm game for the debate, but you're going to have to give me an awfully good reason to switch off.

[Prophylaxis]

Confirming myself as town.

[Elyse]

Lol so now Titus is confscum.

Cool.

[Titus]

1) Tajun, you have plenty of walls and while conducting major business affairs I didn't have time to look. Sorry. Without looking your statement was indeed vague. If you give me some sort if indicator to help find your post, I'd be glad to respond.

2) I got after those I believe are scummy, regardless of how good or bad it makes me look. I don't really give two shits if you FoS me based on who I have thought was scum. It's bad play. Look at the reasons why I FoSed them. Elyse FoSed Paschendale to the grave, but yet you have a problem with who I have FoSed. Hardly makes sense to me.

3) The reason you find Elyse town is bullshit. Trading to me is the height of illogical behavior and an appeal to emotion. Scummy as all get out. It said that Elyse wasn't against Massclaim. Rather, she's against massclaim until the threats against her had been eliminated. The fact that her post convinces you that she is town makes no sense to me whatsoever. Town should rely on logic and facts to persuade. If one must resort to bargaining, they are either scum or must be resigned to be wholly unpersuasive. Elyse appeared to be neither at the time.

4) There was reason to believe the PRs were clear if you believed at the time (as I did) that AA9 and Elyse were the scums. It explained the irrational kills by the scums and why Psyche got no heals off at all. Psyche didn't get heals off because she was being framed to be scum. Cops living as long as Anti-Hero was suspicious but to me the strategy seemed clear. Get rid of the PRs, lurk the game into oblivion. I was wrong that Anti-Hero was indeed scum but the theory made sense based on what I knew at the time.

5) All five tells me is that you are not a setup analyzer. I am a setup analyzer so I like RBD's playstyle very much. Check www.sc2mafia.com for examples. That site has a lot of setup speculation as well as logical deductions. Days are much shorter than here though.

6) I am serious. AH's gambit suggests a plan of self-sacrifice to setup his partner for a good endgame. Of course AH's plan to Elyse didn't think she should strawman. No one gives that type of advise. The fact Elyse cannot form a rational coherent argument suggests that she doesn't know the script well enough to elaborate. If you think I have brushed something off, attempt to rephrase it. I do not brush off questions for no reason. Prophy also thought Elyse's questions to me were crap and her answers were a strawman. From my POV, you are suffering from confirmation bias.



--------------

Prophy, is that AH interaction done yet?

[Titus]

Rereading... I realized part of 3 got cut off.

3) Elyse appeared to be neither at the time to the game players. That should have been an alarm bell to those in the game. We knew she was not failing to be persuasive regarding Paschendale (he was the lynch), so therefore Elyse must have been scum. It's the only rational position left.

[Prophylaxis]

It's almost done.

Titus, can you give me a list of your most completed town game and your most completed scum game? (preferably you're lynched as scum)

I need to skim the tone.

[Titus]

La Isla De La Mere (most recent town game, survived to the end) http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30361
508 (Night killed as scum, but most recent scum game) http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=29903
513 (Nightless, lynched as scum) http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=30255

[Titus]

Sorry for including two scum games. I wasn't lynched in my most recent scum game. 513 is probably more apt but it isn't as recent. 513 and 508 provide the recency. 513 is where I was lynched as scum. I figured by including three I would fulfill whatever you wanted. If not, feel free to ask.

[Prophylaxis]

Thanks.

I'll skim through those when I have the interaction chart completed.

[Titus]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30562 -- This is a town game. It's the only finished game where I've gambited at all on this site. Just in case it's relevant. It finished within the past hour.

[Tajun]

1) Post 1587. I quoted from it. The keys used to find it are ctrl-f.

2) You went after everyone when it looked like they were going down. Elyse attacked Pasch consistently and evenly for a day and a half, even when no one was listening, you switch every time the wind starts blowing.

3) Elyse was against

day 2

massclaim. That is beyond clear. She was also for Pasch's lynch, and was willing to compromise one to get the other. And I just remembered Elyse's soft vanilla claim, which is yet another reason she is obv town. Bargaining is a very town trait.

4) The PR's were never clear, not even bloody close. The NKs made no sense in that framework, and there were three reasonable scenarios in play. If you thought they were clear, I sure hope you don't depend too heavily on your setup spec skills.

5) Fuck you. This town would be dead in the goddamn water if I hadn't been here to fix the setup spec day 2 and 3. The massclaim day 2 was of questionable benefit, although I don't regret my participation in it. I don't think it hurt us, but it didn't help a lot either. Would have been better with more PRs. My setup spec was good this game, and RBD never answered my question as to what the net benefit of MC would be with 3 PR tokens (which, yes, I predicted in advance). On that note, I'm the one who prevented AH's plan for a lynch plus a hide from going through, saving the town from a loss. Eat setup spec, smartass.

6) Elyse has about 30 games under her belt. I think she is capable of forming her own plan. Her meta matches her town just fine. In 1681 your answers were pretty soft, "No, you are scum" doesn't count. Calling things assumptions doesn't make them wrong. AH's original gambit would have screwed us, his second was clearly a sac, but what choice did he have at that point? If there is anyone staying on script it is you, your arguments are sounding more and more like dodges as the day goes on.

[Titus]

1) "RBD's screwups in setup analysis were very very non RBD-like, and quite explicable by assuming that her buddy was the one who fake-claimed. And she didn't even mention the fact that getting two R's in setup creation was pretty unlikely (R's being the least common letter to pick)" That's where you talk about that post. I have NEVER finished a game with RBD. I cannot know if his setups are RBD like or not. As for not mentioning a fact, well you seem to be fully capable of reading and analyzing.

2) Yeah, Elyse had her mislynch picked out while you're attacking me for reading and responding. If I tunnelled like Elyse did, it would mirror my scum games. See Open 512 and Open 513. I listen to people and discuss rationally as town.

3) Bargaining to me is a very SCUM trait if the player is persuading people to do what they want anyway. It sets up future mislynches in the game. I think this is a point we will just disagree on. When someone starts bargaining with me, I see them as scummy.

4) The NKs made total sense in the framework of framing the PRs.

5) The town would be fucking dead if I didn't get Prophy to replace into AA9's slot. I bent over backwards to help the town in ways that are verifiable. Mass claim helped us a lot because it narrowed Elyse's options into tunnelling me. Look now, she's STILL not playing but relying on you to just argue for her.

6) I am capable of forming my own plan as well. If I actually see something that's not just an assumption (like what you have posted), I can give an intelligent response. Your posts are looking more and more like confirmation bias rather than actual constructive argumentation. You are picking facts, having conclusions and ignoring that two players can see the game absolutely differently. You say AH's original gambit would have screwed us. Who was his biggest opponent when throwing out these gambits? Right. That was me.

[Elyse]

@Titus
Your argument is full of holes. I'll help to point them out:

1. Tajun is not saying that you should know RBD's setup spec was unlike her. He's saying it was unlike her from what he knows, and he's right. She's almost always 100% correct and her flaws really show with this speculation. (As a side note, I feel proud I called her out as scum correctly right when she suggested massclaim )
2. So you're saying switching from person to person is less scummy than staying on top of a scumread? This is completely false. I could understand if I was tunneling Pasch for the whole entire game, but it was only a day and half.
3. Bargaining is NOT a scum trait. What does scum even have to bargain? Nothing. VTs have nothing to lose and PRs have their claims to back them up. Scum has everything to lose with bargaining. You are trying to pass this off as theory disagreement when in fact you are just wrong.
4. Why would scum frame PRs

when Antihero pretended to be one?

It doesn't make any sense and you are trying to pass off the clusterfuck of NKs as some huge plot when it makes much more sense as just a clusterfuck. And why would "framing the PRs" point to me-scum rather than you-scum when we're both VTs? Is it because you're NOT a VT?
5. Trying to get towncred for getting a replacement is so fucking desperate lmao. Getting a friend to replace in and crawling up his asshole helps YOU. But try again?
6. You keep saying that I'm "not playing the game" and letting Tajun do all my work for me. But what's really scummy is that you are continuing to argue with me when I'm supposed to be confscum to you. Why are you wasting your time arguing with someone that you know is scum? It doesn't make much sense. You should be strictly convincing Tajun, yet you keep trying to get me involved. It makes no sense from scum.

[Titus]

1. Elyse, if you are right, then that's something I cannot even begin to respond to and is a strawman. That is wholly uncharacteristic of Tajun. Also, you're saying what the hell Tajun knows. That's improper intellectually and shows that you're trying to force me into a scum slot with poor argument.
2. Elyse, bullshit. My moves were all REASONED. You're tunnel on Paschendale was because.... oh wait I can't remember a decent reason. You act as if you tunnelling Paschedale for a limited time was a good thing. You only stopped because Paschendale was dead. The analouge would be me saying "Let's lynch Anti-Hero, he's scum". He's dead. You'd probably STILL be tunnelling that slot if he was alive. You absolutely ignored the evidence I provided you that my scum games lack foundation in reason.
3. No. It is scummy to bargain. Get a mislynch and then you have time to plan out what your response to massclaim will be with Anti-Hero. It's a perfect move for Scum Elyse there. Bargaining gets through mislynches. Logical persuasion ensures we get scum. I am absolutely RIGHT.
4. You are not listening to what I was saying. My theory of the scum kills made sense based on what I knew then. I was logically observing the night kills and trying to figure out who the scum was based off the night kills. Obviously, the theory was proven wrong. When it was, I said so.
5. No. The game would be dead without me. Saying that was absolutely relevant to the point Tajun was making. Tajun was saying the game would be dead in the water if not for her fixing things. It's not an attempt to "crawl up Prophy's asshole". I don't buddy. Nothing in my posts has been buddying. I absolutely don't kiss ass. If I would, maybe you'd be lynched already and we'd be saying good game. It's just not my play style.
6. I am wanting you to speak so that Tajun has something to analyze and get out of the confirmation bias she is in. You have been content to let Elyse do the heavy lifting here until I repeatedly call you out on it. Lurking makes total fucking sense as scum. That's why there's a policy lynch for lurkers.

[Titus]

Oh and you should really reread point 6. It's a total fucking slip. You just said with your last sentence, "It [trying to get Elyse involved] makes no total sense from scum."

[Elyse]

I meant town. That's a typo, not a slip.

I'll respond to your points now, but you sound very cocky and arrogant starting with either "Elyse, yes, or no" and you aren't like that as town.

[Titus]

No. That was a slip.

I direct my posts to particular players all the time. Go on. Flail more. You slipped.

[Elyse]

1. Elyse, if you are right, then that's something I cannot even begin to respond to and is a strawman. That is wholly uncharacteristic of Tajun. Also, you're saying what the hell Tajun knows. That's improper intellectually and shows that you're trying to force me into a scum slot with poor argument.

I can start a strawman drinking game in this thread with the amount of times you toss that word around. It's become meaningless from you. And yes I'm saying what Tajun knows

because he's already said that.

2. Elyse, bullshit. My moves were all REASONED. You're tunnel on Paschendale was because.... oh wait I can't remember a decent reason. You act as if you tunnelling Paschedale for a limited time was a good thing. You only stopped because Paschendale was dead. The analouge would be me saying "Let's lynch Anti-Hero, he's scum". He's dead. You'd probably STILL be tunnelling that slot if he was alive. You absolutely ignored the evidence I provided you that my scum games lack foundation in reason.

If you can't see any reasons I've given for the Pasch lynch, you need to get you head examined. YOUR MOVES AREN'T BECAUSE OF

YOUR

reasons. That's the whole point. You go wherever the wind blows using everyone else's reasons. Your early ISO is devoid of content and full of piggybacking and calling for more attention. And your "meta" is self-incriminating since your reasons this game are complete shit. You're just digging yourself deeper and deeper.

3. No. It is scummy to bargain. Get a mislynch and then you have time to plan out what your response to massclaim will be with Anti-Hero. It's a perfect move for Scum Elyse there. Bargaining gets through mislynches. Logical persuasion ensures we get scum. I am absolutely RIGHT.

So rather than push any mislynch normally or even just let the game go on as is, it would be smarter for me, as scum, to draw attention to myself and put my life in the game out on stake, for ONE mislynch. You have got to be kidding me.

5. No. The game would be dead without me. Saying that was absolutely relevant to the point Tajun was making. Tajun was saying the game would be dead in the water if not for her fixing things. It's not an attempt to "crawl up Prophy's asshole". I don't buddy. Nothing in my posts has been buddying. I absolutely don't kiss ass. If I would, maybe you'd be lynched already and we'd be saying good game. It's just not my play style.

Oh it absolutely is the way you play this time around. And how the fuck does "the game would be dead without me" equate to town. Tajun has kept the game alive with his activity and content. You did so by calling in a replacement. That is something anyone of any alignment can do.

6. I am wanting you to speak so that Tajun has something to analyze and get out of the confirmation bias she is in. You have been content to let Elyse do the heavy lifting here until I repeatedly call you out on it. Lurking makes total fucking sense as scum. That's why there's a policy lynch for lurkers.

(You said my name instead of Tajun. SCUM!) I haven't lurked this entire game, thank you very much. And my point is that your attitude does not seem like you are treating me as confscum. Like it's really silly that you're arguing points with me

when I'm supposed to be scum from your eyes.

P-edit: LOL why are you saying that now? I'm already conf-scum to you.
But no that is not a slip. Not even close. Even if I was scum, I'm arguing as if you are scum, which would once again, make that a TYPO.

[Titus]

Elyse, I argue with you to point out your fallacies to others. No one really thinks they are going to have someone confess.

I think your push on Paschendale was bullshit. My reasons are present when I post. If you had a problem, why not say so then? Oh right you were herpalurking and holding posts to attempt to mislynch me.

Now, your argument is bad. As scum, it is smarter to bargain than be stubborn. Town doesn't need self-preservation and therefore no need to bargain. Town definitely doesn't need to bargain when getting the lynch hey want.

The last sentence in 1717 is a slip. You know I am town and you know my actions make so sense as scum.

Let's let Prophy sort out if he's being buddied or not. We can go round and rond there. No intelligent debat is likely to come from accusations and denals.

[Elyse]

I think your push on Paschendale was bullshit. My reasons are present when I post. If you had a problem, why not say so then? Oh right you were herpalurking and holding posts to attempt to mislynch me.

This is basically a scum confession. This bit right here is terrible. You say that I didn't mention your bad reasons before because I was lurking, but then said I was holding onto them to mislynch you. That is a contradiction and does not make any sense whatsoever. And then you contradict yourself again when you said my push on Pasch was bullshit. "If you had a problem, why not say so then?" You never mentioned it before. LOL

Now, your argument is bad. As scum, it is smarter to bargain than be stubborn.

Town doesn't need self-preservation and therefore no need to bargain.

Town definitely doesn't need to bargain when getting the lynch hey want.

Please define the word bargain for me and then read the bolded statement. If you can't figure out how wrong that is, then go to the neurologist. Self-preservation is a reason NOT to bargain, meaning scum WON'T bargain. Please show me examples of when scum have bargained in previous games.

The last sentence in 1717 is a slip. You know I am town and you know my actions make so sense as scum.

This is actually beyond idiotic. I AM SAYING RIGHT NOW THAT YOUR ACTIONS MAKE NO SENSE AS TOWN. That eliminates the slip altogether because it's based on an argument I'm making, not on the setup or any other confirmable things. If I said "Titus is a tracker" and I claimed VT before and you hadn't claimed, THAT would be slip, because it's confirmable and I can't change my statement and say "that was a typo. I meant Titus ISN'T a tracker". That's just so bad.