Open 170 - Bird C9 (Game Over)

[Netlava]

The only way I could be wrong is if EL and Toro are scum

EL and Toro are scum.

[Netlava]

All signs in your logic point to a Toro + EL pairing, which you've dismissed for some reason.

[Snix]

Netlava has to be Scum, If she's town Toro would be dead

I am town and Toro is scum. (I'm male, btw)

Or, if Toro was scum Yankee has to be lying and is a really bad town.

If Toro is scum, Yankee cannot be lying, which means I'm confirmed town.

Again, Toro is scum if EL is scum, which would mean that yankee would have more votes (because EL would have instead of waiting for me to vote.)

[Snix]

EBWOP: should read: (because EL would have voted Yankee instead of waiting for me to vote.)

[Netlava]

Again, Toro is scum if EL is scum, which would mean that yankee would have more votes (because EL would have instead of waiting for me to vote.)

There's no reason why EL must place his vote first if he were scum. He could wait for your vote and then hammer.

[Netlava]

Also, note that Toro was suggesting EL to vote Yankee earlier.

[Snix]

Again, Toro is scum if EL is scum, which would mean that yankee would have more votes (because EL would have instead of waiting for me to vote.)

There's no reason why EL must place his vote first if he were scum. He could wait for your vote and then hammer.

If he votes first I wouldn't really have options except which cop claim to believe. And based on Meta EL scum would probably put me in a kind of situation where it would be his side vs. someone elses and I'd have to choose.

but, this has started me thinking again

so

unvote

[Kdub]

Vote Count

Yankee (1)

- Toro

Snix (0)

-

Netlava (0)

-

Toro (2)

- Yankee, Netlava

Eldritch Lord (0)

-

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (2)

- Snix, Eldritch Lord

5 players alive, 3 votes needed to lynch

Deadline: October 21, ~9:00 pm Pacific

[Snix]

So riddle me this Netlava (sorry about calling you she earlier BTW): Why would scum EL not vote Yankee right away?

[Netlava]

Perhaps he wanted to distance from his scumbuddy, Toro.

But it doesn't really make that much of a difference whether he votes immediately or not.

[Snix]

It does though, because if he's scum and waiting for my vote it means he wants it to be my own logic that kills town, where as if he's scum and votes Yankee than he wants it to be his persuasion that kills town and my gullibility. It matters a lot when EL is involved.

[Yankee]

Well, alot has been said since i went to bed last night.... Let me try to respond to everything...

I agree with all your claims from post 171 except for these:

If EL were scum and Toro was cop, Toro would be dead and we'd have lost. If Toro were scum we'd have two votes on Yankee.

EL is just distancing himself from Toro incase Toro gets lynched tonight, to make himself look more innocent in the eyes of you, and to try and sway me and Netlava's opinion of him. That is why he is not voting for me. BUT i could be terribly wrong (which i doubt) and EL is a townie, but that would leave you, snix as the remaining mafia. The reason i doubt this is even said by you in post 171....

If EL were town and Toro were scum, Toro should not counter-claim but instead let the Cop lead everyone to a mislynch.

A).

If I were scum and Toro was cop, Toro would be dead.

B).

If Toro was scum EL would be dead.

C).

If Netlava was scum Toro would be dead.

D).

If Yankee was scum toro would be dead.

E).

If EL were scum Toro would be dead.

F).

If I was town we'd be stuck in this position.

A). True (Snix=Town)
B). True, because he wouldnt have claimed to be cop (EL=Scum)
C). False, I dont understand your reasoning for this, because he is already voting for toro, could be either or....
D). False, read above
E). False, if toro is his scumbuddy (which he is, but you cant be sure of that, which i understand) then he wont hammer his scumbuddy
F). True (Snix=Town.....Again....)


So we know for sure that snix is a townie, and from my point of view we have confirmed EL as Toro's scumbuddy. I dont know what else i can do to prove to you that I am the true cop, so i guess i will have to let you make the decision on your own and hope you choose the right path. I suggest re-reading the whole topic for insight.

As far as your post about me being a bad cop/newbie cop, it is true I am a newbie cop, this is only my second game on this forum and the first time i have ever gotten a PR, so i would say I am fairly new at it . And as for my suspicions for you earlier in game, i only voiced a suspicion on one incident during twilight, whereas Netlava was more suspicious to me because he seemed to be "tunnelvisioning" us with the whole EL/Hohum ordeal. He kept asking them to keep the debate going and such, so i wanted to investigate him. Speaking of which, i didnt have time last night to do that follow up post about why i voted Netlava in detail so i will try to do one now before i have to go to work....

[Yankee]

These are the reasons i investigated him in detail from day 1, and the reasons why i believe he was still acting scummy in day 2 (which Toro does not believe for some reason)

Day 1:

Is that all you have to offer from your read through?

Vote: Yankee

As soon as i joined he starts attacking me and lays a vote because i didnt Random Vote, it seemed odd to me at the time, but not That odd. Just a minor factor.

Ok, whatever.

And the main reason why I investigated was this post right here. He is bringing more attention to the EL/Hohum matter after it had already ceased to be a matter at all. Very scummy to me, but it seems i was wrong....


Day 2:

Vote: Slepz

He's giving me a scumvibe.

This post seemed odd to me as well because it had only been one page since Slepz last post so he hadnt become the lurker that everyone now see's him as, and he voted just on a vibe without explaining it at all.

That's

(a vibe)

all I need for a lynch, really. Razz

This post stood out to me because he is saying he is willing to lynch based on no evidence whatsoever, just a gut feeling. I know i may be new to this, but that does not seem like a wise plan for this game...

On a side note while reading through this topic in detail, i have noticed one interesting coincidence at post 61-62. As soon as Hohum votes Toro, EL immediately votes for Hohum. I am not saying this is proof they are scumbuddies, just add it to list of evidence...

L-1 is fine if a scum quickhammers and gets caught. Town is actually favored to win in these situations. A 3 person lylo is about 50-50 for scum and town. But with the existence of power roles, town gets the edge.
The problem is, what if town "accidentally" hammers? Someone like... say, me, while not paying attention, might "accidentally" hammer someone... We wouldn't want that to happen, wouldn't we?

I agree with his top sentence, but only if the scum quickhammers. In the middle of the topic it felt almost like he was trying to use proportions and mathematics to confuse us. And the subtle claim to be a town in the last sentence was also a major reason i investigated him.

@EL & hohum: How scummy would you rate the other guy at this point?

As a disclaimer, I'm not trying to induce tunnel-vision or anything of the sort... but rather for other reasons...

Another side note that i have stumbled across in my re-read:

Take Netlava, he says that he could be one who would possibly hammer. So if that happened, town would probably die D1, a different townie would be offed N1, and then we'd all lynch Netlava on D2, resulting in us losing.

This quote from Toro sticks out to me because if he truely were the Cop then he would know this situation is easily avoidable by the Cop investigating the guy that hammers, and wouldnt freak out so much about it.

The problem with you using my example is that I know I'm town, but you don't (or do you?), so it's definitely strange when you say this.

I think he was using you as an example of possible town, not confirming your status as town. Toro's really the only one who's posted a big read so far this game, so I'm kind of hesitant to question him. I personally thought Slepz was lurkerscum, but I guess I didn't read it correctly.

Talk about buddying up....

Netlava, you were kind of pushing the wagon from the outside -- then you quickly backed off when I was questioning you about it, saying that you didn't see anything in it.

You talk about Netlava pushing the Hohum case? Your the one that had a 1-2 page debate with him, you didnt need netlava's help. This accusation of netlava coming from YOU of all people is very odd...

I'm more suspicious of you, Netlava.

FoS: Netlava

FoS: Snix

You know I love you Snix, but I can't risk losing. You really did tack on that extra vote when you were thinking Hohum was just bad town. While no one could've expected the self-hammer, if Netlava was scum, he could've hammered.

And the main reason I post this quote in the middle of my netlava post is because of this paragraph here... I remembered this post and how EL accuses Snix of tacking on an extra vote but when he realizes that Snix was second to vote, and not third he drops his arguement, and does not pursue Toro (who was actually the third to vote Hohum). Why would you make a deal out of it when Snix did it, but not when you learn that Toro did it?

It irks me a little bit that Netlava's vote sat on the doc the whole day..

Why would this irk you, there is no way to know who the doc is, even for scum.

Day 2:

The problem with you using my example is that I know I'm town, but you don't (or do you?), so it's definitely strange when you say this.

Still doesn't explain how you assumed I was town. Rolling Eyes

Also, toro, what are your thoughts now that hohum & slepz have flipped town?

Brings way too much attention to himself and the matter of his townieness. Also, he seemed to be reverting back to his tunnelvisioning technique which seemed suspicious in day 1, and will be still suspicious in day 2.

There is my detailed analysis. Sorry if it is hard to read

[Yankee]

Oh, and sorry for triple post, but i thought i might give you some information to help your decision before i go to work. If you want to take the time to do this you can. The first game i played on this forum that you can study my playstyle if you like. It is Newbie 826 and we are in LyLo at the moment. I dont think i can tell you my role, but it is pretty obvious if you read the last page. The link to that game is http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=350 If you want to take the time to read it I am sure you can learn my playstyle from that game...

I am playing another game in this forum, but it has just started and I started that game after this one so I didnt feel it was appropriate...

Sorry if I am not allowed to share this information, I just know i have read other people commenting on past games they have seen others play, and I have even seen other people speak about reading through peoples past games, so i am just making it easily accessible to Snix (and whoever else is interested).

[Eldritch Lord]

It does though, because if he's scum and waiting for my vote it means he wants it to be my own logic that kills town, where as if he's scum and votes Yankee than he wants it to be his persuasion that kills town and my gullibility. It matters a lot when EL is involved.

First of all, it wouldn't be my side vs. someone else's. I

know

you're more experienced than me and I would lose. I would probably try to kill you.

This is WIFOM, though, maybe thats what I want you to think, etc.

Second of all, I'm on my computer

all the time

. If Toro and I were scumbuddies, we would've caught that window to quickhammer Netlava and end the game -- maybe a 1/100 chance of me not being there but its true. I don't have a life and Snix knows this, so I am pretty much allowed to appeal to that.

With that said, I'm not trying to distance myself from anybody. I'm almost certain you're the scum Yankee, and if you are that almost certainly clears Toro.

I'm willing to throw it all down on Netlava and yourself--and from the looks of it, both Yankee and Netlava are scum if Yankee is scum because of Snixhammer and ELhammer already reporting in without ending this.

We have this gem after Yankee claims cop:

[...]I believe his partner is Snix[...]Also, it is a 66.67% voting scum out of those three so i am confident in my vote of EL

Vote: EL

At this point Toro hadn't counter claimed, and you were so quick to lay a vote on Snix or myself, it could've been Snix and Toro [if you voted me] or Toro and I [voted], (even from your cop perspective), that could've quick hammered and lost us the game. Explain to me why you'd do this in this situation, were you

that

sure, and what made you

that

sure?

No matter how we slice this it seems that it still does come down to Snix. Netlava has been cleared by Yankee so if Yankee were then they'd be right -- if Yankee is not cop then Netlava wouldn't have been cleared.

I think your case on me sounds oddly absolute, making commentary on distancing and playstyle when you hardly know me. I'm rambling at this point though, my cards are on the table.

[Eldritch Lord]

EBWOP

Toro and I [if you voted for Snix.

Considering that you now think Toro and I are scum, do you see how dangerous this could've been if you had voted Snix instead of me or vice versa (at the time)?

You do, but it doersn't matter because I'm pretty sure you're scum.

[Snix]

A).

If I were scum and Toro was cop, Toro would be dead.

B).

If Toro was scum EL would be dead.

C).

If Netlava was scum Toro would be dead.

D).

If Yankee was scum toro would be dead.

E).

If EL were scum Toro would be dead.

F).

If I was town we'd be stuck in this position.

A). True (Snix=Town)
B). True, because he wouldnt have claimed to be cop (EL=Scum)
C). False, I dont understand your reasoning for this, because he is already voting for toro, could be either or....
D). False, read above
E). False, if toro is his scumbuddy (which he is, but you cant be sure of that, which i understand) then he wont hammer his scumbuddy
F). True (Snix=Town.....Again....)

This is all from the perspective of me being scum except point F.

[Eldritch Lord]

On a side note while reading through this topic in detail, i have noticed one interesting coincidence at post 61-62. As soon as Hohum votes Toro, EL immediately votes for Hohum. I am not saying this is proof they are scumbuddies, just add it to list of evidence...

So am I buddying up or distancing? You're going to have to make up your mind.

[Toro]

At this point Toro hadn't counter claimed, and you were so quick to lay a vote on Snix or myself, it could've been Snix and Toro [if you voted me] or Toro and I [voted], (even from your cop perspective), that could've quick hammered and lost us the game. Explain to me why you'd do this in this situation, were you that sure, and what made you that sure?

Interesting point there Eldritch, hadn't thought of it. Going back to read it, it sounded like as if he just wanted to lynch town right off the get-go, seeing how I still firmly believe that Yankee & Netlava are scum together.

[Toro]

And @Netlava:

Has the mere thought of Yankee being scum ever popped up into your head?

[Yankee]

I am on my break from work right now so i dont have much time to reply, will reply in greater detail after 6 tonight. Anyways here is what i have to say to respond:

@ Post 189 - If you are on your computer so much that you could have quickhammered with Toro, why dont you add so much more to the conversation. Someone that active i would expect to see like 1/3 of the posts by them. And also, how could you be certain toro would be online to quickhammer, but none of that really matters because you didnt hammer. And i didnt suspect Toro as much as you or Snix because up until that point he had been rather helpful and pro-town acting. But out of the 3 possibilities you seemed the most scummy, especially with your interactions with Hohum. Also, to be honest, i looked at Hohums thoughts to help me decide which of the three i suspected to be scummy....

@ Post 191 - Oh, i didnt realize that, i was wondering what you meant by all of that, because it didnt seem to make much sense to me.

@ Post 192 - Earlier you were buddying up, now you are distancing. My quotes from you buddying are from earlier if you would have read them, where as my claim of you distancing is present. For someone so active i figured you would have read the times the quotes are from....

@ Post 193-193 - No comment, they need no reply from me...

[Eldritch Lord]

Also, to be honest, i looked at Hohums thoughts to help me decide which of the three i suspected to be scummy..."

That's just not smart.

[Toro]

I am on my break from work right now so i dont have much time to reply, will reply in greater detail after 6 tonight. Anyways here is what i have to say to respond:

@ Post 189 - If you are on your computer so much that you could have quickhammered with Toro, why dont you add so much more to the conversation. Someone that active i would expect to see like 1/3 of the posts by them. And also, how could you be certain toro would be online to quickhammer, but none of that really matters because you didnt hammer. And i didnt suspect Toro as much as you or Snix because up until that point he had been rather helpful and pro-town acting. But out of the 3 possibilities you seemed the most scummy, especially with your interactions with Hohum. Also, to be honest, i looked at Hohums thoughts to help me decide which of the three i suspected to be scummy....

@ Post 191 - Oh, i didnt realize that, i was wondering what you meant by all of that, because it didnt seem to make much sense to me.

@ Post 192 - Earlier you were buddying up, now you are distancing. My quotes from you buddying are from earlier if you would have read them, where as my claim of you distancing is present. For someone so active i figured you would have read the times the quotes are from....

@ Post 193-193 - No comment, they need no reply from me...

Yankee, I was on the whole time last night, sure I wasn't actively posting but I was reading along, along with the other games I'm currently participating in as well. So if me and EL were scum, he would've both just quickhammered Netlava.

[Toro]

we

*, not he

[Yankee]

Back from work, and might i just say that since neither of you can talk outside the topic that it is likely that neither of you wanted to take the chance of voting for Netlava on the off chance that the other was offline and give away your scumminess. There is no way you could have known that the other was online, plus Snix was online to unvote and that could have just been a trick of his. There is several reasons why you wouldnt vote for Netlava right after Snix did.

Also, i dont feel it is worth my energy to defend myself to Toro or EL, so i am saying this to you Snix. I have nothing to hide, anything you want to ask of me that you think may show my innocence please do. I will not hesitate to answer (although i am not as active as EL claims to be so you might have to wait a bit for my reply). I truely have nothing to hide and am not scared of "slipping up" because there is nothing to slip up on for me. But right now i feel it is useless to argue with toro and/or EL because they just take my words and twist it to their benefit and omit parts that make sense, so i am done with that. But go ahead and ask away snix, i will hopefully be online most of tonight and all of tomorrow (no work, yay!)