Open 307-Friends and Enemies Deadly Alliance-Town Wins!!

[cjdrum]

unvote: Spadille
vote: Snarky

And IGMEOY both.

Wouldn't the vote be considered an IMGEOY? Just saying.

Well... No.

More that I've got my eye on their interactions as well as just their individual scumminess.

[[Low Key]]

Ok, now that everybody is here, its time for my:

ANNOUNCEMENT

I'm kind of surprised that nobody has picked up on this or mentioned it but it is absolutely necessary to address this issue as soon as possible meaning TODAY and not tomorrow.

1) There is a one-shot day vig in this game.
2) There is a 25% chance that one of the scum is the day vig.
3) One of the best ways to maximize the town advantage with a day vig is to have TWO town-directed lynches (instead of just one) before the night phase. Reasons explained below.

Wagon/general interaction analysis is the number one way to catch scum after flips.

I propose that we run up our top suspect to L-1 and when a person expresses their desire to hammer we give the day-vig 72 hours to submit their kill to the Mod by PM. We can then analyze the wagons and various interactions based on the flip and then make a

very

informed second lynch based on what we discover from the vig kill.

Because this is a matter of utmost urgency, I would kindly ask every player to weigh in on this issue in their upcoming posts

.

[[Low Key]]

EBWOP: To clarify, I

AM

suggesting that the day vig kill our number one suspect (who will be at L-1 with an eligible hammer call). This is best action for the town.

[[Low Key]]

I am awaiting input from the following players:

Snake
Pops
Toro (catchup post)
DJ

[DeityKabuto]

It is surprising how the scum (Snarky, Archaist, Spadile) are all back on my wagon. Why? Because I attacked them. That is pretty much the internal drive for them coming back. I am certain that at least 1/3 of you on my wagon are scum. The others are probably confused townies.

I will respond to each of your counter-attacks later on today, anyways, you guys need to start pressuring Snarky, he is fucking scum/Anti-townie type of guy.

Also, I claim Vanilla Townie.

The reason I say all of you are scum is because each one of you is over-reacting to my scumhunting/attacks on you. I can't lynch you all in one day, but you guys aren't contributing much.

Spadile - All you are down is commenting on all my walls, you've only had one other conversation with another player who said that your reason for voting me was shit
Snarky - You are posting in an Ant-townie way, and I would feel most safe having you lynched today
Archaist - I don't like your sense of posting, either you are a confused townie who thinks I am actually scum, or you are a scum, itself

With that said, I am debating whether I should even bother commenting on your latest replies via my more recent wall.

Anyways, Low Key, that is a debatable tactic. I would rather have the person at L-1 lynched, and the Vigilante kill the person we second most deem scummy.

Snarky should be lynched today, and I don't know where you guys are bringing up the whole thing with ZMuffinMan and I, you guys are ignorant scum trying to make us look bad. Face the facts. I AM A TOWNIE. You scum, pretty much just lost.

[[Low Key]]

That is a debatable tactic. I would rather have the person at L-1 lynched, and the Vigilante kill the person we second most deem scummy.

We can do that but then we have to vote in thread for who the second most scummy person is and keep a separate vig vote count. I think it would be better to prove the vig first, and once we have done that, actually lynch our second by regular votes.

Also your claim is horribad and I think you should be lynched.

Unvote, Vote DK

[zMuffinMan]

You're here to play the game, not to chat.

You're right! Games are no place for fun and games. This is serious business.

I need some elaboration on how it makes sense that I'm scum if DK flips scum. Surely if what I said was scummy, it would be scummy regardless of DK's flip.

And if that's the case, it would be smarter to pile votes on me instead of DK.

I'm just putting this out there because you'd be the third or fourth person that has said "well zMuffinMan is scummy for doing that but I wanna see DK's flip because it's possible he's scum" - herpityderp, that's not a good reason for lynching DK and he's done nothing that indicates he's scum. I don't think I've done anything scummy, either, but apparently I have.

And no, I'm not oversimplifying anything here. The only case on DK is "it's possible he's scum"; he hasn't exhibited any scum tells or outright scummy behaviour. People need to find a good reason to be on that wagon or get off it.

[cjdrum]

Hmm... I was thinking. And this may seem outrageous, but...

If we lynch DeityKabuto today, the flip will show whether Spadille, Snarky and Archaist actually are scum.
I'm finding Spadille and Snarky scummy regardless anyway, and others for Archaist...

If we

do

lynch DK and he flips Town, Spadille and Snarky will practically be confirmed scum for me.
If DK was to be lynched and he flipped Scum, then I would find Archaist slightly scummy, Snarky extremely scummy, and no idea on Spadille.


As for the day-vig the L-1 issue... I don't know. I think that it'd
a) Be a 75% chance of wasting a Town-oriented Vig kill,
b) Extend the day further than it would have to, possibly causing more inactivity and prodding, and/or
c) Possibly be manipulated by scum in that they could kill whomever they wanted, anonymously (25% chance).

Overall, I think the day Vig should be used at the discretion of the holder. Maybe if the one-shot were to claim on D3, when we can decide for them who to kill, as a second vote? Then it's no longer anonymous, and likely lessens the chance of hitting Town from the kill.


Ninja'd... Twice. I don't know what to make of those posts at all.

[[Low Key]]

Possibly be manipulated by scum in that they could kill whomever they wanted, anonymously (25% chance).

Please explain this.

[cjdrum]

There's a 25% chance that scum have the daykill, and they probably won't comply with what we want them to do.

[[Low Key]]

And the fact that we then know that hurts us... how?

[[Low Key]]

I claim

VT

scum.

Your claim is horribad and you should be lynched.

Of course what I mean here is you should be brought up to L-1 with a valid hammer call and vigged (only lynched if the scum have the vig).

[[Low Key]]

I disagree with post #182 in so many ways but for right now we all need to join hands, sing "Kumbaya" and vig DK and I will be happy to talk about it after that.

[Toro]

EBWOP: This one's going to be an eyesore.

It is surprising how the scum (Snarky, Archaist, Spadile) are all back on my wagon. Why? Because I attacked them. That is pretty much the internal drive for them coming back. I am certain that at least 1/3 of you on my wagon are scum. The others are probably confused townies.

Once again here you go with "Oh scum's back on my wagon." Then you go on with saying that only 1 of 3 on your wagon is scum, complete OMGUS.

I will respond to each of your counter-attacks later on today, anyways, you guys need to start pressuring Snarky, he is fucking scum/Anti-townie type of guy.

Bad attempt at deflection here.

Also, I claim Vanilla Townie.

Well how convenient, the one role in the game that scum could possibly claim.

The reason I say all of you are scum is because each one of you is over-reacting to my scumhunting/attacks on you. I can't lynch you all in one day, but you guys aren't contributing much.

OMGUS based on claimed OMGUS. Fun.

With that said, I am debating whether I should even bother commenting on your latest replies via my more recent wall.

How much experience do you have off-site playing mafia?

Snarky should be lynched today, and I don't know where you guys are bringing up the whole thing with ZMuffinMan and I, you guys are ignorant scum trying to make us look bad. Face the facts. I AM A TOWNIE. You scum, pretty much just lost.

Do you find it suspicious that MuffinMan would want to keep a scum around just so he could be entertained? Do you think that's good town-play or not?

You're right! Games are no place for fun and games. This is serious business.

Damn skippy you're right!

I need some elaboration on how it makes sense that I'm scum if DK flips scum. Surely if what I said was scummy, it would be scummy regardless of DK's flip. And if that's the case, it would be smarter to pile votes on me instead of DK.

You're the one sticking up for DK here, so it would make sense that if he was scum you could be a scumbuddy sticking up for him. If there's the possibility that DK flips town it doesn't completely clear your name. (At least in my eyes.)

I'm just putting this out there because you'd be the third or fourth person that has said "well zMuffinMan is scummy for doing that but I wanna see DK's flip because it's possible he's scum" - herpityderp, that's not a good reason for lynching DK and he's done nothing that indicates he's scum. I don't think I've done anything scummy, either, but apparently I have.

That's not the only reason I believe DK is scum, I'm not doing it just to see a flip, I genuinely believe he's scum. My vote's not going anywhere on him.

And regarding the whole use of the Day Vig power cjdrum/[Low Key], I agree with cjd that it should probably be best used at the user's discretion, and preferrably not this day phase until we've all got a better idea on what alignments people could be. Using it on D1 kind of looks as if you're shooting blindly in the dark, but come D2/D3 at least you'll have a better idea on who you're shooting at.

[[Low Key]]

That's not the only reason I believe DK is scum, I'm not doing it just to see a flip,

I genuinely believe he's scum

. My vote's not going anywhere on him.

Using it on D1 kind of looks as if you're shooting blindly in the dark...

So if the town agrees with your first quote, then how does your second quote make any sense?

[[Low Key]]

Kumbaya

I think post #188 is in many ways very similar to post #182 but for right now I just want to sing and take care of town business.

[Toro]

That's not the only reason I believe DK is scum, I'm not doing it just to see a flip,

I genuinely believe he's scum

. My vote's not going anywhere on him.

Using it on D1 kind of looks as if you're shooting blindly in the dark...

So if the town agrees with your first quote, then how does your second quote make any sense?

So after vigging off DK, who would be your candidate for a lynch?

[zMuffinMan]

OMGUS isn't scummy, and what he's doing isn't OMGUS. For like the 69th time in this game, OMGUS isn't as simple as accusing someone who is accusing you.

The only thing that could be called "scummy" about DK's claim is how early it came, but even then, I have meta on him that suggests he just doesn't know any better regardless of his alignment, and I would go so far as to say this makes it more likely he's town.

You're the one sticking up for DK here, so it would make sense that if he was scum you could be a scumbuddy sticking up for him. If there's the possibility that DK flips town it doesn't completely clear your name. (At least in my eyes.)

Look, this is a setup where the only town PRs are masons. Scum isn't any more or less likely to defend their scum buddies. In fact, it wouldn't be an unreasonable assumption if DK flips scum that one or both of his buddies were hyper-bussing for town cred, and considering the strength of the case on DK (or rather the lack of strength), this isn't an unlikely assumption.

On that note, the fact I'm defending DK is only because there is no real case on him. He isn't going to flip scum. He's not the best player, but that doesn't make him scum.

So after vigging off DK, who would be your candidate for a lynch?

Wouldn't that be the point of discussion based on the vig shot?

[[Low Key]]

The only thing that could be called "scummy" about DK's claim is how early it came, but even then, I have meta on him that suggests he just doesn't know any better regardless of his alignment, and I would go so far as to say this makes it more likely he's town.

If he is town he shouldn't of hurt the town with his lame claim:

1) I've seen a thread where it is stated that a "modern meta" strategy for scum is to claim early to avoid the lynch because the town will just skip over them.
2) I think there is plenty of motivation for newb-scum to do what he has done all game even.
3) I think he is far more likely to be scum now after that terrible anti-town claim.
4) He will never be night killed and doesn't belong anywhere near MYLO (if he's town).
5) It is best to vig him now to actually see if he is newb-scum.
6) Its better to vig him now rather than risk the chance of running up a mason and forcing them to claim.
7) Its better to vig him now rather than exposing a VT so the scum can get a better shot at the masons.

[Toro]

On that note, the fact I'm defending DK is only because there is no real case on him. He isn't going to flip scum. He's not the best player, but that doesn't make him scum.

Wait wait wait, so what you're saying is that the only reason why you said 'you wouldn't want to off DK even if he was scum' was because there's no real case on him? What makes you so sure that he

isn't

scum? Just meta?

[[Low Key]]

7) Its better to vig him now rather than exposing a VT so the scum can get a better shot at the masons.

He shouldn't get a pass just because he claimed VT. The fact is he did it in a scummy manner and should be vigged.

[[Low Key]]

I've given him a pass all game because he self-voted. I'm done giving this guy a pass.

[[Low Key]]

7) Its better to vig him now rather than exposing a VT (by exposing two totally separate players) so the scum can get a better shot at the masons.

/fixed

[Snarky]

(I'm still answering to Low Key's PBPA here

* While not wanting to lynch DK and wanting to actually follow Spad in voting Muffin! (insincere voting and case fishing)

Totally false, I found his vote on Muffin fishy, for it was like "Oh yeah? you don't like my arguments for voting DK? Then I'll vote you". Since there was no other justification with the vote, I asked for clarifications.

Now I'm answering DK'S wall

Also Snarky, your vote is still on me, and your reasons for voting me are only as how I Self-voted.

But hasn't my Self-vote created more discussion than if I hadn't done?

It is also arguable that my without my Self-vote, this game would gone a bit slower than it is now.

But still, you have a vote on me, that means you still find me scummy, why is that?

You were the first on my wagon, are you so sure of me being scum?

I'm not voting you just because of the self-vote. I was voting you firstly because of that, then because of the OMGUS post, and majorly because of lack of scumhunting. Now this has changed a lot, you do scumhunt, but I still find stuff odd about you. will clarify all that when I'll post my thoughts on everyone.

Yes, Snarky. I wanted DK lynched because I believe he's scum. Are you saying you voted him just to join the wagon?
Nope. You have said you believe he is scum too. So what is it really? Either it is a pressure vote or it is a vote to lynch. Choose one.

Don't be silly, for sure I needed to say I found him scum in order to pressure him. And I really THOUGHT he was the scummiest, but it was too early in the game to be SURE he was scum.

@Snarky: I hope you don't mind me asking, but is English your first language?

No it isn't. How have you guessed? Am I that much hard to read?

I hope not having forgotten anything. Now it's enough for defense. I will post my thoughts on everyone the soonest I can, surely tuesday.

[zMuffinMan]

If he is town he shouldn't of hurt the town with his lame claim

It didn't really hurt town.

(1) and (3) are untrue, and irrelevant. I'd cite times I've seen him flip vanilla after early-claiming vanilla but I don't want to talk about ongoing games. You can check his games and check his meta when he flips town if you want.

(2) maybe, but I disagree. I'm getting town vibes from him. Newb-scum may do it, but so what?

(4) well, he's not the best player, but what difference does that make if he's town? Worry about that when we're close to a situation it actually matters.

And (5)-(7) I think you already know the reason I think these are crap very, very well.

Wait wait wait, so what you're saying is that the only reason why you said 'you wouldn't want to off DK even if he was scum' was because there's no real case on him?

I think you need to learn to tell the difference between an obviously sarcastic joke and me being serious.

If I thought DK was scum, I'd get rid of him, as fun as it is to read his posts. He's not scum. There is no case on him.

What makes you so sure that he isn't scum? Just meta?

He isn't doing anything I consider scummy, I'm getting town vibes from his posts, and yes, meta.