Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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OK, Benmage. I tried to talk sense into you, but you just aren't having any. Here is why I think you are scum.
- He cares about this game.Benmage obviously cares about this game - he spent a lot of time making those posts. Yet he is now pretending not to care, and to WANT to die. I don't think a town player would do this - this fits more with a scum player (who still cares) pretending not to care in order to look townie.
- He lies. Benmage claimed that he took the focus off of me because of "this new surge in idiocy." Yet he took the focus off me BEFORE anybody else posted on Day 2, so this is obviously false.
- His play is illogical. He claimed that the reason he voted for me yesterday was to stop me from distracting the Mastin-wagon. Yet the method he employed to bring focus back to the Mastin-wagon was to remove TWO VOTES from the wagon, and try to get another player lynched. Benmage's motives for voting me are obviously NOT what he claimed they were.
- He is inconsistent in his suspicions. Benmage not only ignored me, but also removed his focus from camn, whom he also claimed to find scummy on D1.
Benmage - talk logically NOW. If you are town, then what you are doing now is trolling. Your lynch will definitely NOT help the town if you are a townie.
And Zach, there is no need at all for a quick-lynch.-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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Yes. Obviously. There is no reason at all to paste a long wall analyzing a dead townie, other than to scream "I DID NOT KNOW VP BALTAR WAS GOING TO BE NIGHT KILLED."Benmage wrote:As scum why did I pick VPB, our kill target?? Would I think it make me look more town?
Why are you assuming that Benmage-scum implies jammer-scum or Sensfan-scum?Benmage wrote:Would I also gamble iso'ing a fellow scum in jammer or SF...-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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Benmage:
To clarify my point #3:
You claimed that your vote to me was to show me that I was distracting from the Mastin wagon, but your behavior distracted from the Mastin-wagon just as much as my own did. Which makes me think that your stated reason was not your actual reason. Do you understand?
What "new surge of idiocy" were you referring to in Post 1126?
Here is what Benmage said, which assumed that Benmage-scum implied jammer- or Sens-scum:
I will ask again, Benmage: why are you assuming jammer or Sensfan is scum if you are? And why do you think that I should assume that? I'm curious to hear what jammer and Sens think of this, too.BenMage wrote:Would I also gamble iso'ing a fellow scum in jammer or SF
I do not want to lynch you right now, Benmage, and I did not at the time I cast my vote. It is not in the town's interest for me to say any more.-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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If this was your question, why didn't you ask it? Why start by trying to call my behavior inconsistent, when the two situations are so clearly different?Zachrulez wrote:
Which begs the question of what happened to your suspicion of Alexhans?GIEFF wrote:12 hours into Day 2 with half the players yet to post is much different than 45 pages into Day 1, with another player rapidly approaching lynch.
Nothing happened to my suspicion of alexhans. I think he is likely scum.-
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Wonderful.
No, I don't.Benmage wrote:Do you also feel it obvious to of perhaps iso’d a fellow scum of mine to look town?
I wanted to see how alex would respond to a wagon on you, in light of your behavior toward me yesterday when I tried to lynch him. If I said "I want to see how alex reacts" (as you and Zach have forced me to do), then it doesn't do much good, now does it?Benmage wrote:Why did you ignore the plethora of opportunity to start discussion or analyze what I offered either in agreement of to illustrate my faults?
Why did you vote me, and yet ask others not to continue to pressure me? In addition why do you feel it necessary for your vote to remain while you say you don’t want to lynch me?
I also wanted to see how YOU would react to a bandwagon, and it was not well.
I still think your play today (and late yesterday) has been scummy, but my vote for you was not intended to carry through to lynch.
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Zach:
Yesterday, you were suspicious of me because you thought I was trying to de-rail the Mastin wagon. Now that Mastin is town, do you still think this?
Today, you tried to claim that my behavior was inconsistent between today and late Day 1. That is null, as I explained, and you immediately dropped it.
And now you think I am scummy because I am not voting for alex? Alex hasn't even posted yet. I still want to hear his thoughts on Mastin's alignment and on Benmage's behavior both yesterday and today. As I asked in Post 1128.
I would like to see your case, explaining why you think I am scum, and why I needed to die yesterday.-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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I think your reaction to your wagon was very scummy, Benmage.
I think your commentary relies too much on trying to find buddies. I don't find anything you said all that incriminating or scummy.
Also, your logic saying that VP and alex/jammer have to be opposite alignments is faulty. Townies are mutually suspicious of each other all the time. This sort of argument works better when one of the people is scum.-
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It's not all that elaborate. We don't have any power roles this game, so I'm trying to create situations in which I see how people react. Getting as much info as possible.Zachrulez wrote:Gieff you basically said it yourself, your vote isn't even on your top suspect.
Now you're trying to pass it off as some kind of elaborate play. Let Alexhans react to pressure if you really think he's scum. What was the problem with the direct approach?
I DO think Benmage is scummy though, and saw the opportunity to put some pressure on him, to see how he would react. (Again, to gather more information). Wouldn't you agree that we gained a lot of information from Benmage's reaction to his wagon?
Still waiting on your case.-
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You are right, alex - I read a game with you and camn in it (with you as town), and you made buddying-type statements towards her then, too. But not nearly as many as you did in this game.
I said I wouldnotvote those three people, alex. Read more carefully.
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I urge people to read camn's day 2 posts in iso. Note how she tries to egg on the BenMage wagon (in a nitpicky fashion) without adding her own vote.-
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http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 33#1786733Battle Mage wrote:
Lmao. I'll call that bluff.GIEFF wrote: I do not want to lynch you right now, Benmage, and I did not at the time I cast my vote. It is not in the town's interest for me to say any more.Vote: Gieff
Until such a time as you explain what you meant by this.
BM-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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But I AM suspicious of Benmage. His reaction to the wagon on him was ridiculous. He has been inconsistent and untruthful.Zachrulez wrote:I made very clear points about your vote not being where your suspicions are.
Stop acting like I don't have any reasoning.
Please, present some reasoning, zach. You said I needed to die YESTERDAY. So obviously you have a lot more reasoning to present, right?-
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No. You removed me from your lynch-list. This happened before anybody else had the chance for any idiocy. You were NOT referring to Sensfans' posts yesterday when you said "idiocy." You were referring to the wagon on you, which happened AFTER you removed me from your lynch-list.Benmage wrote:
What my iso’s?alexhans wrote:
??? THe idiocy surge came after your posts...
So - if I was second on your lynch-list yesterday, and the person who was in first is now dead, why am I completely off of it now?-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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This is BS. You claim to have voted for Benmage because no townie has that much content at the start of a day. This has nothing to do with Benmage's subsequent irrational behavior, the cessation of which should NOT have caused you to unvote, if you were being genuine.Zachrulez wrote:Alex, I changed my mind about Benmage once he actually started being reasonable.
I don't want to give you the time to just make crap up. You said I should have been lynched yesterday, so I assume you have some good reasoning for that. Just a few brief points will be fine.Zachrulez wrote:Do you constantly feel the need to post the same thing 3 times?
I already said I made points, but you've apparently ignored that.
Not to mention the fact that you're being unrealistic about the speed and time limits you're expecting on me to adhere to even if I hadn't made any points on you already.
I've read you in iso, and you have nothing so far but the fact that I am voting for Benmage even though I think alex is likelier to be scum.-
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Zachrulez wrote:I think your vote was opportunistic. This whole block of text here supports my thought that your vote was opportunistic.
What whole block of text?
Fine, I will humor you - you think my Benmage-vote was opportunistic. Opportunistic enough to vote me.
But if this is true, then what about jammer's vote for Benmage? His vote was more opportunistic (as it came later, it was OMGUS, and he said NOTHING when you were pushing the quicklynch. Why focus on me instead of jammer?-
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It isn't an attempt to deflect. It's an attempt to show that the only reason you can fabricate to explain your vote for me applies to jammer even more so than it does to me.
Your very first post in this game was a vote for me, because I attacked jammer. And now you vote me for doing something, and ignore the very same behavior in jammer. You are not being rational.-
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Still waiting for those reasons, Zach. If it's just gut, then say "just gut." I don't know what you mean about the "pretty big thing about the argument Mastin is town."Zachrulez wrote:I'm not gonna lie, I'll probably be on you for as long as I am alive in this game, unless something happens at a critical moment in the game that convinces me that you are town.
You were on me from the first post of the game. My thoughts from yesterday was that you were so sure Mastin was scum that you assumed that MY actions were as his scum-buddy. So I am confused that you are still pursuing my lynch today. Really, honestly, try to give me the reasons you think I'm scummy.
The last time someone tunneled me all game and refused to provide any reasoning, he turned out to be scum.-
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From Post 326:Battle Mage wrote:Gieff - If you wanna cite some games where he lurked as vanilla town, go for it.
Mafia 82. He lurked quite severely, but not as bad as this game.
Consulmaker. You were in this game, Battle Mage. But the lurking, while bad, wasn't as bad as it is in this game.
Mafia 69. This game he wasn't as lurky, but I don't think he was a vanilla. His chars/day average just looks so low because he had one posts 3 months after he left the game - he was actually fairly active.
So he DOES lurk as town, but not as much as he has in this game. I no longer think that Cephrir's town-lurking meta is enough to excuse this level of inactivity. But I would still prefer a bcc/Kai lynch, as BOTH of them lurked, which makes the behavior more likely due to alignment than due to the poster.-
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Let me get this straight:Zachrulez wrote:I've already stated much earlier in the game that I think Jammer is town. Nice attempt to deflect though.
You have already decided I am scum. You have already decided jammer is town.
The only reason you have given for thinking I am scum ALSO applies to jammer. Yet you refuse to re-visit your initial assumption (from page 3!) that jammer is town.
I'd think a townie would keep a more open mind about potential scum. Not completely ignore behavior you claim to find scummy just because of something that happened on page 3.-
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This was directed at Zach, not at you, Benmage.Benmage wrote:
I won’t lie I get overall scum vibes just from your game in its entirety...maybe it’s just your style, but that’s might gut read.GIEFF wrote:
You have already decided I am scum..
But while we're on the subject: you put almost no pressure my way yesterday up until I said it seemed like you, camn, and Zach were very against an alex lynch. And then you exploded.
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camn - why did you hammer Mastin?-
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I did no such thing. I noticed that the only people who had not suggested alex as a potential day 1 lynch were you, Zach, and camn, ALL of whom were actively questioning my attempt to lynch alex. So I said it seemed as if the three of you were very against his lynch, and actively trying to stop the 8 people who had listed alex as a potential lynch from considering it. It seemed that way now, and it still seems that way.Benmage wrote:I exploded because you overtly embellished and clearly misrepresented (at the very least myself) in trying to prove your point, and also pointlessly derailed the wagon.
And Zach, yesterday you said:
Did alex's reaction to Mastin's flip give you a better sense of alex's alignment?Zachrulez wrote:I think in order to make any kind of sense of Alexhans, we really need to see Mastin's flip, and Alexhans' reaction to it.
A piece of information Gieff seems to REALLY not want us to have.
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I agree this is scummy. Battle Mage switched VERY quickly from voting Mastin to calling him "almost certainly town."alexhans wrote:You're so full of it BM... Your whole move to clear yourself from Mastin's lynch is really clear... You "suspected" him and waggoned him but when it was certain he was getting lynched you came out to say he was town??? come on...-
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Benmage - you asked me to point out where you have been untruthful. Here it is - the "idiocy" issue:
Benmage wrote:My interest in Gieff has subsided only because of the new surge of idiocy.GIEFF wrote:Benmage claimed that he took the focus off of me because of "this new surge in idiocy." Yet he took the focus off me BEFORE anybody else posted on Day 2, so this is obviously false.
Here, you claim that "people" (plural) were idiotic on day 1, and therefore all of them surpassed me in scumminess.Benmage wrote:When I mentioned the surge of idiocy I thought I was answering something in response to my new lynch preference which didn’t have you listed. Hence making people via the idiocy seem scummier than you.
But then you later tried to claim:
Now the idiocy just refers to Sensfan?Benmage wrote:Yes the new list comprised those who were in opposition to VPB. Because I strongly feel that jammer or alex could be scum and that VPB’s iso and my readings were quite telling. SF play was in their because of his idiocy(which I felt at the time even if I hadn’t said the word “idiocy” yet). That part on SF should be evident when I quoted his vote on me and my following reaction.
You do NOT call Sensfan an idiot (or alex or jammer). But you DO call everyone on your wagon "r-tards" and "morons" and "sheep."It is obvious that when you said "idiocy" you were referring to the wagon on you - not on any behavior that occurred yesterday.Anybody who doubts this, please iso-read Benmage from his 140 through 144.
You got caught trying to justify removing me from your lynch-list with something that occurred AFTER you did so, but instead of admitting a mistake, you lied again to try to cover it up. I don't know why a townie would do this.-
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I would take Battle Mage at his word about his meta on blackcatcontract, but BCC is not in any other active games besides this one, so I don't see why BM can't tell us what meta-reason he has for not suspecting him. Care to explain, BM?
Zach, did you unvote me because you are less convinced I am scum, or did you unvote me because you would just rather lynch bcc? Either way, you right now (or very recently) are not voting for the player you think is most likely to be scum. So don't you think you need a better reason to call me scum?
Also, what do you think about Benmage's "idiocy" lie?-
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1. Somebody asked Benmage why I was no longer on his lynch list.
2. Benmage said it was because of all "the new idiocy."
3. It is very clear, based on context, that Benmage was referring to the wagon on him.
4. The wagon on him happened AFTER he removed me from his lynch list, so this could not possibly have caused him to remove me.
5. Instead of correcting this mistake, he continued to lie, claiming that the "idiocy" was really the iso-posts he'd quoted from day 1.-
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OK, so you do admit, FINALLY, after your third explanation (the first two of which were lies), that the "idiocy" was referring to the wagon. Which was obvious from the start. You can hide it in a mega post and pretend not to understand the point, but you lied all the same, and obviously so.Benmage wrote:3. Lol? I know I wasn’t referring to anyone being idiots yesterday. I was referring to my lynch wagon…duh? Ty…the point of this?
Post 1109 was your lynch-list - you put in jammer, Sensfan, and alex. At that time, the only person of the three voting for you was Sensfan. What does idiocy have to do with putting jammer and alex above me on your lynch-list? NOTHING.
This isn't semantics at all - it's a blatant lie. Idiocy has NOTING to do with why you put me down your scum-list, yet you claimed that it was the ONLY reason.
Could it be that I was on your scumlist yesterday because you were only pretending to find me scummy in order to either force a Mastin-town lynch or to chainsaw-defend alex-scum? And that you forgot that you were supposed to be consistent from one day to the next, and so left me off the list today?-
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No, you caught me lying. You're right. You were focused on me like a LASER coming out of the gate on day 2. You mentioned me over and over, and kept up the pressure, hardly even mentioning other players in your razor-sharp analysis.Benmage wrote:Gieff you have clearly lied in post 1169 point 2 where you said I took the focus off “BEFORE” anyone posted D2. You sir are a liar. Do you deny this?
I already have pointed it out. I will do so again.Benmage wrote:
Where DID I deny this? Point it out. Continue to spew your false statements. I broke it down chronologically, no one will believe your lies any more.GIEFF wrote:Benmage wrote: 3. Lol? I know I wasn’t referring to anyone being idiots yesterday. I was referring to my lynch wagon…duh? Ty…the point of this?
OK, so you do admit, FINALLY, after your third explanation (the first two of which were lies), that the "idiocy" was referring to the wagon. Which was obvious from the start. You can hide it in a mega post and pretend not to understand the point, but you lied all the same, and obviously so.
1st explanation:
2nd explanation:Benmage wrote:When I mentioned the surge of idiocy I thought I was answering something in response to my new lynch preference which didn’t have you listed. Hence making people via the idiocy seem scummier than you.
3rd (and correct) explanation:Benmage wrote:Yes the new list comprised those who were in opposition to VPB. Because I strongly feel that jammer or alex could be scum and that VPB’s iso and my readings were quite telling. SF play was in their because of his idiocy(which I felt at the time even if I hadn’t said the word “idiocy” yet). That part on SF should be evident when I quoted his vote on me and my following reaction.Benmage wrote:3. Lol? I know I wasn’t referring to anyone being idiots yesterday. I was referring to my lynch wagon…duh? Ty…the point of this?
You know the drill, Benmage. I want to see reasons for voting me. And "sidetracking" doesn't count - what exactly do you think I'm sidetracking from? And I have not lied, as you so clearly have. If you think lying is a scumtell, move your vote right on back to yourself.-
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But your vote now seems completely logical and devoid of anger. You're growing, Benmage. It is a beautiful thing to witness. Like a butterfly emerging from its chrysalis of knee-jerk OMGUS and irrational insults.Benmage wrote:I think there is a large misconception that my attack on Gieff at the end of D1 was anything too substantial. It was done largely out of anger and frustration. Frustration at him derailing the mastin wagon on an issue of votes which could be argued for several players(illustrated in peoples willingness to vote him)…Anger through his inflated commentary and arguments.-
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A review of Benmage's play today:
1. OMG I AM ALIVE
2. Iso posts.
3. Says Jammer's iso is the scummiest (but doesn't vote him)
4. OMGUS-vote of Sens
5. Complete freakout at the fourth vote on him.
6. Self votes
7. Insults everybody voting for him
8. Apparently knew the town was going to act like idiots at the start of Day 2, and that this would cause him to lose interest in me.
9. Self-votes.
10. Calls Zach r-tard scum.
11. Calls me a townie sheep.
13. Says he is too flustered to discuss my play rationally.
14. Says his attack on me on Day 1 was not substantial, and mostly done out of anger and frustration.
15. Calls me a wolf in sheep's clothing, because I say the right things.
16. Votes Cephrir
17. Flips out and votes me.
So, to review:
- Jammer's iso was the scummiest, but he doesn't vote him, instead choosing to OMGUS-vote Sensfan.
- He claims his attention on me yesterday was not all that substantial, mostly based on anger. Yet he also claims that he still finds me scummy, but I was just surpassed by alex, sens, and jammer.
- He calls me a townie sheep, but then votes me.
- He calls zach a retard scum, but never votes him.
- Although jammer is still voting for him, and although he claimed jammer's iso was the scummiest, he has OMGUS-voted BOTH of the other two players still voting for him.
And with this attitude, you will not improve.Benmage wrote:^^^OMG more consistency, damn I am better at this game than I thought.-
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You are wrong. I did not say that in Post 1169.Benmage wrote:Than try to answer the statement. Truthfully, you can't. Post 1169 you say I claimed to remove you from the list before anyone posted. This is obviously a lie as the lynch preference is well into the day.
GIEFF wrote:He lies. Benmage claimed that he took the focus off of me because of "this new surge in idiocy." Yet he took the focus off me BEFORE anybody else posted on Day 2, so this is obviously false.
I said you took the focus off me before anyone posted, which is absolutely correct. You ended the day saying I was your top lynch candidated after Mastin, and then came straight out of the gate whiz-bang on Day 2 completely ignoring me. That's a bit odd.
You later even claimed that you didn't find me all that scummy yesterday, and it was mostly a vote in anger. This explanation I could have believed, but now you are claiming that you found me scummy all along?
I think you might really believe that you were consistent with your idiocy speech. Re-reading your second quote, I see that you really could have been talking about Sensfan's vote for you. Is English your first language?
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I pull nothing out of context, Benmage. I write long posts, and try to make them as brief as possible by only pulling what is necessary for my point. What possible additional context should I have included in that statement? How is that misrepresenting you?-
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unvote
vote blackcatcontract
I still think camn is the scummiest player in the game. If anybody feels like starting that wagon up, I'll be right there to help you push it. But for now, I sense Benmage is just way too emotional. I did a meta-investigation of him and saw him over-reacting to pressure in a similar fashion when he was town.
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Benmage, that is NOT a misrepresentation. You are crying wolf by using that word so inappropriately over and over again. I am not claiming that your statement applies to the points I raised. I am simply telling you that your perception of yourself is wrong - you have acted irrational and inconsistent today.
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KMD, I am just saying that you have been very consistent in your suspicion of me, unlike Benmage, who has been all over the place. But you both are wrong.-
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I'm not saying why I don't trust you. As far as I'm concerned, you can trust my judgment, or not trust it. But if you don't trust it, etc. etc.Battle Mage wrote: I'm not saying any more on BCC. As far as i'm concerned, you can trust me, or not trust me. But, if you dont trust me, i'd rather you explained why:
Is it a Kai-read or a bcc-read that makes you sure that character is town?-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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If you will recall, the only reason you started saying Mastin was town was because you thought alex was scum.Battle Mage wrote:But, i said it with Mastin, and i was right. I dont see why i shouldnt be right here.
So if your suspicions were right, why lynch a lurker instead of alexhans?Battle Mage wrote:
You are basing this on the assumption that i am scum. If you believe that to be the case, why lynch a lurker anyway?alexhans wrote: The fact that you defended BCC over Cephir makes me confident about not voting Cephir.-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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My original claim was that he contributes less as town than as scum (in terms of characters / day).Battle Mage wrote:If you've bothered to look at any of Gieff's links btw, you'll see that they do NOT support his original claim. He hasnt even attempted to refute this, because it's a damn FACT.
In any case, we have established that Cephrir DOES lurk as town, although never to this degree. But he hasn't ever lurked as scum to this degree, either.
I will look into bcc and Kai's metas when I have a chance, but the fact that TWO players have lurked with the same character seems telling.-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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You voted Mastin.Battle Mage wrote:GIEFF wrote:So if your suspicions were right, why lynch a lurker instead of alexhans?
Eh? I dont get you.
BM
You quickly turned around and called Mastin town, because you thought alex was scum, which implied Mastin-town.
Mastin is town.
So why aren't you voting alex?
Or was there other factors that led you to believe Mastin was town?-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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Battle Mage wrote:Taking the assumption Alex is scum (which is the assumption i am making if i want him lynched), Mastin is almost certainly town. Of course, if Alex turns out to be town, this condition is no longer met, and Mastin can be looked at again.
But you're right, BM, you later said that you didn't think his lurking was scummy, and saw him taking pressure for it in other games.-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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This is simple.
Cephrir's play does not fit her play as town or as scum. She has NEVER lurked this much before. In past games, she contributes less as town than as scum, so I'm inclined to think that NO participation is more a town-tell than a scum-tell, although not strong either way.
But blackcatcontract, on the other hand, hasn't posted in this thread (or on site) for 10 days. The fact that he responded to Yaw means that he IS coming back to the site, but without posting anywhere. I don't know why a townie would do this. If there aren't other games bringing bcc back, it has to be this one, and if it's THIS game bringing him back to the site, why hasn't he posted in it for the last 10 days?-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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Battle Mage - it really looked like you were saying Ceph was town. Zach wasn't and hasn't been riding my coattails at all.
You said Zach's example looks good, as if it reinforced your point. You said that level of activity (i.e. high) is about the level of participation we normally see from Cephrir-town. Do you see why it looks like you were assuming Cephrir was town?
Can you explain what you meant by your quote, and why we should have known you were assuming Cephrir-scum?-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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I did ask, BM, and I'm not being condescending. I don't see this insurmountable evidence you're talking about, and I don't see why you are ignoring the fact that bcc came back to the site to respond to Yaw, but not for ANY OTHER PURPOSE, as he's in no other games. Or the fact that his predecessor also lurked and replaced out.
Does anybody know if he has an alt?
I will look into Zach and his trust of me about you, Battle Mage. He's claimed to find me scummy all game, so if he takes what I say about you at face value, that seems a bit odd.-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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....Battle Mage wrote:*facepalm*
Post 1398. Keeps up guys! :P
BM
You asked if he was going to ride my coattails "all game," which implies a pattern of behavior, so I looked to find this pattern, and it didn't exist.
As I asked before, don't you see why your post made it look like you assumed Cephrir was scum? I thought you just made an honest mistake. Re-read it from an outsider's perspective.-
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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GIEFF Internet Superstar
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