Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[Fate]

[EmpTyger]

GreyIce:
Missed your question earlier. Strongest townread is PZ/Tragedy. Big dropoff after that. I don’t think I’m comfortable listing anyone else yet. However, I will say *again* that I don’t want to lynch dramonic, not before Reckoner. Why do you keep saying I do?

And why do you say that the partners of Kise (temporarily assuming he is werewolf) are playing a lurking game?


Fate:

Reck hasn't given reasons why dram is town?

All the more reason to trust him. Town meta is one thing, scum meta is another.

When you see scum meta you see specifc reasons and plans in their actions, and thus can explain WHY they're scum. When soeone you can read is town, its just obv with every post they make but you can't explain it concretely, cept to say there's a lack of scumplayemta ine their posts.


Like how I know Kise is town this game. ALSO reckscum would definitely BS some reasons for his read on dramtown, to avoid heat, so that's a good sign as well.

Um, that’s *exactly* what Reckoner did. I’ll quote it again.

More or less. Dramonic likes to play scum the same way that I do. Here's my logic behind it, and it's the same logic I've used to catch dramonic in the past:

1. Ideal play for scum is to appear as townie as possible.
2. The best way to appear townie is to catch scum.
3. When you're scum, you already know who the scum area.
4. Therefore, bussing is the best way to get town credit.

It doesn't make complete sense, I know... but that's more or less how I've caught dramonic before.

Also, have you considered Reckoner/GreyIce? Because that’s what I want to reread to check (D2 especially). GreyIce’s play makes no sense today as werewolf- unless he’s werewolf with Reckoner (or you). He’s putting his neck on the line arguing for a Reckoner/dramonic/GreyIce endgame. And he has earlier taken opposing positions as Reckoner, yet concluded unshakingly that Reckoner must be innocent.


Reckoner:

EmpTyger/Hiraki, without GreyICE/Antihero, could be ANYONE as the buddies.

Anyone except your 4 fastest, you mean...

[GreyICE]

Damn it. PZ is almost definitely scum. I was hoping I was wrong, but the tyger-dar has so far been impeccible.

[EmpTyger]

GreyIce:

And why do you say that the partners of Kise (temporarily assuming he is werewolf) are playing a lurking game?

No response to this?

And let's talk about my radar.
D1 I was right about q21.

D2 I was wrong about Kcda, yes.  (Because I was too suspicious of how attention shifted to him off of Reckoner, Llamarble, and you.)

D3 was s perfect storm of me reeling from the D2 misread, just when silavor and Charlie both imploded. (Which everyone across the board got wrong.)

D4 I was right about vezok.

D5 I let my partner talk me out of my feeling about Espeonage.

The main thing I think I've done wrong is let myself doubt my reads. 

[GreyICE]

I say that because there's two strong plays for scum at the moment. The first is to come out and establish a 2-team coalition that votes together and try and push themselves to endgame there. The only team doing that is Reck/Fate, and they haven't in earlier days and I have strong town reads on both.

The other option is to essentially 'soft-support' your other teammate. That's the more conventional scum tactic, and what I think is going on here. If Kise/Llama are the active pair, their partners are lurking and soft supporting.

Bussing just ain't an option here

[xRECKONERx]

My four fastest... what.

[GreyICE]

Meh, FINE.

Question: Me and anti, Kise and LlamaFluff - town/town, or town/scum (and if the latter, who will flip red and why)? I think we can discard scum/scum - me because I know it ain't true, everyone else because, well, I ain't been focused on Kise for (as Fate says) 40 pages because of a bus I legitimately believe would be utterly insane.

[Papa Zito]

EmpTyger is town what are these votes.

VOTE: dramonic

[xRECKONERx]

EmpTyger is town what are these votes.

VOTE: dramonic

This is terrible.

Scum and town list. Now.

[Kise]

Since when did PZ troll?

@GI: After researching, I've seen you with your back to the wall as town. Much, much different than what I see here. Not that you're asking me, but I'd put us both on the town-scum list. No, this is not a taunt because "teehee im wolf you town."

I see what the scum are doing.. Not addressing me directly so I don't get up in that ass again.

Kise:
I don’t see an answer in all of that to the question of, “What changed between your “should’ve voted Ashblade” and your actual voting of GreyIce?”

My attempt to get support for the Ashblade bombed day 5. I've laid the smack down and that's all I really have to offer as far as case-building. With the majority/those I view as town due to PoE + replacement meta do not see Ash & marble as scum, I am moving on to GI, who I thought I even had support with my lover. Though we don't post much in the QT, I have pestered LF to argue or agree with my scumreads, and argue or agree with my reasons to find Trag, dram and slightly Reck as town. After seeing Reck (I believe it was Reck) give a town read on Ash, I decided that I may as well use other's scumread of GI to make progress.

Oooo, bring on the caps and hope they fall for the act. You're raging over a vote from Nero. Bad nerves, I know. No matter how hard you whine, it's ingenuine caps-rage. It's just 2 votes on you and you already had to preemptively bring out the caps. FOH.

How is this different (/how do you see this as any different) from how Reckoner has acted? Either recently, after I pointed out how his reasons regarding dramonic had evaporated, or earlier, eg with Haylen/silavor?

And if you also think dramonic must be innocent for meta-reasons… well, what did he do that a guilty-dramonic wouldn’t do?

Square Enix III: Reck gave everyone hell after his dramtown read was snubbed. He threatened to post mod communication, his role PM, etc. just to be modkilled and fuck over the town that were ignoring him. When Reck calls dram town and flips shit like chefs flipping pancakes at IHOP, it means he's pissed you're not paying attention. What I see here is people calling Reck town, but not accepting his townread of dram, which understandably has irritated him.

Your second question: It's not so much about what a guilty dram would do, although he'll show signs when he's working under a team. The meta reasons are more so for all the replacements he's been through. I said not long ago that multiple replacements makes dram's partners look like bored/clueless townies who didn't feel like reading dozens of pages to find scum.

[Kise]

Also:

GreyIce’s play makes no sense today as werewolf- unless he’s werewolf with Reckoner (or you). He’s putting his neck on the line arguing for a Reckoner/dramonic/GreyIce endgame.

I saw a similar concern posted by Reck I believe it was. Thing is, mislynches can be used as an excuse for the werewolves (anyone, really) to "reevaluate" their reads. Having a revelation is the perfect setup to flip a 180 on a townie and condemn them for manipulating things.

[Ashblade]

OTOH apparently Ash is not lovers with Emp. Meh, I'll give Ash one of those gut townreads due to his post addressing me when I replaced in (STILL WANNA KNOW WHO YOU ARE)

You don't know me (unless you know me from somewhere else but there's slim to none chance of that being a possibility). I've just read quite a few your games before I joined this site and... kind of learned what to expect when you show up in them.

which you proceeded to do soooooooo yeah.

However, I reallly think your town with how your acting.

Ashblade, who do you want to lynch today? Give a clear list of scum and town reads.

Most of this I removed but... what about Kise? He's been my scum read the whole time, and that hasn't changed. I've just decided to listen to llamafluff a bit incase I'm dead wrong.

Kise/Llamafluff is my top scumpick by reasons I've stated earlier.
PZ/Tragedy is my second pick. They're doing the same things Llama and I are doing of not being here but none of the attempt (Llama is trying to add reads to the thread as am I, if not as well as the rest of the players). I mean... look.

VOTE: Kise

Lurking Lazy (Scum?) detected.

When she's been doing the same thing for the past week, and Zito's last post isn't helping that either.

Town is..
Grey/Antihero. Hero I haven't exactly read so far, but Grey is town not only by meta but his reactions in this game are the Grey town I know from him. If he flips scum then I'll shut up and do whatever it matters in this game, same if Kise doesn't flip scum.
Reck/Nero is very town, also by Reck's reactions. I don't like Nero and that was the only thing that made me possibly see him as scum, but otherwise I think he is.
Dram/Fate are town too. Actually at this point I see them more town than I did with Reck, for Reck's talk about Dram and now Fate's play here.
Emp/Hiraki are my last in town reads, but I'd be willing to bite the bullet for this, since it's my lowest town read, and the reason I changed this is that I finally am seeing them explaining things that I as a townie would see them as. Simply put, I see the town reasoning in them.

That's my reads. If you want them in a little chart.

Town
Grey/Antihero
Dram/Fate
--
Reck/Nero
--
Emp/Hiraki
--
PZ/Tragedy
--
Kise/Llamafluff
Scum

Breaks for how much I'd see them flipping scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Thats kinda cool... the scumlist from ash is almost the exact inverse of who has been attacking him.

@Ash - How does Fate replacing in and attacking your "top town read" make you more sure then before that he is town? Also you trusted Recks read of dram which put dram as MORE TOWN then reck... so you trusted your somewhat scummier read of someone being town, to put them more town as the player... I keep typing it and it doesnt make sense.

@Kise - Can we please move back to killing ash/llama? I seriously see no way they are town, and there is only two remotely realistic parings they arent a part of as opposed to ice/anti who are missing from a few key possible pairings.

[xRECKONERx]

@Ash - How does Fate replacing in and attacking your "top town read" make you more sure then before that he is town? Also you trusted Recks read of dram which put dram as MORE TOWN then reck... so you trusted your somewhat scummier read of someone being town, to put them more town as the player... I keep typing it and it doesnt make sense.

this

[dramonic]

I dont like agreeing with Llama since he would very much like me dead, but I have to agree to that.

I swear I'll try to make a big post tomorrow!

[Llamarble]

Oh come on. I know you addressed Ash, but your comments apply to my reads too so I may as well answer them.
If player A (Reck), whom I think is town and know is good, gives a townread on player B (Dram), I take their perspective into strong consideration. Especially in a case like this. I think Reck is more town than Dram, but they're likely both town and I'll never vote either of them unless it's just them, Grey, and us left so their order doesn't matter at this juncture.
And I don't like that Fate is attacking Grey, but I think he's town attacking town.

We should really be lynching Kise today. The only other lynch I'd consider voting for is PZ/Tragedy.

And so what if the people who want to lynch me are scum. Does that make it not okay to vote them? Scum always attack me anyway.

[Kise]

Thats kinda cool... the scumlist from ash is almost the exact inverse of who has been attacking him.

Sheeyit

... I almost caught a town-tingle from that. He's being reasonable with his read of PZ & Trag, but my replacement-meta tells me I should view them as town... I am curious to find this out:

TRAGEDY AND ZITO:

What are the last 5 or so posts in your QT about?

[GreyICE]

Also:

GreyIce’s play makes no sense today as werewolf- unless he’s werewolf with Reckoner (or you). He’s putting his neck on the line arguing for a Reckoner/dramonic/GreyIce endgame.

I saw a similar concern posted by Reck I believe it was. Thing is, mislynches can be used as an excuse for the werewolves (anyone, really) to "reevaluate" their reads. Having a revelation is the perfect setup to flip a 180 on a townie and condemn them for manipulating things.

Haha, nice.

PO&Espy reevaluation much?

[Tragedy]

Thats kinda cool... the scumlist from ash is almost the exact inverse of who has been attacking him.

Sheeyit

... I almost caught a town-tingle from that. He's being reasonable with his read of PZ & Trag, but my replacement-meta tells me I should view them as town... I am curious to find this out:

TRAGEDY AND ZITO:

What are the last 5 or so posts in your QT about?

We were most likely investigating the First & Second wagons.

It's usually empty, the QT, sometimes.

[GreyICE]

Can't you just... like... open it up and check?

Or are there posts in the last five not written by Tragedy or Papa Zito?

[Tragedy]

Just us 2.

[GreyICE]

So... open it up and tell me us what the last five posts were about

[Tragedy]

??: So who's [REDACTED]'s partner again?
??: Dram, I think? I really need to read the thread.
??: Future Reference --

• ??: [Contains Mafia/Town lovers & Wagons]
  ??: Where's the townies mostly at?
  ??: Is it possibly Dram/Reck = Scumbuddies or one of 'em is scum...

[GreyICE]

Bah sounds genuine.

Well I'm comfortable with where my vote is at.

[LlamaFluff]

If player A (Reck), whom I think is town and know is good, gives a townread on player B (Dram), I take their perspective into strong consideration. Especially in a case like this. I think Reck is more town than Dram, but they're likely both town and I'll never vote either of them unless it's just them, Grey, and us left so their order doesn't matter at this juncture.

*bzzzzt* this doesnt work

Player A says player B is town
Ash says he trust the read of player B by player A, and thats where the entire read of player B is coming from
Ash then says player B is MORE TOWN then player A.
Player B2 comes in and attacks player C (strongest town read).
This makes player B2 EVEN MORE TOWN then he used to be.

All this logic fails.

I could buy a C/A/B decending list, but this makes no sense.

Also its amazingly convinent that your list has manifested itself to be the people throughout the entire game have called you town and defended you as town, and the people who have called you scum as scum. Buddying busted, screw this im back on (off?) the wagon. FATE COME IN AND SEE THIS.

unvote
Vote Ash