Judge, Jury, and Executioner - Over

[Knight of Cydonia]

Considering the mod screw-up, I feel bad about my post in the scum QT saying I wanted a Scummie if my 2nd gambit of the game worked.

[BloodCovenent]

Considering the mod screw-up, I feel bad about my post in the scum QT saying I wanted a Scummie if my 2nd gambit of the game worked.

you get nothing.

[BloodCovenent]

Funny story, i got a scummy from a game in 2010, and then i ended up not playing any games while i had the icon. I didn't even realize i got it until i saw some PM's when i logged back in a few weeks ago.

[GreyICE]

Meh, as usual. Moderator makes scum team. Moderator goes "oh no, what if scum team plays poorly?" Moderator gives scumteam lots of cool things to save them from their own stupidity. Moderator goes "what if town plays poorly?" Moderator goes "meh, town deserves to lose if they play poorly."

Reinforces my opinion that you should always lynch Knights of Cydonia though.

[GreyICE]

No surprise virtually my entire wagon was scum though. If I've been mislynched, lynch my wagon, you'll win the game.

[BloodCovenent]

cool ass mechanics, but i agree with Grey's 2153.

[WrathChild]

Well, I'm pretty disappointed. I'm certain the scum had a huge advantage with this mechanic even without a missing town PR. With 3 votes, votes me so little and those votes are a main part of town's ability to hunt scum. With Scum controlling who goes where and having 3 shots to screw with that means even more confusion for town. I was certain that for balance reasons the scum team would have been much smaller.

Anyways, at least I was right about KoC.

[Thor665]

and yeah Sorry thor. My bad.

No worries - now I finally have a 'lynched Day 1' story.
Though I think it probably counts more as a scumkill Day 1, really.. ::shrug::

[Nero Cain]

Maybe I'm bias but I do think it was scum sided. We could only lynch scum properly if we lynched 2x scum in one day, and that's fucken hard with no scumflips to start the fire going...

this. so much this.

no way KOC deserves MVP, he was fairly obvious scum and anyone with half a brain had a scum read on him.

Was impressed with red panda's play from d3 on.

MVP should be wichever townie played the worst.

[WrathChild]

Shadow for Scum MVP!

[Nero Cain]

I'd buy that.

[DoomYoshi]

KoC for MVP.

It sucks that my DCL case never gained traction. I guess my next step in improvement is convincing other players.

I was totally wrong on Axel and KoC though.

[N]

Wait, AV was town?

[Nero Cain]

unfortunly

[Axelrod]

no way KOC deserves MVP, he was fairly obvious scum and anyone with half a brain had a scum read on him.

So what you're saying is, no one in the Town had 1/2 a brain this game.

I mean, given that KoC never even went up on the block all game despite being such "obvious scum."

Complain about the set-up all you want, be my guest. But don't be trashing KoC.

[AurorusVox]

I think I townread KoC from d3f3nd3r's "scumslip" but then never realigned my view based on d3's townflip (he did flip town didn't he?)

@N,

[Nero Cain]

KOCs play was terrible and if there were more experienced players there's no way he would have lived.

The fact that KOC didn't get strung up has

NOTHING

to do with several players having scum reads on him. Alot of players had a scum read on him and he would have died if A.) there were less distractions and B.) the setup wasn't scumsided.

Congrads on the win and all, you, SB and DC played well but scum didn't win 'cause the scum play was so super awesome.

[guille2015]

This is the second time I've seen defender lynched the same way. The arguments against him was rather weak and Defender rarely defends himself.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Meh, as usual. Moderator makes scum team. Moderator goes "oh no, what if scum team plays poorly?" Moderator gives scumteam lots of cool things to save them from their own stupidity. Moderator goes "what if town plays poorly?" Moderator goes "meh, town deserves to lose if they play poorly."

Reinforces my opinion that you should always lynch Knights of Cydonia though.

And GreyICE reinforces my opinion that he's a gorram idiot who doesn't know shit about Mafia.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Maybe I'm bias but I do think it was scum sided. We could only lynch scum properly if we lynched 2x scum in one day, and that's fucken hard with no scumflips to start the fire going...

this. so much this.

no way KOC deserves MVP, he was fairly obvious scum and anyone with half a brain had a scum read on him.

Was impressed with red panda's play from d3 on.

MVP should be wichever townie played the worst.

And yet, despite the fact all of these people suddenly claim to have that half a brain necessary to call me scum, none of you ever actually realised that you could, together, have easily sent me to the gallows.
Half a brain is seriously over-rated, it appears.

[Sir Bastion]

YATTA!!!!

[mastin2]

Spoilered Dead QT

There should have been an extra town power role. Unfortunately, I forgot to write a role PM for it and so didn't send it out, and when I noticed it was too late. The role would've been the Courtroom Reporter and know which defendant was sent to the Judge, to the Jury, and to the Executioner. This might have tipped the game in scum's favor. My bad.

"Might Have"?
No, it definitely did, as my comments in the spoilered dead QT went into detail about.
Five scum with daytalk was incredibly powerful as it was--the risk of there being confirmed town was there, sure, but the town's true strength was in its power roles. A role to detect the executioner, a role to determine who went where so there'd be no ambiguity, and a role to catch people with blood on their hands. Working together, they'd have a stranglehold on the scum, hence why five with daytalk was fair.

Excluding said role, and the scum instantly have the advantage, for two reasons:
-The town is expecting there to be more power, allowing for scum fakeclaims, and
-The scum have more leverage, more freedom, because of the excluded role.

As a third consequence, think of Axel's fakeclaim name--it was very similar to an ACTUAL PLANNED ROLE. Was this good for Axel, yes, because it fit with your setup. However, had the extra role been included, THEY WOULD HAVE COUNTERCLAIMED AXEL'S SIMILAR NAMED ROLE. So basically, Axel would have been screwed, with two PR claims up against his single suspicious claim. ("I'm CC'ing.
...Um, well, err...not really. It's, uh, possible we're both town?"
Yeah. In the same post. How could people forget that, and dismiss it when Axel's fullclaim was a one-shot power used up N1?)
More than that, a two-against-one scenario would have also stopped Shadow's mislynch. Perhaps not the modkill, but at least the mislynch.

The game was only balanced with that extra role. The scum simply had too much influence otherwise.
Yes, you couldn't have predicted that one player would misread and misuse their role, yes, you couldn't have predicted that the second (and in fact, STRONGEST TOWN) role would fall to a VI that got itself modkilled, but the fact remains that a third role would have given the town far better odds than they had.

Not to undermine the scum's play, though. As I said in said spoilered QT, it's not that their play was bad. It was that their play was risky--if one of them had gone down, they almost certainly all would have.
Knowing the scum now, do an ISO of them. See how much they defend and interact with each other? For instance, KoC chainsaw defending both SC and Bastion? Yeah. One dead, all dead.

The scum's play did start out weak, but it got stronger, as the town's play got weaker. Combine this with their all-or-nothing play (KoC's gambit being an example of such), and that's why they won, so it was earned. It wasn't bad play, and in fact was very good play. Just incredibly risky, and had anyone caught on, they'd have been screwed thanks to the mechanics of the game.

To put it in simple terms:
The scum started out weak, but put their act together.
The town started out fairly well, but lost it as the game went on. (You kept on lynching the people who were correct, and ignoring their reads after they were dead. Thor, Nero, and MoS come to mind as dead people who shouldn't have been dismissed. ESPECIALLY MoS.)

The extra town PR would have likely helped the town in the former, and hindered the scum in the latter. Would it have ultimately made a difference, maybe; impossible to know. No way to know the "what if"s in the game. But off of the actual game itself, the scum did earn their victory. I'm just disappointed that a game I helped review had a critical element of it left out.

[mastin2]

- If this game would've been perfectly balanced, I think scum would've won too, just not perfectly.

If it wasn't clear, this is basically what I'm disagreeing with.
With how the scum played, it really was all-or-nothing. KoC was near the noose. SC was in the noose. Bastion was on the edge of the noose. (AV for scum MVP! ) DCL and Axel were under the radar. DCL had early attention on him, though, and with the flips of those three, it wouldn't be too hard to figure out who was heavily trying to keep the lynch off of them.
Axel was similar, only backwards--no early attention, heavy attention during claim, and then faded from the radar. Had people brought Axel back into the radar, ESPECIALLY looking at interactions and considering how the power Axel had didn't match or really compliment either other town PR, and he was going to go down as well.

Add in the conftown players who lead those lynches (such as Ser Panda, who by the end of the game was probably the town MVP), and the scum woulda had a hard time pulling off a victory.

It was either perfect total victory or no victory at all.

[BloodCovenent]

Holy shit. Mastin. Let's queue up for a game together.

[Nero Cain]

Maybe I'm bias but I do think it was scum sided. We could only lynch scum properly if we lynched 2x scum in one day, and that's fucken hard with no scumflips to start the fire going...

this. so much this.

no way KOC deserves MVP, he was fairly obvious scum and anyone with half a brain had a scum read on him.

Was impressed with red panda's play from d3 on.

MVP should be wichever townie played the worst.

And yet, despite the fact all of these people suddenly claim to have that half a brain necessary to call me scum, none of you ever actually realised that you could, together, have easily sent me to the gallows.
Half a brain is seriously over-rated, it appears.

Just 'cause you didn't get strung up doesn't mean that *I* didn't have a solid scum read on you. Both me and WC were on you all day 2. On day 2, most people had a town read on you. Like I said, if this were a more experienced town then there's no way you would have lived.