Mini Theme 1513: Theater Season Mafia: Day Four


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Post Post #2250 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:19 pm

Post by Gedak »

In post 2246, Mantisdreamz wrote:is that why you subbed out though, gedak? because you were given too much info from TAM? (that another player was town) whoops, TAM
No, I wasn't given too much info.
In post 2247, Mantisdreamz wrote:also, you wouldn't get off my back over the whole mafiaskk thing. you were tunelled.
I wouldn't get off your back, that's true. But I don't think I tunneled - why would you say that?

Tunneling IMO means someone concentrates exclusively on trying to get one other player lynched, to the exclusion of doing anything else of worth. That's not what I was doing. I was attacking you strongly, yes, but I was doing other stuff as well.

I made a strong attack on uct (). I had an (I think well-justified) townread on penguin (, . I was scumreading Smudger (mostly because he claimed watcher when I was a cop!). I townread Trollie just because I scumread Smudger (). I also scumread BRO and townread LM2/Mhork because of their interactions with you, because I incorrectly thought you were scum. I had an innocent on Alpazard, which I breadcrumbed (). I really tried to pressure Rach, Alpazard and LM2 to contribute more ().

I was doing a ton of stuff besides trying to get you lynched. In particular, I had that useful little conversation with you about penguin (starting around ), which if I was "tunneled" on you being scum, I presumably wouldn't have had.
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Post Post #2251 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:08 pm

Post by Gedak »

In post 2245, Mantisdreamz wrote:hmm... i didn't consider that
i was being honest in that i couldn't really see what use it might have had for town.
i mean, i gave my reads in thread... so that was out, (using it to re-instate my reads)
Yes, I also think it was mostly useless for town. If only we knew better!:
In post 2236, The Acting Method wrote:Cyrano De Bergerac was the ability to write a message to be sent in the mod post. This could have created a false innocent child situation had it been used not in frustration from being bullied. (cough GEDAK cough).
For you see, town has a lot of reasons for wanting to create a false innocent child situation! How terrible that my "bullying" stopped that possibility!
In post 2236, The Acting Method wrote:Also had it been given to a PR, it was a way to give results without claiming.
First of all, it probably won't get to a town PR, as town PRs generally tend to not want to attract too much attention or getting too townread,
especially on day 1
, so the most likely candidate to receive a day 1 kingpower is a VT.

But even then, let's say Mantis is an investigative PR and gets kinged with Cyrano Day 1. So on Day 1 this ability is still useless, even in the unlikely scenario that it goes to the right hands. So then, assuming she as a Kinged town PR survives to Day 2, she would then have the amazing ability to send a mod message giving her result. And in this situation, clearly nobody would even suspect that the message would have come from Mantis, but at the same time, clearly everyone would have trusted the anonymous message that could have come from anyone, including scum. The perfect plan.

So in town hands, this ability is about as powerful as breadcrumbing (it has some advantages and some disadvantages when compared to breadcrumbing, but it's roughly on the same level).
In post 2245, Mantisdreamz wrote:and i cheekishly thought that maybe putting a fake post restriction on you, at the time... might be fun.
what would you have done instead?
Post restrictions are fun, I get that, but making a real effort to pretend that your power does something other than what it does, with no obvious town-motivation for doing so, just made me very strongly scumread you. I've explained what I would have done in . It's boring, I know, so to compensate, I would have put some very obviously silly text in the Cyrano modpost message, kind of along the lines of .
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Post Post #2252 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:18 pm

Post by Gedak »

In post 1349, Gedak wrote:
In post 1275, BROseidon wrote:
In post 1213, Gedak wrote:BRO has also made several associative tells with Mantis.
I'm sorry for defending the obvtown. Wait...
Mantis is not obvtown. She's been very pro-town, very active. That is nice, and it makes her a good player, in the sense that she's making the game more enjoyable. But it tells us very little about her alignment.

Point out things she's done that scum-Mantis wouldn't have motivation for doing.

I'm not setting the bar unreasonably high: I've already pointed out several things that I think town-Mantis wouldn't have done. For you to actually have a strong townread on her (as opposed to being her buddy), you should be able to do the converse.
This was genuine by the way. I
was
considering the possibility that Mantis might be town, even though I thought it was very unlikely. But I was willing to listen, and I explicitly asked BRO to provide his reasons. If he made a good enough case, I would have been willing to change my view.

I'm still interested to hear BRO's take on Mantis. I didn't like Mantis' end-of-day1 behaviour, and I really really didn't like the way she used Cyrano, so I'm curious why you thought she was obvtown. Also interested in Nacho's thoughts on this, since he also read her as obvtown.
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Post Post #2253 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:31 pm

Post by Psyche »

smudger was pretty dickish
You can't step in the same river twice.
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Post Post #2254 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:37 pm

Post by Mantisdreamz »

i don't get how innocent child could have come into play. maybe that needs to be slowly processed for me to understand.

also ya, gedak - post 940, is still a joke post. so what i'm getting from this, is that you also wouldn't have known what to do with it. unless of course you were a PR or scum.
being vanilla town, i had nothing.
/grrr

crosspost. he wasn't really, psyche. lord mhork was emotional. and he didn't apologize and fess up that he was wrong about smudger.
LM - you should have. you were in the wrong
but i can also see why you might not have wanted to, simply because smudge was calling you an amateur.
i dunno, it was kind of dumb, guys.
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Post Post #2255 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:48 pm

Post by Mantisdreamz »

also psyche, i'm going to search out games that you sign up for, so that i can continue harassing you. just so you know
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Post Post #2256 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:56 pm

Post by Lord Mhork »

Ok so normally I don't compose big posts about games because I'm usually super chill about the results and am totally ok with losing. However this game was different to me and for some reason affected me in a way no other game has thus far. So yeah. I'm gonna ramble a bit to try to clear my head and hopefully make some closure happen.

Ok so first of all I'm going to say that I do not feel this was a balanced game, and that it was really townsided. What we have here is a 3:10 setup with the following roles:
~Misdirecting Godfather: the role is clearly the strongest in a vacuum, however I'm not sure of how useful it actually ended up being. While there was a cop, misdirector means that I could still get pinged by a scumteam dude. In addition if the costumer hits me, all of a sudden my claim is rendered absolutely void and I appear to be lying. And then there is the tracker who can try to follow me and catch 'me' doing something to someone else and appearing to lie about not doing it. Then there was a watcher role which directly renders my ability void. Overall I think this was probably the strongest scum role, but it was still a very watered down godfather-lite.

~Doublevoteish giver thing?: Whatever uct's role was supposed to be, no one understood it and I don't think it was nearly as powerful as you thought it would be. A) if he had actually known what he was doing and it was revealed to consistently 'randomly' hit a guy who then flips scum, people easily could figure the pattern out and narrow the pool down to whomever gets hit by the vote. B) he was so confused that I don't think he ever actually used it. The wording here definitely needed improvement, and moreover the power level needed to be jacked up. Maybe an actual king doublevoter. Maybe a flat double voter. As it was, he was a named goon.

~Sorta semiextra killer of people if they target someone if he finds them guy: I literally have no idea what this was supposed to be. You have a scum role conditional on finding a town role with and ability that is conditional on someone visiting said town role. I mean I can understand why you thought it was powerful since it would be extra free mafia kills, but the Lead died early leaving us with another named goon. In addition the odds of him and another PR targeting the same person in one night are super duper tiny. He should have had something happen when his love died. Literally anything at all.

As it was, I view this scum team as basically two goons and a weaker godfather. There was almost no actual night power here.

Now the town:
~6 VTs. Honestly with the pitiful power of the scum here, I think 7 or 8 would have been a much better number of VTs. Especially with kinging bringing in more abilities, but that's a whole other section.

Sleepwalker: If I understand this role correctly, it's either a weaker tracker or a bodyguard. I like this. It's really like the flexibility of this and I think it's a cool idea. I don't think that town needed this much extra power and flexibility though.

Cop: A cop is a cop. This is a super powerful role, and this goes without saying. Like, this should have been the only solid town PR and it should have been the strongest. Cop confirms townies. In a game where you're looking for conftowns to king with mega abilities, cop is a MASSIVE ROLE. It does basically everything the town needs. This alone, I feel, balances the game. Cop and 9 VTs vs weak godfather and 2 goons with this kinging would have worked.

Doc/Vig: This was far too powerful in my opinion. You have an unlimited-shot vigilante who can also decide to not shoot to not accidentally hit townies and can still double as a doc. Both of them can fuck over the scum's one ability: killing in the night. Since that's really all scum had with regard to targeting abilities in the night, this one player is basically better than the entire scum team. In fact not even basically. He could do everything scum could and more
and was town
. This plus cop already means that balance is MASSIVELY in favor of the town. Also follow the cop can turn on with no issues.

Flavor Cop: This was just icing on the cake for the town with the added bonus of directly making my role into confscum should they claim. It's a cool idea and all, but town did not need this in any way, shape, or form on any level. This demonstrates how utterly overpowered this town was.

In addition each of these town roles was perfectly clear and powerful, while two of the scum roles didn't even really makes sense at all. In short, this game was massively town sided.

Now for the kinging abilities:
First of all I'm going to come flat out and say this: you should have expected king abilities to go to the town 9 times out of 10. Let me put it this way: town controls the majority of the king votes. Because of that, they only need one strong town read to make sure the ability goes to town. That means that scum's only tactic is to either BECOME the strongest town read or campaign hard and hope that their buddy doesn't flip and make them look bad. In addition, with the PRs you gave town, you should honestly never have expected a single king ability. Ever.

Keeping that in mind, the abilities:
Cyrano: NOT as powerful as you think it is. At all. A scum being able to 'fake' and IC post does not make up for them having no power at all. This was basically a way for town PRs to get their role info out without outing themselves. Pure town upside; hard to reach town maybe-upside

Midsummer: Does this confirm townies to one another? If so, how does this help scum? If it let's scum claim mason and have you endorse it, is this role not bastard modding? As for town, though, it's yay more copping with pure upside.

Antigone: Bullshit watcher role. How did you determine percentages? Also, this is another pure 100% town role. Like, why would scum want this? Ever? I mean maybe scum uses this to try to find PRs, but then it doesn't even do that for them. It's a pure town role.

Equus: I don't understand this role on any level.

Hair: This is not good. How does this help scum? What does it do except concentrate results and give pure upside to town.
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Post Post #2257 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:58 pm

Post by Lord Mhork »

tl;dr: this game was so far town sided that scum should have just been all N1 Suicidals for the amount of stuff they could do


I will be on later to do more personal statements on players and to ramble about how replacements actually ruin games for everyone.
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Post Post #2258 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:01 pm

Post by Gedak »

In post 2254, Mantisdreamz wrote:i don't get how innocent child could have come into play. maybe that needs to be slowly processed for me to understand.
I was being sarcastic. I see no reason why a fake innocent child gambit would have benefitted town. It could have backfired massively.
In post 2254, Mantisdreamz wrote:also ya, gedak - post 940, is still a joke post. so what i'm getting from this, is that you also wouldn't have known what to do with it. unless of course you were a PR or scum.
being vanilla town, i had nothing.
/grrr
Yes, that's what I'm saying. That the ability was mostly useless for town, and especially useless for a VT. The best one could do with it imo was to just use it in a way that doesn't freak out the town. Making a joke that's very clearly just a joke, for example.

You know, with you
threatening me with a dayvig
, even in jest -- it never even crossed your mind that there's a possibility that I'm an informational PR? Threatening an investigative PR with a dayvig, that's probably one of the worst thing you could have done. Remember I already had an investigative result at the time, which I had only just barely crumbed in .

Of course, after I pointed out the possibility of a dayvig, I thought it was pretty unlikely that you'd actually dayvig me so blatantly, but thinking about who would try to pretend to dayvig me like that and why -- I thought that this "prank" would be something actual townies would never try to pull off. There is no town-motivation for it, and it presents some unnecessary danger in potentially outing a PR if the PR is too paranoid. And you did think that I was being very paranoid. So this even further solidified my scumread on you.
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Post Post #2259 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:02 pm

Post by Mantisdreamz »

a wall!
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Post Post #2260 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:06 pm

Post by Mantisdreamz »

i have to give you, LM and uct -- that uct's role was incredibly confusing
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Post Post #2261 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:15 pm

Post by Mantisdreamz »

In post 2258, Gedak wrote:
In post 2254, Mantisdreamz wrote:i don't get how innocent child could have come into play. maybe that needs to be slowly processed for me to understand.
I was being sarcastic. I see no reason why a fake innocent child gambit would have benefitted town. It could have backfired massively.
In post 2254, Mantisdreamz wrote:also ya, gedak - post 940, is still a joke post. so what i'm getting from this, is that you also wouldn't have known what to do with it. unless of course you were a PR or scum.
being vanilla town, i had nothing.
/grrr
Yes, that's what I'm saying. That the ability was mostly useless for town, and especially useless for a VT. The best one could do with it imo was to just use it in a way that doesn't freak out the town. Making a joke that's very clearly just a joke, for example.
so why couldn't you see that at the time???? that is was useless for me ... christ.
You know, with you
threatening me with a dayvig
, even in jest -- it never even crossed your mind that there's a possibility that I'm an informational PR? Threatening an investigative PR with a dayvig, that's probably one of the worst thing you could have done. Remember I already had an investigative result at the time, which I had only just barely crumbed in .

Of course, after I pointed out the possibility of a dayvig, I thought it was pretty unlikely that you'd actually dayvig me so blatantly, but thinking about who would try to pretend to dayvig me like that and why -- I thought that this "prank" would be something actual townies would never try to pull off. There is no town-motivation for it, and it presents some unnecessary danger in potentially outing a PR if the PR is too paranoid. And you did think that I was being very paranoid. So this even further solidified my scumread on you.
i was trolling at the time. and i admit that it was a bad move. i didn't really think that you were a PR at the time.
i honestly barely remember trying to day vig you? either way, it's a reaction test. i honestly don't think there's anything wrong with that. reaction testing, that is.
but seriously gedak... i know you say you weren't tunnelled on me...but you totally were. it stopped you from seeing other things, because you were so focused.

and because you were tunnelled on me, is why i ended up wanting to troll you a little.
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Post Post #2262 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:21 pm

Post by notscience »

Mhork, replacements played against town before Nacho subbed in. Saying that you shouldn't have to convince 4 extra people is true, yes, but town has to deal with sorting them all as well. Town has to try and WORK with them if they appear town.
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Post Post #2263 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:22 pm

Post by uctriton00 »

*gives power to Psyche*

Mod in PM: Psyche you get a double vote.

Psyche: Let's king Mantis

King votes:
Mantis (1): Psyche
Trollie (1): Psyche


Psyche: wtf was that? I unvote.

King votes:
-none-


Psyche: This is weird. King Mantis.

King votes:
Mantis (1): Psyche
LM (1): Psyche


Psyche: wtf is going on here? Unvote.

King votes:
-none-


Psyche: Mod are you on crack? I'm trying to vote Mantis. Vote: Mantis.

King votes:
Mantis (1): Psyche
Triton (1): Psyche


Psyche: Why are votes going to Trollie, LM, and Triton?

--------

That is how I pictured what was happening, and my concern is exactly what Mhork said.
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Post Post #2264 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:24 pm

Post by Gedak »

In post 2261, Mantisdreamz wrote:but seriously gedak... i know you say you weren't tunnelled on me...but you totally were. it stopped you from seeing other things, because you were so focused.
It didn't stop me from looking at other things (). So I was not tunneling, unless we have different definitions of tunneling.

What I was doing was scumreading you very strongly. This coloured my perception of other players' interactions with you. As it should: if one has a strong scumread, it makes no sense to completely disregard that when looking at player interactions. The problem was that my scumread on you was obviously incorrect.
In post 2261, Mantisdreamz wrote:and because you were tunnelled on me, is why i ended up wanting to troll you a little.
This ended up making me even more convinced that you're scum. I don't see what else you would have expected trolling me would accomplish.
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Post Post #2265 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:27 pm

Post by Gedak »

Mhork, I completely agree that this game was really town-sided and ridiculously badly designed. I think I'll write a wall on that too.
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Post Post #2266 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:28 pm

Post by notscience »

And trollie's role was also a RB so you kinda understated his power
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Post Post #2267 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:08 pm

Post by Gedak »

Psyche, was I correct in thinking that you were pretending to be a PR to try to draw the NK?
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Post Post #2268 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:11 pm

Post by notscience »

Town had a metric fuckton of power

imo to balance it scum needed-

to mix the GF and RB
a JoaT
and maybe a role that inhibits the plays
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Post Post #2269 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:25 pm

Post by BROseidon »

In post 2252, Gedak wrote:This was genuine by the way. I was considering the possibility that Mantis might be town, even though I thought it was very unlikely. But I was willing to listen, and I explicitly asked BRO to provide his reasons. If he made a good enough case, I would have been willing to change my view.

I'm still interested to hear BRO's take on Mantis. I didn't like Mantis' end-of-day1 behaviour, and I really really didn't like the way she used Cyrano, so I'm curious why you thought she was obvtown. Also interested in Nacho's thoughts on this, since he also read her as obvtown.
Uh, gut/it was obvious?

I don't remember what the backend reasoning was, or if I ever bothered to build a back-end case b/c it was that obvious to me, and I thought it should have been to everyone else.
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Post Post #2270 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:29 pm

Post by Gedak »

In post 1345, Gedak wrote:I still maintain my townread on Trollie. I don't think
scum
would fakeclaim this.
Here I thought that Trollie was in fact fakeclaiming, except not as scum but as the town doc (doing what little he can to try to avoid the NK).

The reason for that is that I didn't belive Smudger's claim, because I thought it would have been far too overpowered for town: he claimed that he's a powerful town PR, and saw another powerful town PR (presumed doc) visiting, while I was a powerful town PR myself as well.
In post 1231, Gedak wrote:think about how overpowered a town-aligned watcher would be with the kingmaker-like mechanic used here
Especially if there's a doc too. And even more especially if there's a cop too (which I knew but obviously couldn't say).

So I thought there's no way this game is that unbalanced. Two strong informational town roles (Smudger + me) plus a Doc plus King abilities? Yeah, no way, I thought. Which made me conclude that, as ridiculous as that is after his claim, Smudger somehow must be scum for the game to be balanced.

And if Smudger was scum, then Trollie had to be town. And if Trollie was town and he visited Mantis, then I thought he would be a doc.
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Post Post #2271 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:37 pm

Post by notscience »

Only reason I backtracked on my backtrack on Nacho's claim was because he softed it in his first claim of the game and I was like "oh"
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Post Post #2272 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:40 pm

Post by Gedak »

In post 2271, notscience wrote:Only reason I backtracked on my backtrack on Nacho's claim was because he softed it in his first claim of the game and I was like "oh"
Sorry, I'm not following, please explain?
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Post Post #2273 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:41 pm

Post by notscience »

The cop claim

I didn't believe it until I remembered his entrance post said both me and Rach were really fucking town
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Post Post #2274 (ISO) » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:41 pm

Post by Gedak »

Yeah, I thought, "very subtle, Nacho".

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