Open 278: Empking's Five Player

[Cthulhu]

I've got an idea: Why don't we vote for who's going to be investigated?

What's the use in killing them and then investigating them? Unless I have misunderstood the nature of this game.

[bv310]

I meant instead of voting we vote for the investigation. In retrospect, it's not actually that great an idea.

[Cthulhu]

I meant instead of voting we vote for the investigation. In retrospect, it's not actually that great an idea.

I don't think your idea is that good because the mafia could encourage the unknown cop to investigate someone they know is town. Your slight case of self doubt and backpedalling doesn't look that good either.

[bvoigt]

I agree with the logic of a D1 no-lynch, but

since it was the first thing brought up obviously all scum has to do is agree

. Of course a lynch would benefit them more, but now they are just along for the ride till the end of day 1. How do we gain any suspicions if there is not people getting on and off wagons and pushing for a lynch? Who would be willing to cast a vote (for us to analyze and over analyze) if we all just agree on a no-lynch. Yes, a no-lynch is better but I wish we had had some discussion before somebody pointed it out.

FOS: Stefunny

It looks like you know I'm town, since I brought it up first and you're saying that scum are going to agree.

Funny, how does it appear that I know you are town? For all I know you are scum and just trying to appear town. I just think it was silly to bring it up before anybody had a chance to begin discussion.

The bolded implies that I brought it up, and scum are going to agree. At least to me, it seems that you know I'm town.

I meant instead of voting we vote for the investigation. In retrospect, it's not actually that great an idea.

As Cthulu said, why are you backpedaling so quickly?

[bv310]

Because I no longer think the idea's any good. I initially intended it to be a replacement for actual voting (and thus generate discussion), but on further thought it doesn't seem to be effective.

[brokenscraps]

I was reaching slightly, although I'm curious as to how Stefunny thought we would win the game with 1 lynch. She herself said once the no-lynch is brought up all scum have to do is agree, and the fact that she didn't actually seem to understand why we would be no-lynching makes it look like she is just agreeing because everyone else is.

[Stefunny]

I've never played in a game where a No-lynch was even considered D1. When I count out deaths I count 2 a day, so I was sitting there eating lunch reading the thread on my phone and all I could think was in 2 days 4 will be dead, how does that make sense? Duh, no-lynch, that's how.

Also, discussing who we want to be investigated MAY not be a bad idea. I guess the way I read the cop position is they can only investigate ONE night, and instead of them secretly finding out the targets role it is published in the thread. I think using that N1 would be better than waiting seeing as how the scum only have 3 targets. There is a 1 in 3 chance they will kill cop.

[brokenscraps]

I don't think your idea is that good because the mafia could encourage the unknown cop to investigate someone they know is town.

In that case it will still provide something to scumhunt with tomorrow. Otherwise it could be a case of:

Day 1: Everyone no-lynches, not much revealed
Day 2:
Investigated scum: everyone just hops on that lynch, not much revealed
Investigated town: 50% chance of hitting scum without very much to go on
Day 3:
Investigated scum: 33.33% chance of hitting scum without very much to go on
Investigated scum: 33.33% chance of hitting scum using info from day 2 patterns

I'd prefer having something to go on tomorrow even if it means we don't have a confirmed scum to lynch.

[bv310]

Scraps, by having the cop claim before then end of day (this has to happen), we have either a scum and a confirmed Townie (with a 3-man LyLo at the end) or two confirmed Townies, and a 66% chance of hitting scum and a 3-man LyLo.

[brokenscraps]

Okay so the statistics are better as a result of cop claiming but we would still have more to go on for scumhunting if we discussed and voted on who is to be investigated tonight.

[bvoigt]

If we vote on who to investigate, what is the best strategy? Vote for someone who is hard to read? Or vote for your top suspect and hope for a guilty?

[brokenscraps]

Top suspect definitely.

We should have a way of handling this as well. Cop vote counts and such, we should model it as closely to real voting as possible without actual voting.

Also, if there is a majority opinion that this is the right thing to do everyone should be expected to participate and the cop should conform to town wishes otherwise none of it is useful.

Now on to actual suspicions:

I've never played in a game where a No-lynch was even considered D1. When I count out deaths I count 2 a day, so I was sitting there eating lunch reading the thread on my phone and all I could think was in 2 days 4 will be dead, how does that make sense? Duh, no-lynch, that's how.

Stefunny didn't seem to realize that mafia have even night kills which seems like something mafia would know. I think she is probably town because of this.

I'm getting nullish-reads from bv310; him changing his mind without any sort of pressure shows he was thinking about whether voting for investigation was a good idea, but whether he was thinking about whether it looked scummy to suggest it or whether it would help the town is unclear. I'm leaning town because he would know that changing your mind is often targeted as a scum tell by players, but this isn't very strong.

Cthulhu needs to post a lot more but I'm a little wary of his apparent confusion over the set-up, it seems feigned compared to Stefunny's. Also:

I see but I was just wondering how discussion would start to begin with. I have to admit I wouldn't have picked up on it in my first post, I probably would have made a random vote then read the rules and took another look at the setup so I would have fallen for the trap, but that's mainly inexperience.

I don't think your idea is that good because the mafia could encourage the unknown cop to investigate someone they know is town. Your slight case of self doubt and backpedalling doesn't look that good either.

There seems a contradiction that he jumps on bv310 for rethinking something to do with how to play the game in the set-up while also saying he would've done the same thing (over a different issue, of course, but still similar enough that there is a contradiction if he finds one a town action and one a scum action).

bvoigt also could go either way right now; I'd love to know what he thinks of Stefunny atm.

Anyway,

CSI(Cop Should Investigate): Cthulhu

[bv310]

@Mod, could we get a prod on Cthulhu?

I don't like how he just jumped in, tried to push a bit, then dropped back into the background.

[Zajnet]

@Mod, could we get a prod on Cthulhu?

It is done.

[Cthulhu]

There seems a contradiction that he jumps on bv310 for rethinking something to do with how to play the game in the set-up while also saying he would've done the same thing (over a different issue, of course, but still similar enough that there is a contradiction if he finds one a town action and one a scum action).

I still don't really get this case however I will try and guess at a defence. When you say I jump on bv310, I presume you are referring to me me questioning him about his suggestion at the top of page two. I asked him to clarify his suggestion and then when he did I stated that I thought it was a bad idea, which bv310 agreed with. Since then though it has shown to be a good idea. I was questioning the validity of his idea. On the previous page I stated that I wouldn't have looked at the set up straight away had bvoigt not mentioned that we should no lynch, and that I would have voted first before going back and looking more closely. If you case rests on the fact that I portray bv310's questioning of the set up as scummy and my reappraisal as town then your case is weaker than I first thought.

If it isn't this then please clarify your argument. However, I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy, I was merely questioning his idea and then stating that I thought it was bad. It isn't scummy to have a bad idea, it is however to backpedal so quickly. Also I wasn't portraying my own actions as a town action; I was saying that I would have done that out of inexperience.

[bvoigt]

I've never played in a game where a No-lynch was even considered D1. When I count out deaths I count 2 a day, so I was sitting there eating lunch reading the thread on my phone and all I could think was in 2 days 4 will be dead, how does that make sense? Duh, no-lynch, that's how.

Stefunny didn't seem to realize that mafia have even night kills which seems like something mafia would know. I think she is probably town because of this.

You're right about this...Stefunny is probably town. Brokenscraps also looks town so far, so by process of elimination, the scumteam is Cthulhu/bv310.

UnFOS: Stefunny

bv310 hasn't done anything overly scummy, but I still don't like that he was so quick to change his mind when Cthulhu questioned him.

Cthulhu's posts seem to be focusing on defending himself and asking meaningless (not truly meaningless, just non-scumhunting related) questions rather than scumhunting. Also:

If it isn't this then please clarify your argument. However, I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy, I was merely questioning his idea and then stating that I thought it was bad. It isn't scummy to have a bad idea, it is however to backpedal so quickly. Also I wasn't portraying my own actions as a town action; I was saying that I would have done that out of inexperience.

You weren't portraying his actions as scummy, yet you though it was scummy to backpedal so quickly? And as for the last sentence, the point is that you, if town, know that you are town. If you would rethink your own actions as town, why would you call someone scummy for rethinking?

CSI: Cthulhu

[Stefunny]

Good lord, maybe I should read set ups to games I am joining?
Sorry for my ridiculous newbishness.
I am rereading based on information that has been brought to my attention -_-

[bvoigt]

Slow reader?

[Cthulhu]

Cthulhu's posts seem to be focusing on defending himself and asking meaningless (not truly meaningless, just non-scumhunting related) questions rather than scumhunting. Also:

If it isn't this then please clarify your argument. However, I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy, I was merely questioning his idea and then stating that I thought it was bad. It isn't scummy to have a bad idea, it is however to backpedal so quickly. Also I wasn't portraying my own actions as a town action; I was saying that I would have done that out of inexperience.

You weren't portraying his actions as scummy, yet you though it was scummy to backpedal so quickly? And as for the last sentence, the point is that you, if town, know that you are town. If you would rethink your own actions as town, why would you call someone scummy for rethinking?

CSI: Cthulhu

Your first point is just silly. My last post was solely in defence of myself but the others have been okay; you even acknowledge that my questioning of bv310 was useful. You need to read my posts more carefully and stop misrepresenting them. I made it clear in my last post that I don't think it is scummy to have a bad idea. I didn't think it was scummy for bv310 to suggest his idea that we thought was bad, what was scummy though was his backpedalling. The two are different things. I can see that your last point has a slight degree of merit however I think comparing my actions with bv310's isn't credible because they are too different. My rethinking was planning to make a random vote and then looking back at the set up and rules, this is because it is convention for starting a game and I would do that irrespective of my role. bv310's action is different because he backpedalled so quickly, but when the idea was shown to be good with the statistics, he was on side again. This could be seen as flippant and oppurtunistic. The actions are too differnet for a comparison between them to be valid. Your vague assertion that all actions that constitute rethinking are the same and therefore should be treated as either town or scum actions is peculiar. I don't really understand it. Overall I'd say your case is fairly weak and that you've decided to instruct the cop to investigate me quite prematurely, we are only on the second page, is that enough to get such solid reads as yours?

The activity level has sort of dropped. Especially with bviogt and brokenscraps very kindly taking turns to question me, and Stefunny and bv310 fading into the background. I would like to know what you two think since I already have two 'cop votes' against me (Stefunny and bv310 that is).

[bvoigt]

Your first point is just silly. My last post was solely in defence of myself but the others have been okay; you even acknowledge that my questioning of bv310 was useful. You need to read my posts more carefully and stop misrepresenting them.

Eh, I guess you're right on this point. ISO makes posts such as #25 look much worse than they are.

I made it clear in my last post that I don't think it is scummy to have a bad idea. I didn't think it was scummy for bv310 to suggest his idea that we thought was bad, what was scummy though was his backpedalling. The two are different things.

At one point, you said, "I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy." In other words, you didn't think anything he did was scummy. But now you're saying that his backpedaling was scummy. So why can't you keep your story straight?

I can see that your last point has a slight degree of merit however I think comparing my actions with bv310's isn't credible because they are too different. My rethinking was planning to make a random vote and then looking back at the set up and rules, this is because it is convention for starting a game and I would do that irrespective of my role. bv310's action is different because he backpedalled so quickly, but when the idea was shown to be good with the statistics, he was on side again. This could be seen as flippant and oppurtunistic. The actions are too differnet for a comparison between them to be valid. Your vague assertion that all actions that constitute rethinking are the same and therefore should be treated as either town or scum actions is peculiar. I don't really understand it.

You were going to make a random vote, but decided it against it because it would be a poor strategic decision regardless of alignment. bv310 had a different idea, but also changed his mind based on its strategic merits. It would have been anti-town not to change his mind, just like it would have been anti-town to random vote. So yeah, I do think these two examples of rethinking boil down to the same thing.

Overall I'd say your case is fairly weak and that you've decided to instruct the cop to investigate me quite prematurely, we are only on the second page, is that enough to get such solid reads as yours?

I'm just treating this as a regular page 2 vote...it's not like I can't change it if new information comes up.

[brokenscraps]

I've pushed myself too forward in this game for me to have a better than average chance of avoiding the night 2 nightkill so I'm gonna go ahead and claim now:

I'm the one-shot publishing cop

.

Cthulhu is wrong about backpedaling in the way bv310 did being scummy (so is bvoigt); bv310 didn't change his mind because of pressure ("What's the use in killing them and then investigating them? Unless I have misunderstood the nature of this game." is not pressure or on-target questioning) and it isn't clear that he changed his position for scum reasons (he could have done so, but it isn't apparent that he did).

I was questioning the validity of his idea.

bv310 posted his changed position after you misunderstood his suggestion, not after you also called it a bad idea. He was in fact the first person in the thread to call the idea of voting who to investigate a bad idea.

BTW: Cthulhu, it would be nice if you could split your posts into easier to read paragraphs

You're right about this...Stefunny is probably town. Brokenscraps also looks town so far, so by process of elimination, the scumteam is Cthulhu/bv310.

bv310 and Cthulhu bussing would be interesting considering their suspicions on each other both seem pretty weak. I'm not prepared to buy it yet though especially since I'm starting to think you're scum.

bv310 hasn't done anything overly scummy, but I still don't like that he was so quick to change his mind when Cthulhu questioned him.

Doesn't seem right considering you also claim:

bv310 had a different idea, but also changed his mind based on its strategic merits. It would have been anti-town not to change his mind

You think he changed his mind for pro-town strategy ("doing this would be bad for town") rather than pro-scum strategy ("pushing this would look bad on me"), you think doing anything else would've been anti-town, yet you find it scummy (not "overly" but you do call him as part of a scum-team)?

unCSI: Cthulhu

CSI: bvoigt

[Stefunny]

Sorry I've been absent. I will post after work (In about 5 hours or so)

[bv310]

Coulda sworn I posted in here yesterday. Anyway, I'll get a post in tonight. Writing my 2nd of 3 midterm papers atm.

[bvoigt]

bv310 hasn't done anything overly scummy, but I still don't like that he was so quick to change his mind when Cthulhu questioned him.

Doesn't seem right considering you also claim:

bv310 had a different idea, but also changed his mind based on its strategic merits. It would have been anti-town not to change his mind

You think he changed his mind for pro-town strategy ("doing this would be bad for town") rather than pro-scum strategy ("pushing this would look bad on me"), you think doing anything else would've been anti-town, yet you find it scummy (not "overly" but you do call him as part of a scum-team)?

unCSI: Cthulhu

CSI: bvoigt

The first quote refers to post #26, when he changed his mind without any real reason. The second quote refers to...actually, I guess he never explicitly said that he had re-changed his mind, but #33 was mainly adding to what you said in the post before it...using numbers to show why it

was

a good idea to have the cop claim. Basically, #26 was scummy; #33 was null because it would have been anti-town not to agree with your logic.

[Stefunny]

Slow reader?

No, just slow -_-;;

After rereading the thread (and the set up, good grief) I think I understand how this is going to play out. Honestly if nobody else has counterclaimed it is pretty safe to say Broken is the cop, which makes it fairly easy to narrow it down to two scum. I honestly think BVoigt is probably scum. He was the first one to suggest a no-lynch and when I asked about the no lynch he seemed to get really defensive. To the point where he seriously wanted to vote me because I thought a no-lynch suggestion was not a great idea (Granted, it was a good idea, I just was being a dolt.) It was just a quick vote that seemed sort of unfounded.

I know it's not a great case, but I don't think bv310 is scum (just a feeling) and Scraps isn't scum, so honestly I think it HAS to be Cthulu and BVoigt.

Either one of those being investigated would benefit us. Yes, BVoigt does want us to CSI Cthulu, but with only 5 people it's going to be harder for them to not fake suspicions of eachther without looking suspicious themselves. I actually think this set up is harder for scum now that I've rethought the set up. Once cop claims it can narrow down pretty quick.