Otters vs. Tigers vs. Sharks - GAME OVER

[Amrun]

Seeing a tiger win after a Day 1 tiger lynch was pretty exciting, and pretty ironic, after the forum crash. Ha.

camn, don't feel too bad! You were missing the Fate lynch, which was instrumental, and working with the archive at all was difficult at best. I think you did a good job, for someone put in your position. I was pretty terrified of post-crash replacements, and you definitely got the short end of the stick. I was actually really glad when Thor was lynched because I was almost positive he was flaking. He picked up his death PM thinking it was a prod, so it wasn't QUITE as bad as I feared, but he was too busy to contribute properly in any case.

[camn]

HA!

I just read the last part of the Tiger QT... and you were right, DGB, but also wrong..

I DID think you were town. I really did.
But there was a little kernel of doubt.. and in light of it, i did NOT want you to NK me...... but only

BECAUSE

I wanted to go 1v1 on you in endgame.
You must know that is my dream.

YOU

.

ME

.
Some confirmed townie.
For all the marbles.

I WANT IT!

[kdowns]

About Vi/CKG... I FUCKING TOLD YOu

[Amrun]

If anyone is inclined, I would love some constructive criticism, design-wise. I invented some roles and included some very rare roles, along with some factional roles and a couple of supremely normal roles, like town roleblocker.

Basic idea of the design:

Tigers had one public collective power role (janitor) that is a double-edged sword: janitored kills can provide the tigers with ironclad fakeclaims and burdens the town with WIFOM, but increases the chance that tigers can be tracked etc. This ended up frightening the tigers out of using this ability, most of the time, despite the fact that actual roles that threatened tigers choosing to janitor were rare (though of course they would not know that). Tigers also had a secret collective ability: being bulletproof against sharks. The idea behind all of the abilities being collective is that I did not want one tiger to be any more important than the others. I also wanted to test out these two new mechanics.

Sharks were designed to be very different than the tigers. Unlike the tigers, there was a large degree of difference in importance for different sharks. One shark couldn't kill and was least valuable; two had power roles. I wanted to see if this would create power dynamics in thread and out. The scum didn't fight much, but I'm sure Vi's role is a big part of what prompted her to throw herself off of the rafters, as it were. The role cop was put in as a complement to the tigers' janitor ability; the framer was put in to counter the shark cop. The weak goon, though a surface disadvantage for the sharks, was actually a sort of godfather for the psychiatrist (psychologist) and therefore a secret benefit as well.

For town, I wanted the power roles to be different and fun while synergizing with the scum abilities without giving too much away. Since the sharks got extra numbers, I needed to give town a good way to foil them; that was implosion, the shark cop. This role's complement, the tiger doctor, was meant to be a foil for the tigers but not the sharks, as the sharks already were at a kill disadvantage with not being able to kill tigers. The roleblocker was a powerrole that targeted the sharks more than the tigers, because the tigers could send two or more people for a kill, meaning that if one was roleblocked, the kill would still go through. The pyschiatrist/psychologist, though weak, targeted tigers because by the end of Night 1, it was possible that all three tigers would return "guilty" while only one shark would. The mason lovers matchmakers were another double-edged sword; their ability was powerful, though required a flip to be useful, and their masonry was a tool that could be used to a strong pair's advantage - though all weakened, of course, by the fact that they were lovers. The fisherman was essentially a weakened JOAT whose skills were the most powerful in the game as they weren't at all factional, but he couldn't plan ahead as he would not know if or when he received his powers. The coroner and DNA analyst was a very powerful role that targeted tigers primarily, but also had the potential to catch sharks. Test 1 (coroner ability) had the potential to catch a tiger in a fakeclaim but was useful for town regardless, and Test 2 (DNA Analyst) had the potential to catch the ENTIRE TIGER SCUMTEAM AT ONCE (though this was astronomically unlikely). As it turned out, Elmo died using Test 1 and never used Test 2. The poisoner was easily the swingiest, and most pivotal, role for the town. Its kills could not be prevented except by the town roleblocker and could not be predicted; the poisoner could kill sharks OR tigers.

Thoughts on this, and how it worked out, and anywhere I went wrong?

Also, I hope everyone enjoyed the flavor as much as I enjoyed writing it!

[Umbrage]

OWAIT was this the game where I was all "DGB is obvscum" and you were all "duh, we're dumb sheep"?

It was! Yet another reason why you ALWAYS LISTEN TO UMBRAGE.

[Umbrage]

About Vi/CKG... I FUCKING TOLD YOu

*brofist*

[Umbrage]

GG Amrun, if the setup had a flaw it was that it wasn't Umbrage-proof, but then few things are.

FATE WHERE ARE YOU? You were my bestest buddy. I mean, I would've had to have you killed eventually, but still!

Pine, WTF man, you were actually town? How embarrassing this must be for you! Suck it sweetheart.

Elmo was town? P sure I called that as well.

Oh, BTW everyone involved in this game except the tigers and Fate is now my bitch for eternity. I always knew I was better than you, and now I have the proof for it. Don't think I'm ever going to forget this. And you had better never forget the first rule of mafia:

ALWAYS

LISTEN

TO UMBRAGE.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Whats sad is after learning Umbrage's role I was debating on using my 2nd test on DGB

[camn]

If you had actually flipped town, I might have, Umbrage.
But the Janitor thing killed me. I had to look at your play alone--which read SCUM SCUM SCUM.

[Om of the Nom]

Good game guys. I'm sorry I had to replace out on D1, I just couldn't keep up.

[BBmolla]

Setup was good, town may have been a lil underpowered, but it's hard to tell with how badly we sucked.

[Amrun]

You think town should have more power, or more numbers?

[Om of the Nom]

Reading the Tiger QT I totally want to be scum with DGB now.

[BBmolla]

You think town should have more power, or more numbers?

Probably more numbers would work better, town had debateably enough power they just... well all died.

[MrBuddyLee]

Cool flavor, setup was a bit fancy, which is why we're here talking about roles roles roles instead of about scumhunting in the postgame.

Thanks for sticking it out through the forums collapse.

[Quilford]

yay win

also lol at everyone being LOL WHY WOULD SOME1 KILL A TIGER MILLER??

honestly

it's because zMuffinMan freakin' owns. i didn't give a shit about his role, he was too good to be left alive

and after he and Fate died, I was clear. The rest of the game was pretty plain sailing during the daytime, I got a bit jumpy at night (and sent some pretty lulz PMs to amrun, haha)

[redFF]

Wp dgb

[redFF]

Camn did really well. Eh I thought quil was town too.

[David Xanatos]

Still don't like the idea that Tigers were effectively BP from the outset. That effectively makes the entire Shark team an SK team, as we would have to had Town help to lynch Tigers. As soon as the numbers are even, the Tigers win unless Town lynch them.

[Trumpet of Doom]

From my perspective:

This was a very hard setup to judge the balance of. Comparing the scumteams to each other, in particular, was very much not apples-to-apples; I'd say apples to oranges, but I'm not sure that quite covers how different they were. I was willing to say the final draft of the setup was more or less balanced, but I definitely wanted to see if I was right.

As far as gameplay goes: I enjoy watching people think they know what's going on and be totally wrong, and this game was no exception. The comment about "no obligation to make sense until it's over" came in response to tigers proving wrong Vi's claim that crosskills couldn't happen. I think most of my other comments about people's play came in the dead QT, and as long as you can cross-reference the timestamps, you can figure them out from there.

Also, oh God, I just caught the "ferret" pun in the town role PMs last night. It hurts.

I take umbrage at how somehow I am the only person onsite who is more obvious when scum than Goofball.

Clearly you've never seen my scum play.
Then again, neither has anyone else, so you can be forgiven there.

[Amrun]

MBL, thanks for playing. Is "fancy" good or bad? I welcome talks of scumhunting.

The town did a good job of scumhunting GNR on Day 1, and for the most part abysmal after that. DGB primarily drove the Fate wagon.

There were two extremely interesting plays in this game: redFF claiming shark miller and being counterclaimed tiger miller by TOWN, and Vi claiming shark.

Watching those two plays unfold was really glorious, as well as watching sharkscum Fate and tigerscum DGB go after each other and both be right. That play was really critical; if DGB had lost that 1v1, I think sharks would have probably won as Fate never would have been forced to claim and would have had credit from pushing DGB.

David Xanatos, I disagree with you, though I appreciate your input. Four kills could have come from town, and you're neglecting the most important thing: sharks had TWO methods of finding tigers. The role cop, and failed kills. The sharks had the most information about the set-up from the start.

[callforjudgement]

And thus my attempts to meta DGB are yet again thwarted, because every time I've read a game with her in it for a significant length of time she's been scum.

[Iecerint]

Why would you vig me after backing my vote on Nocmen? You might as well self-vig...

I thought Nocmen was scummy, but not enough to pivot the wagon away from RedCoyote onto Nocmen. Also, your actual reasoning against Nocmen wasn't very strong, even if I agreed with it, and it seemed strange to me that you would pivot away from RedCoyote based on the evidence you presented. That's why I thought you were scum with RedCoyote. I shot you over RedCoyote because I thought a subsequent lynch on RedCoyote would be easy, but you would be harder to subsequently out-dayplay.

Funny fact: Nocmen-RedCoyote-Camn were literally 100% of my townmates. XD

I wish RedCoyote and Nocmen had done something other than lurk D5. It was hard to change my perception of them when their behavior seemed like they just hoped someone else would catch fire and be lynched. RedCoyote did pick it up slightly toward the end.

[Iecerint]

I thought the game was well-balanced.

[camn]

I too would have liked to see nocmen try and save himself. That would have helped... but tbh, DGB would have been a hard lynch for me save 3p lylo.