Mini 739 ~ Mafia Jailbreak, Game Over

[SpyreX]

Did I claim it was a pro-town move? Nope, simply null - I've spent all the energy on this day 1 I care to.

I've got my vote where I want it now. I'll make sure we dont NL, but aside from that - at this point I'm not arguing for my cases or against the ones I dont agree with anymore this game day.

So, I'll let todays lynch and tonights actions, hopefully, spur something aside from this same avenue.

Ohh, and how about this for a meta: In the majority of the games I've played, the people I've gotten into these "abrasive arguments" have been, in fact, scum. And, I'm willing to say every time I've been told any form of "learn to read" it has been from, in fact, scum.

HOWS THAT FOR META.

Peace out. I'm gone until Sunday.

[popsofctown]

@Pops: Get out of the peanut gallery and respond to the accusations on you. It looks like you’re trying to stay on the sidelines and that is not happening this late in the day.

The peanut gallery is fun tho
The accusations against me are ridiculous. The main cases i see against me are: posting fluff and reading RC using meta.
Posting fluff is my scumtell? boosha. That's redonkulous. i post some fluff because i feel like it, but i put lots of game related information out too. If i wanted to keep from revealing scumtells by active lurking, would i post fluff and game posts at the same time? No, i would post only fluff. No that's not WIFOM. Posting fluff and game posts together doesn't even accomplish the intended goal, it doesn't keep me from posting text that could reveal my alignment. Fluff would only be a tell if it was a substitute for real content. You can actually read fluff btw. I read some fluff in my newbie game, caught scum D1. I told everyone about it on D2, but they said it was farfetched and didn't believe me. True story. After it was all said and done we ate spirit cookies.
As for the meta-treatment of RC, also still don't get how that's a scumtell. Ok, actually i sort of get this one. I can see how it could appear that i'm cloaking my reasons for voting another player. But i didn't do that. I explained to you guys 15 times why i'm voting RC and why it's a scumtell in general. Players, in general, will talk about aspects unrelated to alignment excessively because they can. He's done that all over the thread with the SK discussion, becoming absorbed with being right on an irrelevant theory point instead of asking how the discussion reflects on Rhinox's alignment. Players do that guys. I'm just emphasizing for myself because i saw him do it when i played with him.

Two major things I want to point out in this statement:

1) pops is lining up his lynches, and blantantly so. He doesn't seem to notice that we've been having a discussion for the past couple of pages that it's a fallacy to put me and Rhinox in a "good guy-bad guy" scenario.

2) pops also gets the same impression I got in post 369 that bionic's defense of Rhinox is very meta-based. When I brought this up, bionic confirmed his vote on me.

That looks bad. I still don’t know what his stance on Rhino’s AtE is though. It looks like he regarded it as a scum tell in 370 but other times he doesn’t.
@Pops: What do you really think of Rhino's AtE?

1) If it looked like i was lining up lynches earlier, it was because i thought i had to vote Rhinox for policy and then wanted you dead. The discussion on the priniciples of lynching vanilla townies has led me to believe that i can actually lynch you in good conscience. And it's not fallacious for me to think that Rhinox's alignment might

in a non-absolute capacity

reflect upon your alignment.

2)Does that have to do with my alignment?
@pops) You can't really tell what i think on it because i don't know what i think on it. Usually when i've seen it flow so consistently in spades like this, the player has been town. When it comes in at times for obvious mind-screwing, it's been scum. What bugs me though is that i am emotionally sympathetic, and everytime i read a Rhinox post i think it affects me, so i'm concerned that i had clouded judgment. I think usually the safe-side to err on in such instances is to kill the person who's clouding up your judgment.. but since what judgment i have on that person is not scum, and that person seems not to be appealing to emotion maliciously in this case, i'm going to go with my own evaluation and say Rhinox falls townside.


@spyrex- i blew up at you earlier because i thought you were communicating that you were lynching people you didn't find scummy. This should at least be understandable because BC mentions having the same impression at one point. I don't really have any conflict with you anymore.

Insisting that you've done all you can now, and stating that you shall now seclude yourself from all conversation is bad. You didn't talk very much about any player besides me. If i didn't know any better i would be concerned that you were avoiding interaction with scumpartners. [/sarcasm tag][cuz i knoes rishi is gonna say "aha! he knows better!"]

I don't think you've spent much time defending any players at all today, though you seem to claim to. Defending town aligned players is equally important as attacking scum players. Not equally. Close enough though. Ignore the weight of the pulley and all friction forces.


Does anyone know where huntress went?

[Huntress]

Maybe I just have a narrow view right now, but all i'm getting out of our back and forth is you saying, "its stupid to assume there isn't an sk", followed by me saying "thats not what I'm assuming, but how does assuming there is one help us?", followed by you responding with "its stupid to assume there isn't an sk."

I think that's a fair summary.

Vote: RedCoyote

This is when her vote joined the wagon. Again, I read it and read it, but I'm not seeing how this = RC is scum.

But what did you read? Are you saying here that you think my case against RC is only this quote from Rhinox? What about the points I made? See post 191 for a summary.

I haven't seen anything, not ONE THING, in any of this posts even predending to show reasons why CFR or I are scummy.

Actually there was one thing, abouts Korts, but, as I implied in the bit you quoted, I haven't put much in writing yet.

In addition, any reference to pops being scum from huntress comes with the conditional pops AND RC are scum and RC is distancing from pops.

Why does this bother me? Well, when RC is lynched and comes up town...well, guess that means pops is all good, rite?

That was a reference to RC rather than Pops and in that scenario I said that Pops could be scum or town. Nowhere have I said or implied that RC turning up town would in any way mean that Pops couldn't independently be scum.

It's interesting that you say "when RC is lynched and comes up town". What makes you so sure? Was that a slip?

Am I also tying myself to Rhinox by calling him scum? Am I also tying myself to bionic/Spy by calling them both town?

Possibly. But they didn't seem nervous about it like Pops did.

As for Huntress's claim about RC bussing pops, I wonder if equally well she thinks that pops is bussing RC at the same time?

It's possible.


Most of the points raised over the last few pages seem to be thoroughly thrashed out so I'm not going to comment on them now unless anyone has a particular question for me on any of them. I may well come back to them later when looking at individual players though.

I'm still fine with my vote on RC but SpyreX is rising up my list so I'll probably be taking a closer look at him next.

[popsofctown]

i like this cat

[Jahudo]

So, yea, I'm takin it quiet for the next few days. Lynch whomever, I'll check in and throw my vote if it looks like we're going to hit a NL.

He actually said this before Vi extended the deadline a second time, from Feb 22 to Feb 26. I wonder what effect the second deadline review had at the time of that post and what Spy thought immediately after seeing Vi give us four more days.

I've got my vote where I want it now. I'll make sure we dont NL, but aside from that - at this point I'm not arguing for my cases or against the ones I dont agree with anymore this game day.

So, I'll let todays lynch and tonights actions, hopefully, spur something aside from this same avenue.

Not arguing for your case? Are you resigning to the RC or Rhinox lynch at this point? Even with 6 days left?

[Vi]

Vote Count:

RedCoyote (L-2) ~ Huntress, bionicchop2, Rishi, iamausername, popsofctown

Rhinox (L-3) ~ Jahudo, RedCoyote, OhGodMyLife, CF Riot
popsofctown (L-5) ~ SpyreX, Moriarty147
OhGodMyLife (L-6) ~ Rhinox

Minimum (L-7)

[size=0]bionicchop2 - 0 | Huntress - 0 | iamausername - 1 - PROD1 6 | Jahudo - 0 | CF Riot - 1 | Moriarty147 - 0 | OhGodMyLife - 3 - PROD1 13 | popsofctown - 0 | RedCoyote - 0 | Rhinox - 1 | Rishi - 0 | SpyreX - 0 PROD1 5[/size]

Final Deadline Review: Sunday, Feb 22 2009
Current Deadline: Thursday, Feb 26 2009

-----

OhGodMyLife is up for a second prod... when I wake up. I'm nice like that. I'm also really tired like that.

In related news, I saw The Princess Bride for the first time a few hours ago. Apparently, up until today I was the only person on this site that hadn't

[popsofctown]

*rolls stone in front of cave out of the way*

You just now saw Princess Bride for the first time! Oh my gosh LOL!

*rolls stone back*

[Moriarty147]

In related news, I saw The Princess Bride for the first time a few hours ago. Apparently, up until today I was the only person on this site that hadn't

Inconcievable.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ~Vi

[Huntress]

Not the only person. I still haven't seen it. I'll probably get round to it someday.

[Rhinox]

I haven't seen it either

[popsofctown]

Inconceivable

Go away or I'll call the Brute Squad. ~Vi

[Vi]

Vote Count:

(unchanged)

RedCoyote (L-2) ~ Huntress, bionicchop2, Rishi, iamausername, popsofctown

Rhinox (L-3) ~ Jahudo, RedCoyote, OhGodMyLife, CF Riot
popsofctown (L-5) ~ SpyreX, Moriarty147
OhGodMyLife (L-6) ~ Rhinox

Minimum (L-7)

[size=0]bionicchop2 - 1 | Huntress - 0 | iamausername - 2 - PROD1 7 | Jahudo - 1 | CF Riot - 2 | Moriarty147 - 0 | OhGodMyLife - 4 - PROD1 14 PROD2 0 | popsofctown - 0 | RedCoyote - 1 | Rhinox - 0 | Rishi - 1 | SpyreX - 1 PROD1 6[/size]

Final Deadline Review: Sunday, Feb 22 2009
Current Deadline: Thursday, Feb 26 2009

-----

OGML gets a one-day reprieve on his prod because... uh... I kinda just sent it a few hours ago.

That said, it doesn't look like you're getting that final extension.

[popsofctown]

wow, he does have high activity standards.

unless princess bride discussion is counting for us

[OhGodMyLife]

Posting to say i've been prodded and literally have time for nothing but this oneliner and my most pressing mod duties sorry everyone

[CF Riot]

I tried writing a post Thursday night but the library computers crashed twice in a row so I gave up.

First, Pops, I totally get the reason you gave for voting RC. What I don't get is, if you have 1 admittedly broken thermometer and 1 you're not sure of, why are you checking his temperature already? Moriarty already mentioned it, but you're ignoring the fact that every other player in the game may not be as handicapped as you, and you're ignoring the possibility of other suspects. The K7 analogy is off too, because out of the 3 times I've played with him, we haven't lynched him yet and he's been town every time. It seems like if you know you have a hard time reading someone, you would want to wait longer to try and pull more tells. You resigning to lynching him D1 seems to me like you're more worried about having a good reason out there for us to read than you are about actually determining his alignment.

@IAUN: I get your logic on vanilla claims D1. It makes sense, but that's also not what Pops said. Look as his post right after yours, and that's why Pops bothers me. He has a town read on Rhinox and a scum read on RC, but he thinks his policy is enough to make his vote shift from scum to non-scum. A vanilla claim does not sway you that much.
----
Although I did have a town read, and I think I still do, RC's last post is starting to get a little out there. Rhinox's claim seems really early now when we've gotten our last few extensions, but given the situation at the time and if you consider the possibility that he's telling the truth, a vanilla claim when it happened actually makes sense. I also think you're really stretching now in calling what BC did "entrapment". I see your side, and I actually agree that assuming BC had a town-meta on Rhinox was a reasonable assumption to make, but to say he intentionally tried to coerce you into making that statement when he was already voting you (and didn't need a reason to join the wagon) is really jumping to unlikely conclusions.

That said, RC is completely right about Rhinox's defense of "I didn't hammer." To argue that this is a town-tell is beyond weak. Aside from the fact that a premature hammer is begging for attention, I had just replaced in and took RC off of L-1 so the tides were definitely shifting at the time.
----
BC what do you think of my opinions of Rhinox in 269? What do you think about his constant dancing around words and rewording his statements after the fact? Do you think what I've cited (in that post and further posts) as rolefishing by Rhinox has merit? Do you think Rhinox's actions have in fact helped push the RC wagon?
----
Huntress what is your opinion of Rhinox? Do you think the case on him is valid? If you were the only one suspicious of RC today, who would you be voting for?

[Rishi]

MOD: Request that the deadline is lifted to give Huntress and Rhinox a chance to see The Princess Bride? Thx.

What with all the notPosting going on, they could probably watch it now and not miss much action here. ~Vi

In other news, as we're getting closer to a lynch, those of you with votes not on one of the main wagons are really not helping us avoid a No Lynch. Just saying.

[popsofctown]

@CFRiot - I hope you realize that "the three times we didn't policy lynch K7 he was town" is very anecdotal. Besides that, you have perhaps a good argument why i should have played RC slower. I could have taken more time reading him, based on meta. At this point, though, he's amounted on the meta evidence since my initial vote, and we're deadlined, so i'm certainly not unvoting. If you guys really really think my actions towards RC look like voting and making up the reason later, all i suppose i can say is that i hope my D2 actions, should they come, are better.

@vanilla cliam stuff - I wasn't sure how much a vanilla claim should weigh. When i first asked for feedback, no one responded, then i got feedback later that i was weighing it to heavily, and it made sense so i changed my vote over to RC.

[Jahudo]

@vanilla cliam stuff - I wasn't sure how much a vanilla claim should weigh. When i first asked for feedback, no one responded, then i got feedback later that i was weighing it to heavily, and it made sense so i changed my vote over to RC.

Well there are typically a few vanilla townies in a game and I don't think this game should be any different. So if you believed Rhinox was town before his claim, wouldn't you think he was town after he gave a legitimate town claim? It sounds like you would vote him only because you don't want to kill a town PR or out another vanilla to get scum closer to a real PR.

[popsofctown]

yes, it was a concept for protecting PRs. And at the time, i thought he was even money, not town.

[SpyreX]

That was a reference to RC rather than Pops and in that scenario I said that Pops could be scum or town. Nowhere have I said or implied that RC turning up town would in any way mean that Pops couldn't independently be scum.

It's interesting that you say "when RC is lynched and comes up town". What makes you so sure? Was that a slip?

Yes, it was a slip. Caught me!

Or, perhaps considering I've been very sure about both Rhinox and RC ending up town it was implied that I believe when he IS lynched today he will, in fact, come up town.

Not arguing for your case? Are you resigning to the RC or Rhinox lynch at this point? Even with 6 days left?

Yep, thats pretty much it (I didn't realize the deadline was extended nor do I really expect it to have ANY effect on today).

Looking at it from a realists perspective: barring some kind of cataclysmic explosion it is going to be RC or Rhinox today. I tried, due to the fact I think both wagons aren't solid, to shift that. After getting met with a wall of meta and, really, no traction it wasn't worth fighting that battle any more at this juncture. So, I'll pick it up tomorrow game-day (ohh no that must be a slip meaning that I know I will not die tonight OMG scum).

[Vi]

Let me go ahead and get this out of the way now. I really do need to start working on my homework.

Vote Count:

(unchanged)

RedCoyote (L-2) ~ Huntress, bionicchop2, Rishi, iamausername, popsofctown

Rhinox (L-3) ~ Jahudo, RedCoyote, OhGodMyLife, CF Riot
popsofctown (L-5) ~ SpyreX, Moriarty147
OhGodMyLife (L-6) ~ Rhinox

Minimum (L-7)

[size=0]bionicchop2 - 2 | Huntress - 1 | iamausername - 3 - PROD1 8 | Jahudo - 0 | CF Riot - 0 | Moriarty147 - 1 | OhGodMyLife - 0 - PROD1 15 PROD2 1 | popsofctown - 0 | RedCoyote - 2 | Rhinox - 1 | Rishi - 0 | SpyreX - 0 PROD1 7[/size]

Final Deadline Review: Sunday, Feb 22 2009

--FAILED--
Final Deadline: Thursday, Feb 26 2009 (4 days)

-----

Prodding iamausername for the second time today.
Everyone else can consider this deadline a prod of sorts. Get on with it.

[RedCoyote]

The main cases i see against me are: posting fluff and reading RC using meta.

Just being oblivious to this game in general is, I think, a very fair attack against you pops.

If i wanted to keep from revealing scumtells by active lurking, would i post fluff and game posts at the same time? No, i would post only fluff. No that's not WIFOM.

Why isn't it WIFOM?

2)Does that have to do with my alignment?

If Jahudo doesn't need anymore than this, I do.

Does it give you any different opinion of bionic? Do you see his criticism of me and not you as hypocritical, given that we've essentially came to the same positions on bionic's defense of Rhinox?

Defending town aligned players is equally important as attacking scum players. Not equally. Close enough though.

I agree with this. pops, which town aligned players are you concerned about defending today?

yes, it was a concept for protecting PRs. And at the time, i thought he was even money, not town.

Then it's your opinion that he is scum and I am town at the moment? I understand your first vote of Rhinox, I understand your switch to me, and I understand your switch back to Rhinox, but I don't understand your switch back to me this latest time. Did I do something recently that struck you the wrong way, or are you just resigned to the fact that I am a better lynch than Rhinox? I'd like this answer as soon as possible.

[Rhinox]

That said, RC is completely right about Rhinox's defense of "I didn't hammer." To argue that this is a town-tell is beyond weak. Aside from the fact that a premature hammer is begging for attention, I had just replaced in and took RC off of L-1 so the tides were definitely shifting at the time.

I never said that was a town tell. I was just pointing out a fallacy in RC's comments. RC has made comments that makes me think he's OK with anyone being lynched besides himself, because he's the only one he knows is town. By that logic, I should be arguing for RC's lynch, because he's probably the only one I could hope to be lynched today besides myself.

That being said, I've become increasing more uncomfortable with RC after his last few posts. I'm still not sure if he's scum, but if a vote is needed at deadline, I'd be willing to vote him to prevent a no-lynch.

[iamausername]

Prod received, real post soon.

[bionicchop2]

I will catch up today. I am making a formal request for RC to claim in his next post. Any claim made close to deadline won't leave any time for reasonable consideration if he claims anything other than vanilla.