Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[Regfan]

There's no such thing as

too scummy to be town

since scumminess does not have an absolute value.

What you're effectively saying is this:
There's 10 balls in a hat, 3 of them are yellow. Everyone picks out a ball.
If there's lots of people holding bright colours, I'm less likely to hold a bright colour.

Cut: Think you understand but I'll keep this just incase you don't.

[vollkan]

No, it's not. If four other people act too scummy to be town, then my chance of being mafia lowers significantly.

It seems this debate is at cross-purposes.

Obviously, your alignment is fixed from the beginning of the game (and I don't think you are arguing otherwise).

What I understand you to be saying is that what people

consider

your likely alignment to be necessarily varies based on how scummy other people have been. If so, then I agree. If not, what are you saying?

[bgg1996]

There's no such thing as

too scummy to be town

since scumminess does not have an absolute value.

I'll make sure to NK you for that statement.

[bgg1996]

From the people I want to lynch most, to the people I want to lynch least:
Andrew94, curiouskarmadog, Truant, Yura-chi, Regfan, Subgenius, maxous, vollkan, Surprise_Carcinogen, bgg1996

[Maxous]

There's no such thing as

too scummy to be town

since scumminess does not have an absolute value.

I'll make sure to NK you for that statement.

Putting aside why you would decide to kill Regfan when he's in the middle of your list...

did you shoot last night?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

This is stupid. Just. All of this is completely pointless, and I don't know which one of you four I should hate for continuing it.


Also, Max. Bad question. Bgg was crucified earlier for that EXACT question.

[vollkan]

From the people I want to lynch most, to the people I want to lynch least:
Andrew94, curiouskarmadog, Truant, Yura-chi, Regfan, Subgenius, maxous,

vollkan

, Surprise_Carcinogen, bgg1996

I'm leaning towards Andrew. Other than that, I suppose that

vollkan

just told a fib, Yura-chi is being completely unhelpful, and... Not very much else.

So I go from being #2 or 3 of your suspicions to third-last in the space of a page where my only interim posts were the following?

vollkan just told a fib

What?

@Vollkan, 1. What if everybody in the town was "robbing banks"?
2. I still should've pointed it out, since you're saying that it can be a scumtell.

1. It would still be wrong. In the context of mafia, if everybody was tunneling, it would still be scummy but, assuming everybody did it equally badly, it would increase everybody's rankings equally and so it wouldn't actually change people's relative positions
2. The point is that it shouldn't have been an option to begin with.

No, it's not. If four other people act too scummy to be town, then my chance of being mafia lowers significantly.

It seems this debate is at cross-purposes.

Obviously, your alignment is fixed from the beginning of the game (and I don't think you are arguing otherwise).

What I understand you to be saying is that what people

consider

your likely alignment to be necessarily varies based on how scummy other people have been. If so, then I agree. If not, what are you saying?

[bgg1996]

Don't worry, you are still in the top four/five of my scumminess chart. But your big posts are too helpful to risk. I don't want to lose you D1, until I'm a bit more sure that you are scum.

[vollkan]

Don't worry, you are still in the top four/five of my scumminess chart. But your big posts are too helpful to risk. I don't want to lose you D1, until I'm a bit more sure that you are scum.

bgg+5

Where to begin?

1) For starters, it's D2 - not D1.
2) It's already been established that this is a game where we potentially have only one ML left - so the notion that you would keep a major suspect alive is absurd. Beyond that, it suggests that you aren't really concerned at all about the consequences of keeping a major suspect alive.
3) In the first post I quoted before, I was 2/3, then I became third-last (and, I note, that you were the last suspect, so among the people you actually can suspect, I was second-last), and now I am 4/5. So, you still haven't explained the variation in your opinion of me.
4) If you are town, then the last thing you should want is vollkan-scum being able to make influential posts - so I can't see any sense in which you would both suspect me and yet also find my posts helpful

[bgg1996]

Sorry, I'm a bit tired, and the real D1 was really short.
Why do you consider this a scum-tell?
And shouldn't you be voting for me by now?

[vollkan]

Why do you consider this a scum-tell?

Because it demonstrates a significant inconsistency in your suspicions, which inherently makes it more likely that your suspicions are not genuine.

And shouldn't you be voting for me by now?

Checking scores:

Player	Score
Andrew94	50
Regfan	55
Surprise_Carcinogen	55
Maxous	50
Truant	55
curiouskarmadog	50
bgg1996	79
subgenius	50
yura-chi	77

Yeah, you've hit the lead.

Unvote, Vote: bgg1996

[yura-chi]

@bgg did u want voll to vote for u??? or where u just curious...? cuz for some reason i find it weird for you to mention that...

[subgenius]

Is anybody else willing to put some more votes on bgg in the hopes that he'll start talking sense? I'm tired of him spewing completely worthless arguments, and I don't think anything is going to change his ways other than some actual heat put on him. Bgg, if you're town, you need to start making yourself an asset pronto. You are very near the point of no return with me.

I'll make sure to NK you for that statement.

Please explain why this doesn't mean what I (and apparently maxous) think it means.

Honestly, I just checked whether or not Jesters are allowed in normals, because bgg is completely off the wall here. BTW, they're not.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

I'm not sure I like the phrase "point of no return" From Sub. It sounds too much like you're either a) intending to lynch him for being useless, town or no(this is a mistake) or b) intending to keep him even if you think he's scum just for being useful.

[yura-chi]

well i don't mean to bandwagon but i think sub is making sense bgg is getting into useless arguements (tho i don't really think i have any say in this, since everyone also thinks i'm useless and dumb) and i wanna see how he wud react if he face some heat

[yura-chi]

VOTE: BGG

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Two things. First, you have now gone back to 100% bandwagon participation, and second, just because you say "hey, don't mean to do x..." doesn't mean you aren't doing X

That said, he is reading extraordinarily scummy. I just wanted to make clear that I was aware. Votecount?

[yura-chi]

i just thought that it was a good idea and i dont have any so im going with it to see if bgg is scum based on what will happen here...

[vollkan]

well i don't mean to bandwagon but i think sub is making sense bgg is getting into useless arguements (tho i don't really think i have any say in this, since everyone also thinks i'm useless and dumb) and i wanna see how he wud react if he face some heat

At the risk of this becoming a bgg-yurachi see-saw,

Yura+5

Unvote, Vote: Yura

1) Once again, Yura jumps on a bandwagon for crappy reasons.
2) Hypocrisy (Ironically, this is a perfect demonstration of what I was arguing earlier about tu quoque. Whilst Yura is completely correct about bgg's useless arguments, it is hypocritical and thus scummy for yura to vote bgg on that basis - even though the reason why yura is voting bgg is actually valid)
3) Explicitly voting to add pressure
4) The fact that Yura has not been involved with any of the extensive prior debate on bgg, but suddenly decides to vote for bgg (for weak, short reasons) as soon as subg invites a wagon

[subgenius]

I'm not sure I like the phrase "point of no return" From Sub. It sounds too much like you're either a) intending to lynch him for being useless, town or no(this is a mistake) or b) intending to keep him even if you think he's scum just for being useful.

Believe it or not, I've tried to stay open minded about bgg. He is my top suspect, but I'm willing to change my reads. He has not improved at all since my original suspicions. If anything, he has gotten worse. If he had shown any interest in scum hunting or analyzing cases in anything except the most hairsplittingly semantic terms, I might have moved my attention elsewhere, but with very few exceptions, he hasn't. The longer he does this, the less I can believe he is a town player who is simply off his game.

At this point, it's reaching the point where the only explanation in my mind is that he's acting so scummy in the belief that nobody would actually believe scum to be so blatant. There is no town motivation in his posts. Most of the time when you see anti-town behavior, you can at least see how the anti-town player is really trying to help, but that is utterly absent in bgg's posts. He is being worse than useless, and not in a way that bad town players are useless. I get the distinct sense that he is being intentionally counterproductive, and there is absolutely no reason for town to purposely be so bad.

At the risk of this becoming a bgg-yurachi see-saw, Yura+5

Come on man, lets make bgg squirm a bit. I'm sick of his crap. Don't be a slave to your score sheet! Lets get some votes here. We don't have more than two votes on anybody, and that's part of the reason we aren't getting anywhere. Lets do this thing.

Who else wants in?

If we aren't going to bandwagon bgg, we need to get on someone else. Keeping a bunch of people at L-5 and L-4 isn't working.

[yura-chi]

@voll uhmm sorry but i'm not really getting it call me dumb but i still dont get what ur sayin here:

2) Hypocrisy (Ironically, this is a perfect demonstration of what I was arguing earlier about tu quoque. Whilst Yura is completely correct about bgg's useless arguments, it is hypocritical and thus scummy for yura to vote bgg on that basis - even though the reason why yura is voting bgg is actually valid)

[subgenius]

2) Hypocrisy (Ironically, this is a perfect demonstration of what I was arguing earlier about tu quoque. Whilst Yura is completely correct about bgg's useless arguments, it is hypocritical and thus scummy for yura to vote bgg on that basis - even though the reason why yura is voting bgg is actually valid)

I've found your scum tells to be pretty solid up to this point, but I don't agree that hypocrisy is a scum tell. If making crappy arguments is a scumtell when bgg does it, then it's also a scum tell when yura does it, but it's not scummy for either of them to say the other is scummy for making poor arguments. If one of them wants to build a case against the other why should he be forced to make his case weaker by omitting the mention of poor arguments?

[vollkan]

@voll uhmm sorry but i'm not really getting it call me dumb but i still dont get what ur sayin here:

2) Hypocrisy (Ironically, this is a perfect demonstration of what I was arguing earlier about tu quoque. Whilst Yura is completely correct about bgg's useless arguments, it is hypocritical and thus scummy for yura to vote bgg on that basis - even though the reason why yura is voting bgg is actually valid)

It's hypocritical for you to admit that you are useless, but then treat uselessness as a scumtell in others (see below). The stuff in brackets is about an earlier discussion and isn't relevant to you.

I've found your scum tells to be pretty solid up to this point, but I don't agree that hypocrisy is a scum tell. If making crappy arguments is a scumtell when bgg does it, then it's also a scum tell when yura does it, but it's not scummy for either of them to say the other is scummy for making poor arguments. If one of them wants to build a case against the other why should he be forced to make his case weaker by omitting the mention of poor arguments?

I assume you mean "omitting the mention of good arguments"?

Anyway, I get what you are saying, but I completely disagree.

If Player X accuses Player Y of being scum, for doing

A

, then that implies that Player X thinks that

A

is something which is so unlikely to come from a townie that it should be treated as making a person more likely to be scum.

Given that, if Player X is himself guilty of

A

, then one of two things can be the case:
a) Player X does not genuinely believe

A

to be a scumtell. Obviously, this means that Player X is scum.
b) Player X does genuinely believe

A

to be a scumtell.

b) is, on first glance, consistent with Player X being either town or scum. However, if Player X is town, this simply doesn't make sense - because Player X has a firsthand understanding of how it is that a townie could do

A

.

As with any scumtell, it's weaker in the case of a newbie like Yura, to be sure, but the underlying point remains intact: that the player is either lying or not actually making a genuine effort to scumhunt.

[andrew94]

i have a chemistry practical so v/la for 21 hours

[havingfitz]

VC bump