Open 169 - [Alternating 9P] OVER


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Post Post #475 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:12 pm

Post by RayFrost »

Para:

To be frank
oh, can't say that... DO will find me scummy for it

I wanted your answer because I don't follow your logic on how you can, in hindsight, say it was
obvious
that he was the doc. It was reaching pretty far, imo, so I felt it was worth mentioning and pressuring you about. Your defense of me is appreciated, though I'm not completely sure about the why of you doing it. I'm keeping my vote on until you explain it, btw :P

DO:

If you have a hypothetical LoS with
nobody
on the scum end, with one neutral and one leaning town with the rest all town reads and you were told to say the top two you would want lynched and why, would you pick the neutral and leaning town or would you jump to the town reads and toss them in?

If you'd toss the town reads in, then by all means explain how that works out, logically.

Lynx:

how does a self-deprecating attitude give off a town read? O.o I'd like it if you explained that to me, since I'm not following you there.
don't you feel silly now?
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Post Post #476 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:24 pm

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

RayFrost wrote:how does a self-deprecating attitude give off a town read? O.o I'd like it if you explained that to me, since I'm not following you there.
It's just from experience with newer players that put their hunting down. I've only seen one person actually use it as a tactic as scum(It only works once). I've just seen it much more expressed from town.
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Post Post #477 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:42 pm

Post by RayFrost »

oh, so it's an experience thing?

and btw...

Some games I was in have finished (or I've died) if you want some meta on me :)
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Post Post #478 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:56 pm

Post by Paradoxombie »

dank wrote:He wants empking lynched if we don't lynch you. That's putting his policy lynch case above four other players. Though its not his first choice, its still the choice he's making. That doesn't bother you?
No, not really. It doesn't look great for him, but I supported Khamisa's lynch and Empking's now. And how can you criticize anyone when Empking is one of your suspects?
RayFrost wrote:Para:

I wanted your answer because I don't follow your logic on how you can, in hindsight, say it was
obvious
that he was the doc. It was reaching pretty far, imo, so I felt it was worth mentioning and pressuring you about. Your defense of me is appreciated, though I'm not completely sure about the why of you doing it. I'm keeping my vote on until you explain it, btw :P
I wouldn't say I'm defending you. Your reasons for me being your primary suspect are fairly weak and I think you've been sitting on them all day. I would be okay with your lynch.
"Beware of Zombie Entanglements."
-George Washington

So it goes.
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Post Post #479 (ISO) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:10 pm

Post by RayFrost »

does "fine" mean you'd push for it or just that you'd be willing to perform a hammer at deadline instead of a NL?

aaaand... I have suspicion of dank, but it's kinda edged due to the fact it's partial OMGUS, I think lynx and DO are town, and empking is a neutral read. the only reason I'm pushing you is I have
something
to bug you about. As it is, all I could do with emp is rehash the same old same old, and I have nothing solid on dank other than tunneling (null tell).
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Post Post #480 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:13 am

Post by dank »

Paradoxombie wrote:
dank wrote:He wants empking lynched if we don't lynch you. That's putting his policy lynch case above four other players. Though its not his first choice, its still the choice he's making. That doesn't bother you?
No, not really. It doesn't look great for him, but I supported Khamisa's lynch and Empking's now. And how can you criticize anyone when Empking is one of your suspects?
RayFrost wrote:Para:

I wanted your answer because I don't follow your logic on how you can, in hindsight, say it was
obvious
that he was the doc. It was reaching pretty far, imo, so I felt it was worth mentioning and pressuring you about. Your defense of me is appreciated, though I'm not completely sure about the why of you doing it. I'm keeping my vote on until you explain it, btw :P
I wouldn't say I'm defending you. Your reasons for me being your primary suspect are fairly weak and I think you've been sitting on them all day. I would be okay with your lynch.
It's not the fact that ray suspects emp that bothers me, but the fact that, despite there being valid reasoning, the only reasoning ray suggested for lynching emp was distraction.
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Post Post #481 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:24 am

Post by dank »

RayFrost wrote:does "fine" mean you'd push for it or just that you'd be willing to perform a hammer at deadline instead of a NL?

aaaand... I have suspicion of dank, but it's kinda edged due to the fact it's partial OMGUS, I think lynx and DO are town, and empking is a neutral read. the only reason I'm pushing you is I have
something
to bug you about. As it is, all I could do with emp is rehash the same old same old, and I have nothing solid on dank other than tunneling (null tell).
This is a horribly lame rundown. DO and Lynx are town. Empking (your second lynch choice) is neutral. Paradox is suspicious because of "something", and you're not even building a case/pushing him to figure out if those suspicions are worth it. I'm suspicious, but you can't even name a reason as to why?
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Post Post #482 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:38 am

Post by RayFrost »

dank wrote:
RayFrost wrote:does "fine" mean you'd push for it or just that you'd be willing to perform a hammer at deadline instead of a NL?

aaaand... I have suspicion of dank, but it's kinda edged due to the fact it's partial OMGUS, I think lynx and DO are town, and empking is a neutral read. the only reason I'm pushing you is I have
something
to bug you about. As it is, all I could do with emp is rehash the same old same old, and I have nothing solid on dank other than tunneling (null tell).
This is a horribly lame rundown. DO and Lynx are town. Empking (your second lynch choice) is neutral. Paradox is suspicious because of "something", and you're not even building a case/pushing him to figure out if those suspicions are worth it. I'm suspicious, but you can't even name a reason as to why?
well, if I was gonna put it bluntly on my suspicions for you...

you protect khamisa poorly, initially find me suspicious for weak reasoning and then continually applying pressure to me and ignoring all other possible subjects, even pointing out that a person is scummy yet still only focusing upon pressuring me. This hyperfocus is something I know can come from town as well as scum, making that null...

you pressure others for finding me even remotely town and maintain that I'm scummy even if they point out things they feel are not solid points, yet you maintain they are without really giving proof they are scummy things.

Your complete obstinance and refusal to consider
anything
other than me implies you are focusing upon me to give you an excuse to not pay attention to any of the other players except in relation to me.
don't you feel silly now?
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Post Post #483 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:45 am

Post by dank »

Alright, though that's a bit weak, and what about paradox?
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Post Post #484 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:51 am

Post by RayFrost »

I find the fact para has avoided responding with his logic/reasoning for what I've got my vote on him for to be scummier than the act that I voted him for. Although I find the fact he was pushing for DO over something as weak and arbitrary as hindsight stuff to be suspicious, the fact he didn't explain it afterward (as it made no sense) is scummier.
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Post Post #485 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:26 am

Post by Empking »

Lynx: Are you saying that a given player will point out the fact that they suck less often when they're scum? Why do you think that is?
Plus, if you guys want to make a point, skip the walls, because everyone else in the game does as well. - Magister Ludi
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Post Post #486 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:19 pm

Post by Haylen »

Can somebody ask me some direct questions? It helps me get back into games faster...Im feeling slightly better now, still a bit sick though.
Seriously. Read your role PM before playing.
I am sorry if you have to prod me, I have absolutely no concept of time.

My prefered pronoun set is "cie/cir/cirs[elf]" but they is more than acceptable.
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Post Post #487 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:57 pm

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

Empking wrote:Lynx: Are you saying that a given player will point out the fact that they suck less often when they're scum? Why do you think that is?
No I'm just saying more specifically with newer players. Usually when they highlight that they're not too good at scumhunting it comes largely from townies in my experience. It's a town tell to me. This isn't the only reason I've read him as town.
Haylen wrote:Can somebody ask me some direct questions? It helps me get back into games faster...Im feeling slightly better now, still a bit sick though.


Who are your top suspects?

Would you have been part of the Khamisa lynch Day 1? Why or why not?

Who do you find more scummy between Empking and Rayfrost?
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Post Post #488 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:59 pm

Post by Tenchi »


VOTE COUNT

(2) RayFrost - dank, Deuxieme Octopus
(2) Empking - Lynx The Antithesis, Paradoxombie
(1) Haylen - Empking
(1) Paradoxombie - RayFrost



Not Voting: Haylen

DEADLINE: October 17, 12:01 PM PST
Yes. That same Tenchi. :D

Reicheru and Tenchi begin to bond more, sending love letters to each other.
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Post Post #489 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:06 pm

Post by RayFrost »

Lynx The Antithesis wrote:
Empking wrote:Lynx: Are you saying that a given player will point out the fact that they suck less often when they're scum? Why do you think that is?
No I'm just saying more specifically with newer players. Usually when they highlight that they're not too good at scumhunting it comes largely from townies in my experience. It's a town tell to me. This isn't the only reason I've read him as town.
If it isn't the only reason, would you mind pointing out the other reasons that you have available for it?
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Post Post #490 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:44 pm

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

RayFrost wrote:
If it isn't the only reason, would you mind pointing out the other reasons that you have available for it?
I can't really explain. Mostly vibes. I probably could find some other posts that make me think this, but I'm far too lazy to search for them.
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Post Post #491 (ISO) » Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:58 am

Post by Empking »

Unvote: Haylen


Looks like she legitimately wants to post.

Vote: Para


It looks to me like Para is buddying to RF. (See: His continued defence of Ray Frost.)
Plus, if you guys want to make a point, skip the walls, because everyone else in the game does as well. - Magister Ludi
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Post Post #492 (ISO) » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:44 am

Post by dank »

Emp- 1. Haylen "legitimately wants to post", but still has yet to contribute anything to the whole game. She's said that she'll post before (even giving specific days) just like she did there multiple times, and has yet to deliver. Why, exactly, does her last post convince you of anything?

2. You're voting Para for defense of RayFrost. If you read the game, Para has Ray as his second suspect behind you, and has mentioned several scummy things Ray has done. Lynx has had a much more in depth defense of Ray, in which he both calls him town, and fails to give any specific reason as to why he thinks he's town (see post above yours, where he says "I can't really explain"). In other words, Lynx not only defends Ray more than paradox, sees Ray as more town than paradox does, but even fails to come up with adequate reasoning for why he thinks that. If you're voting for defense of Ray, why are you voting para and not lynx?

Ray's post 489:
If it isn't the only reason, would you mind pointing out the other reasons that you have available for it?
This is a town read for me. If scum is given a compliment that they look town despite pressure being on them, I cannot imagine where scum would actually want an elaboration on why they're town. Scum know they're guilty, and they'll take all the "town reads" they can for town points. They will not want to dwell on why, because they are guilty, and they do not want the spotlight on them. The fact that Ray actually chooses to dwell on whether reasons for his innocence make sense give him town points in my mind.

That said, while I see lynx's argument of a new player crossing up and trying to fix it, I'm not sure I want to let him off the hook. It could be a newbie issue, or it could be scum playing the newbie card (scum could easily say they're bad at scumhunting to get pressure off them). I'm ok with a Ray or Empking lynch, but I think I'll keep my vote on Ray in the meantime. I'm not fully sold on Ray being town, because I still say there's a good deal of evidence pointing in the other direction, but I can see the other side of the equation.

Empking is looking worse with every post.
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Post Post #493 (ISO) » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:55 am

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

These are exactly the reasons why empking is scummy, Dank. You're absolutely correct in your point regarding his choosing Paradox over me. Why would he do such a move? Some reasons I can imagine are that he does not want to appear that his vote is OMGUS. Perhaps he does not want to draw my attention further because I've been pressing him the most over the course of these last few pages. There is the possibility that he chose Paradox over myself because he already has one vote on him from Ray. He could have realized that it would be easier to attempt a Paradox wagon than one on myself. Or it could be that Empking is not reading the game closely whatsoever and failed to see that Paradox has stated that he would be for a Ray lynch. On the otherhand, I've said I would not be for one unless I see a huge scumtell on his part.

You're also right about the pressing me about the extra reasoning revolving around my assessment of him as town. Most players would just let it only boost their image for the town rather than scrutinize it further. It shows that he's skeptical of my alignment regardless of my read on him. Which is a strong indicator of town over scum. Scum know everyone's alignment already so they must pretend to be unaware of each other. Ray seems genuinely curious about my call.
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Post Post #494 (ISO) » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:21 am

Post by dank »

I've got an odd sort of feeling about lynx's last few posts.

He claims RayFrosts innocence with "vibes" that he can't explain as evidence. He gives me two large paragraphs commending my slight change of heart. I've got a weird feeling about it, its as if a RayFrost lynch has some sort of significance to him. I've played a few games with town lynx, and I cannot remember a case where he defends someone or makes an argument without even trying to get evidence, nor can I remember a case where he does something like the above post, which basically pats me on the back for coming to the right conclusion.

Thoughts from the rest of the town?
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Post Post #495 (ISO) » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:40 am

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

dank wrote:I've got an odd sort of feeling about lynx's last few posts.

He claims RayFrosts innocence with "vibes" that he can't explain as evidence. He gives me two large paragraphs commending my slight change of heart. I've got a weird feeling about it, its as if a RayFrost lynch has some sort of significance to him. I've played a few games with town lynx, and I cannot remember a case where he defends someone or makes an argument without even trying to get evidence, nor can I remember a case where he does something like the above post, which basically pats me on the back for coming to the right conclusion.

Thoughts from the rest of the town?
This is a strong misrepresentation of my thoughts, Dank. You can continue to say I haven't explained it. I've given the main reason why I think Ray is town in his attitude regarding his scumhunting. There were other minor things that go along with this, but I've stated that I didn't feel like sorting through Ray's posts to highlight a small point or two.

You can call it defending if you like, but the main reason I'm pressing this issue is to convey how Empking is a better candidate than Ray for the lynch today.
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Post Post #496 (ISO) » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:50 am

Post by dank »

It's not a misrepresentation if its a direct quote, where there's little context to misrepresent it. Your reasoning is weak, as scum could claim the noob card to get pressure off of them.
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Post Post #497 (ISO) » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:48 pm

Post by Deuxieme Octopus »

dank wrote:Thoughts from the rest of the town?
I'm a little uncertain here about how to interpret Lynx. I need a little more info.

Lynx, is Ray your number 2 suspect, or is your read on him pretty much a solid town??
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Post Post #498 (ISO) » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:57 pm

Post by RayFrost »

Empking wrote:
Unvote: Haylen


Looks like she legitimately wants to post.

Vote: Para


It looks to me like Para is buddying to RF. (See: His continued defence of Ray Frost.)
scummy post is obv.

Votes para to buddy with me, as far as I can tell, as well as giving minimal reasoning for the vote...

Dank:

I'm against the newbie card being played for or against
anybody
, so don't let that stop you from applying pressure to me, got it?

Lynx:

If I understand you correctly, you are saying the fact I don't trust you and don't take your "town reads" out of hand to be a town tell? If it is my general attitude toward scum hunting, I would like it if you explained what that meant, exactly.

Also, what was your reasoning for a town read on me
before[/i] the question as to your reasons? Obviously, you can't use my words to explain the reason you thought I was town before I said them.
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Post Post #499 (ISO) » Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:39 pm

Post by Deuxieme Octopus »

RayFrost wrote:If I understand you correctly, you are saying the fact I don't trust you and don't take your "town reads" out of hand to be a town tell? If it is my general attitude toward scum hunting, I would like it if you explained what that meant, exactly.
I'm not sure I like this post. Lynx was very clear about why he thought your skepticism gave him a town read, which makes this post seem a lot like very forced overkill. I don't know if this is necessarily a scummy post, but it seems to me like you're trying very hard to play the part that Lynx has concocted for you.

Do you actually not understand something about Lynx's comments or what? I think, however, that when Lynx responds to my post, all this will be cleared up.

The EmpKing post with the vote-switch is really scummy.
Empking wrote:
Unvote: Haylen


Looks like she legitimately wants to post.

Vote: Para


It looks to me like Para is buddying to RF. (See: His continued defence of Ray Frost.)
Dank pretty much sums up the many ways this post reeks right after:
Dank wrote: 1. Haylen "legitimately wants to post", but still has yet to contribute anything to the whole game. She's said that she'll post before (even giving specific days) just like she did there multiple times, and has yet to deliver. Why, exactly, does her last post convince you of anything?

2. You're voting Para for defense of RayFrost. If you read the game, Para has Ray as his second suspect behind you, and has mentioned several scummy things Ray has done. Lynx has had a much more in depth defense of Ray, in which he both calls him town, and fails to give any specific reason as to why he thinks he's town (see post above yours, where he says "I can't really explain"). In other words, Lynx not only defends Ray more than paradox, sees Ray as more town than paradox does, but even fails to come up with adequate reasoning for why he thinks that. If you're voting for defense of Ray, why are you voting para and not lynx?
Empking realizes his vote on Haylen has no potential of inspiring a policy lynch so he makes up a b/s reason to remove it. Then he puts the new vote on Paradox for buddying with RayFrost, and the only way you could possibly rationalize this is to mentally remove Lynx from the game entirely (not that I personally see Lynx as necessarily buddying up to Ray...yet) A lot of this just doesn't make sense.

I'm thinking about putting my vote on Empking instead of Ray, but here's the problem: right now, Ray will be lynched if all votes remained the same up until the deadline. If I unvote, Emp becomes the lynch, by default. The problem with unvoting then, is that even if I change my mind and go back to voting Ray after that, Emp remains the one to be lynched because of the rules of the deadline (unless of course someone else votes Ray.) This is why I really need something huge to move my vote from Ray, because, for all intents and purposes, after that, it's gone. This last post from Empking may be just scummy enough to do the trick, but I'm going to play it safe here - we've still got 3 days till the deadline. So now Emp...here's your chance to convince me.

@Empking
Where does RayFrost sit with you? What's your read on him?

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