Mini 833 - Empire at War(The game is over?)

[BloodCovenent]

@Reckoner - Huh? Not a random vote. Well, then you are DEFINITELY manufacturing a reason for a vote. There is absolutely nothing scummy in that sentence nor in anything else I have said. Either you have not bothered to read the context leading up to it or you are just trying to stir the pot, hopefully to spur discussion. Are you doing this to start real discussion? If not, it is a scum move and should be seen in that light. Whether you are trying to start discussion or not, I still have to point out you fail to say WHAT logic if faulty, much less why. Using pejorative terms like 'obviously faulty' without support is pure scum.

As for putting something in the form of a question, THAT is very townish. Trying to get someone to talk by asking them a question about THEIR action is definitely town! So, as a follow up, why are you trying to misrepresent townish actions as otherwise?

Don't like the bolded. Yes, I agree what you are doing with reck, but I don't like those sentences. It is basically you saying that you yourself are town. I don't like it when people try to say that they themselves are obv-town. Just doesn't sit well with me.

[BloodCovenent]

Well, that would be fine except since Sajin was scum in your last game, does that not make it much more likely he is not in this one?

That's not how probability works. I can't tell if this was a joke or not.

Really. Why? Because I am poking fun at Macavity or for some other reason? Just saying it bugs you is not enough.

This suggests that it was a joke.

As for putting something in the form of a question, THAT is very townish. Trying to get someone to talk by asking them a question about THEIR action is definitely town!

This suggests that it wasn't a joke.

So which is it?

Also, I have played with krer 3 times (this makes 4) and have been scum twice. He had me pegged as scum both times.

So?

1. mac, you're acting blind.
2. regarding bolded - Sajin is using the argument that you had against him, and using it for your benefit. Are you holding that against him?

[Kreriov]

@Blood - Actually, that out of game question is an example of a NOT townie question. It is a question designed to trap the person answering. Scum do not get an out just because they ask a lot of questions. Asking questions is good. Its what you do with them that is that is the real tell. It's sort of like the old classroom 'There are no stupid questions' axiom. Of course that is not absolutely true, but if you start off assuming that it is true, the burden of proof is then shifted to show why a question is stupid. In this game, the burden of proof should be to show why a question is scummy. Reckoner did not do that, he simply stated it. Again, could be a simple mistake. RestFermata taking Reckoner's argument on faith and not really investigating it is what I find much more opportunistic and therefor scummy.

[BloodCovenent]

Checking in on my iPod.

Re: Kre's statement I meant that using the logic of someone being scum in another game affecting their chances of being scum in this one is horrible logic. I thought that was obvious. I don't necessarily think it's a scumslip but it's a mighty dangerous train of thought to be following.

wait... so your initial post where you voted Kre, you were really agreeing with Kre? And now you are clarifying things, saying that Mac was using bad logic? I really don't like how this is unfolding.

[Kreriov]

@Blood - I do not think I am obv town. I think I have ACTED townie, but I do think that means anyone should assume I am town. I want people to follow my logic, not blindly follow me. I did something that should be considered pro town. Both scum and town and do commit pro town acts. The fact that a pro town act was trying to be cast as not is what I want to draw attention to.

[BloodCovenent]

Hey, sorry! I should have said V/LA in my games but I didn't know it was going to be so much trouble to move into the apartment this year. I'm here, though, and ready to get started.

I understand the logic behind Reckoner's accusation, but I don't believe that Kreriov was being serious.

I don't really like the "asking questions is townie" statement. Not all questions are townie. Imagine this early in a game, before any hint of a claim is suggested.

X: Y, are you the cop?
Y: I refuse to respond, and that is a scummy question.
X: Asking questions is townie.

I know this is kind of a strawman. I acknowledge that, and I am not suggesting that the situation is not comparable in the least, but my point is that whether or not a question is pro-town depends on the question. Taking a statement that might be construed scummy and then placing it in the form of a question doesn't make it any "townier." It does, in fact, take a bit of that air of certainty away from the poster, making him/her less responsible for the ideas presented in the question. In that way questions can be scummy.

Krer, your question, if you were serious about it, was scummy. I think you were joking, so I'm not going to vote you for that reason, but I do believe that your blanket statement that asking questions is townie is a tad scummy. It's kind of squirmy, if you will, trying to find weird ways to justify your past behavior. It's weak sauce, but for now, I believe you're the best place for my vote.

Zwet, this game only has two pages so far. Even if the posts are somewhat confusing, it can't be that hard to come to some sort of understanding or formulate an opinion based on what has happened so far. And if you can't, you can say that too.

Sorry again for being inactive so far. Again, I should be back on track now.

Vote: Kreriov

I like the bolded, that's about it. After realizing what Kre said in his initial question post, I have to agree that it was humorous, in mocking Mac's judgement/logic (and possibly confirmation bias?), it was a serious question that needed to be answered, and it was indeed a fruitful question.

[MacavityLock]

Also, I have played with krer 3 times (this makes 4) and have been scum twice. He had me pegged as scum both times.

So?

1. mac, you're acting blind.
2. regarding bolded - Sajin is using the argument that you had against him, and using it for your benefit. Are you holding that against him?

1) How am I acting blind? There was the distinction that Krer made that I had previously missed, but we already went through that. Anything else I'm missing?
2) I'm interested in his reasoning for saying that. I didn't see it as being particularly relevant to any of the discussion we were having, so I'd like to know why. Also, why did you answer for Sajin?

[BloodCovenent]

So basically, RestFerma has been V/LA, comes back and sees I am heavily involved in a discussion. He uses the wiki to pull out something called a straw man argument which he admits DOES NOT apply to this instance, but being so official looking and sounding probably seems to make his argument stronger, so he includes that red herring. He then proceeds to say that if my question had been a statement is would have been scummy, therefor the question is scummy even though he thinks it really was a joke, and votes. Sure sounds to me like he is voting just to vote for someone. He is deliberately taking my question out of context. He does not even quote me correctly. I DID NOT SAY asking questions is townie. I said IN GENERAL asking questions is townie, fully acknowledging that some questions are designed to make people look bad. By completely ignoring the fact that my question is direct logical progression from MacavityLock's vote and reason for that vote, he has shown he is simply scum interested in getting a townie lynched however he can.

I agree with this, RestF's post was very scummy, however I think Reck's was worse. You called out reck, and his response was very scummy.

Unvote:
Vote: xRECKONERx

[BloodCovenent]

@Blood - I do not think I am obv town. I think I have ACTED townie, but I do think that means anyone should assume I am town. I want people to follow my logic, not blindly follow me. I did something that should be considered pro town. Both scum and town and do commit pro town acts. The fact that a pro town act was trying to be cast as not is what I want to draw attention to.

But that's such a stupid move to do. You're painting a target on your back for scum. Yes, it's all WIFOM, but still.

[BloodCovenent]

Also, I have played with krer 3 times (this makes 4) and have been scum twice. He had me pegged as scum both times.

So?

1. mac, you're acting blind.
2. regarding bolded - Sajin is using the argument that you had against him, and using it for your benefit. Are you holding that against him?

1) How am I acting blind? There was the distinction that Krer made that I had previously missed, but we already went through that. Anything else I'm missing?
2) I'm interested in his reasoning for saying that. I didn't see it as being particularly relevant to any of the discussion we were having, so I'd like to know why. Also, why did you answer for Sajin?

1. You know that Kre's question had a purpose, but after a few more posts you pull the "oh, i didn't know I was supposed to answer it because it looks like a joke... what do I do? I'm so helpless act." Just answer the question, which... I don't think you have done yet...?
2.It was completely relevant. I hate it when people put the "why did you answer for player X?" argument, they are fruitless, and lead to nothing. Very rarely do scum partners answer for each other. This isn't a chainsaw defense, or CSD style post. And sometimes, other players can make a better defense for me, then I myself. And no, that doesn't make me a bad player. It's also hard for me to take one player's advice/defense when they have acted scummy, and are under heavy pressure.
3. Non-Random Role Claim : Miller - cops, adjust your radar.

[Sajin]

Also, I have played with krer 3 times (this makes 4) and have been scum twice. He had me pegged as scum both times.

So?

1. mac, you're acting blind.
2. regarding bolded - Sajin is using the argument that you had against him, and using it for your benefit. Are you holding that against him?

1) How am I acting blind? There was the distinction that Krer made that I had previously missed, but we already went through that. Anything else I'm missing?
2) I'm interested in his reasoning for saying that. I didn't see it as being particularly relevant to any of the discussion we were having, so I'd like to know why. Also, why did you answer for Sajin?

I posted it to see if you would conclude anything off of that information as well. (Kreriov has experience with Sajin-scum and is not voting Sajin therefore he is scum. Sajin is not voting Kreriov therefore they are buddying or something else along theses lines)

If its not relevant, then your reason for voting me is irrelevant using that exact same logic. If it is relevant then I would figure you would conclude based off that information. You can't use the same argument both ways here. Not that I support any of this line of thinking, but I was seeing if you were willing to use that whole line of thinking or just take parts of it to twist into what you needed for this game. Which is it?

@Blood Did you lose your ID badge?

[BloodCovenent]

@Blood Did you lose your ID badge?

I don't know how to answer this... I don't know if I ever had one?

[MacavityLock]

1. You know that Kre's question had a purpose, but after a few more posts you pull the "oh, i didn't know I was supposed to answer it because it looks like a joke... what do I do? I'm so helpless act." Just answer the question, which... I don't think you have done yet...?

He said quite outright that it was a joke, so I wasn't really all that worried about it. Still, I kind of already have answered it.

Well, that would be fine except since Sajin was scum in your last game, does that not make it much more likely he is not in this one?

That's not how probability works.

But if you want a more direct answer, that answer is no.

2.It was completely relevant. I hate it when people put the "why did you answer for player X?" argument, they are fruitless, and lead to nothing. Very rarely do scum partners answer for each other. This isn't a chainsaw defense, or CSD style post. And sometimes, other players can make a better defense for me, then I myself. And no, that doesn't make me a bad player. It's also hard for me to take one player's advice/defense when they have acted scummy, and are under heavy pressure.

In this post, you failed to demonstrate how Sajin's statement was relevant. Also, my point in asking why you answered for Sajin is that I wanted

Sajin

to answer for it, so as to maybe come to some sort of conclusion whether or not he was scummy or not. By answering for him, you've effectively removed some of the pressure. So, thanks, I appreciate that.

Also, who are you referring to with "one player's advice/defense when they have acted scummy, and are under heavy pressure"?

I posted it to see if you would conclude anything off of that information as well. (Kreriov has experience with Sajin-scum and is not voting Sajin therefore he is scum. Sajin is not voting Kreriov therefore they are buddying or something else along theses lines)

If its not relevant, then your reason for voting me is irrelevant using that exact same logic. If it is relevant then I would figure you would conclude based off that information. You can't use the same argument both ways here. Not that I support any of this line of thinking, but I was seeing if you were willing to use that whole line of thinking or just take parts of it to twist into what you needed for this game. Which is it?

My vote for you was a page 1 joke random vote, and I thought an obvious one at that. In no way was that line of thinking going to continue much longer. By the time you had made your "played with Krer a bunch" point, Krer had done his very best to get us out of the RVs. How is your point re: Krer particularly related to my "Sajin was scum last game" point? How is it the "exact same logic"?

[BloodCovenent]

Also, who are you referring to with "one player's advice/defense when they have acted scummy, and are under heavy pressure"?

No one in particular. Just one thing that I have noticed through games.

[Kdub]

3. Non-Random Role Claim : Miller - cops, adjust your radar.

What made you claim at this particular time? This seems completely out of the blue.

[BloodCovenent]

3. Non-Random Role Claim : Miller - cops, adjust your radar.

What made you claim at this particular time? This seems completely out of the blue.

Claim day one, or don't claim at all.

[BloodCovenent]

3. Non-Random Role Claim : Miller - cops, adjust your radar.

What made you claim at this particular time? This seems completely out of the blue.

Oh, I see what you mean. I thought this was appropriote because I was unsure if I should claim during RVS, and I finally made up my mind here.

[Kreriov]

@Blood - That is the conventional wisdom. Can you answer Sajin's question? Oh, and to reply to your earlier observation. I do not mind putting a target on my back. I find that I am much better able to discern scummy actions directed at me and since I feel I am fairly good at defending myself, it seems to work. Besides, the point of the game it to have fun. Can't have fun if you don't participate.

[BloodCovenent]

@Blood - That is the conventional wisdom. Can you answer Sajin's question? Oh, and to reply to your earlier observation. I do not mind putting a target on my back. I find that I am much better able to discern scummy actions directed at me and since I feel I am fairly good at defending myself, it seems to work. Besides, the point of the game it to have fun. Can't have fun if you don't participate.

This?

[RestFermata]

My point with the strawman was that posing something in the form of a question doesn't make it any more townie. I don't think your question was pro-town. If it was a joke, then it was a joke, and posing it as a question does not make it any more townie or more "fruitful".

How is my vote opportunistic? That's a word that's easy to throw around, but often doesn't mean anything. In this case, I don't think it means anything. We're early in the game, I found something I consider worthy of an early-game vote (much more worthy a reason than the "reason" behind zwet's oddly timed random vote) and I acted on it.

If you read one of my other games, and I can't remember which but if you really think it's important I'll try and dig it out, you'll find another time I admit to "strawmanning", although to be honest, I don't think that I was really "strawmanning" in either case, and definitely not in this case, even though I called it that because I was sure someone else would characterize it thusly. Strawmanning is when someone deliberately misrepresents another's argument in order to make it more easy to beat down. I was simply pointing out a flaw/exception in your blanket statement that questions are townie, and although it is an extreme and somewhat ridiculous example, it still exposes your statement as being too broad.

The fact that I was V/LA means nothing. I was unannounced V/LA in my other game, too. Sorry, it's not cool, I know, but it isn't scummy, and throwing that in there is a little silly.

I still think Krer is the best place for my vote for now, although BC has a point about Macavity's indecisive doormat attitude. Although BC himself has been a little off, especially since he's participated in the entire conversation misunderstanding what Kreriov said:

[quote=BC]"wait... what? Basically all that Kre said was the likely hood of Sajin being scum, is still the same as if sajin were not in the last game. FoS:Reck"[/quote]

Joking or not, Kreriov implied that Sajin is more likely to be town since he was scum last game. Not what BC said it was. When pushed, BC also admits he thinks my post was "very scummy" although he actually likes parts of it. Sounds kind of wishy-washy to me.

In light of BC's claim, though, I feel I have to reevaluate the situation. I have heard that scum do not often claim miller, although this seems counterintuitive because since miller claims are more likely to be town, why wouldn't scum claim miller? I haven't done any research myself, but I'll have to think about it before I make any rash decisions about BC.

By the way, I'm a female. My name's hard to spell if you're not a musician, so I won't get on you about that, but you should get the gender right, at least.

[Kreriov]

Oh, yeah. Thank you. Not sure how I missed it.

[MacavityLock]

although BC has a point about Macavity's indecisive doormat attitude.

Did you read my post 62? Where have I been indecisive or doormat-ing?

[Kreriov]

@RestFermata - Sorry ma'am. Oh, and by the way, you are wrong. Posting something as question in order to get responses is indeed much more 'fruitful'. Sure, I could have just as easily made a bald statement that McavityLock failed his math role because prior random events have no affect on the next random event or some such, but how much discussion does that generate? Someone may or may not dispute a statement. A question, however, generally demands a response. But see, we now have you and Reckoner trying to imply I am scummy by asking it. At first, the implication was asking a question was scummy. Now your story is the question was scummy somehow. Really? How? Anyone who doubts this, go back and look. It is a natural question stemming from the ongoing conversation that happens to have some humor injected into it. How is this scummy? Oh right, IT IS NOT. Trying to make it seem otherwise, however, is indeed scummy! Guess what, that is exactly what you continue to do! Do you want me to just hand you a shovel?

[dothefandango]

Oi, sorry again for missing the start of this amazing mafia game. I'm used to a PM telling me that hte game is ready to play. You guys can feel free to call me DTF.

Give me a few to read up on what happened.

[Kreriov]

@RestFermata - Oh, and once again I have to correct you. I did not say questions are townie. I said IN GENERAL, questions are pro-town. Do I need to lecture you on this again? i will continue to do so as long as you keep lying and misrepresenting things.