Mafia 84 - Crime in Cressario [GAME OVER]

[Lindisfarne]

Why won't we lynch armlx?

This unsettled me a bit. I don't disagree with your second question, arm should not be fully cleared as a townie from his claim, and I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling cautious over it, however I dislike the wording you used.

i'm going to have to agree with roflcopter here. Falcone always seems to try his best to get other people lynched, especially with his last comment where he is suggesting we lynch armix who claimed his PGOness.

Perhaps Falcone is trying to get us to do away with the PGO so he doesn't have to sacrifice a scum in order to kill him.

This also means that if he truly is scum then armix was most likely telling the truth.

Falcone has made three posts this game, The first being a simple hello and a seemingly random vote. Please tell me how this qualifies him as "

Always

tries his best to get other people lynched"?

Coming up with such baseless conjecture at this point by claiming:

Perhaps Falcone is trying to get us to do away with the PGO so he doesn't have to sacrifice a scum in order to kill him.

Is weak accusation, in it's simplest form. Conversely, I can take your quick notions to jump on falcone, by setting you up seem like trigger happy and inexperienced mafia, eager to get a wagon rolling.

Stating your interpretations and readings on posts is a good thing. Throwing around weak arguments and conjectures on the second page is not.

If you had a bit more to back up your train of thought, then I would have no problem with this, but at this point, I would personally caution against warping simple questions into scum scenarios. This can inadvertently make you come off as scum, when you are not.

[armlx]

If you had a bit more to back up your train of thought, then I would have no problem with this, but at this point, I would personally caution against warping simple questions into scum scenarios. This can inadvertently make you come off as scum, when you are not.

I'm interested what makes you say the last sentence.

[Lindisfarne]

Simple: If a person is town, throwing around accusations and scenarios with no merit or few facts to support will make you seem scummy. Do you disagree with that?

[Matt_S]

I don't see anything wrong with a PGO claiming. People are treating this like a bigger deal than it is. I don't know if people are just overreacting or if they are scummy, and I don't like that. But now I have a question for armlx:

Why didn't you wait until later in the day to claim?

[Lowell]

I agree that if Armix is telling the truth then he should've definately claimed. Not confirmed innocent though.

This is pretty much the jist of it.

Does anyone here disagree with Emp's post?

I do I do!

So, to be clear, you're saying we should "accept" armlx's claim in such a way that we neither think he is or isn't necessarily scum.

Does no one see why this doesn't work? The claim IS the issue. I can't reasonably say "well, his claim seems legit, but he's behaving scummy, so I'll vote for him anyway." Nor can I say "wow, he seems really pro-town, but his claim is a lie." Asking people to put aside whether they believe the claim is really just asking people to put aside all suspicions of armlx genearally.

If the point you're trying to make is "let's move on to something else cuz role discussions are boring" then fine. But if you're trying to say "evaluate armlx WITHOUT the claim," then, well, that makes no sense.


So, that said, let me try to state my thinking clearly. I believe in armlx's innocence BECAUSE I believe his claim. Which I do because I'm a sucker for D1 claims.

[Caboose]

vote: caboose

fos: falcone

armlx lives til endgame bc we won't lynch him and scum won't nk him without losing one of their own which is not a good trade for them

lindisfarne is probably town

Care to explain your vote?

Something about armlx's roleclaim is throwing me off. I'll explain later *posting as I'm running out the door*

[Lindisfarne]

I agree that if Armix is telling the truth then he should've definately claimed. Not confirmed innocent though.

This is pretty much the jist of it.

Does anyone here disagree with Emp's post?

I do I do!

So, to be clear, you're saying we should "accept" armlx's claim in such a way that we neither think he is or isn't necessarily scum.

Does no one see why this doesn't work? The claim IS the issue. I can't reasonably say "well, his claim seems legit, but he's behaving scummy, so I'll vote for him anyway." Nor can I say "wow, he seems really pro-town, but his claim is a lie." Asking people to put aside whether they believe the claim is really just asking people to put aside all suspicions of armlx genearally.

If the point you're trying to make is "let's move on to something else cuz role discussions are boring" then fine. But if you're trying to say "evaluate armlx WITHOUT the claim," then, well, that makes no sense.


So, that said, let me try to state my thinking clearly. I believe in armlx's innocence BECAUSE I believe his claim. Which I do because I'm a sucker for D1 claims.

QFT

Good logic, and you brought my attention to something I missed entirely. Personally I feel it's likely just a miswording on tiger's fault. Either that, or we are making too big of a deal with this. I just feel any claim, especially on the first page, is too big to just let go without inquiring over.

Lowell's post rings softly of town to me.

What's the deadline before prodding? I think some folks haven't posted as of yet. The more active conversation we have, the better.

[SensFan]

What's the deadline before prodding?

I prod on request. I will not prod anyone who has not gone 72 hours without posting.

[Lindisfarne]

Thank you sens.

reading caboose's quote of roflcopter has me thinking now...

how can you think I'm probably town rofl? We were only two pages into the game at that point, and I had posted, maybe 3 times. I don't see how anyone can really make an honest accurate conjecture like that so early, please enlighten me as to why you have a gumption im pro-town?

[guy0]

about what lindisfarne said about me, I'm just trying to look at what might be going through a scum's head psychologically. We have no leads so we need to work with what we have, which is a role claim, and people's wording.

It seems to me that falcone's first post was a reasonless vote that happened to be the same as someone else's, which could be harmless entirely or be his method of subtly trying to get somebody else lynched that isn't himself without further progress in the game.

Second he took a very extreme position in armix's case when he said why aren't we lynching him? granted his posts to have a certain degree of merit, but they always seem to be targeting those who are already slightly in the line of fire.

I truly see what you are trying to say and I agree with you. There is definitely not enough information to lynch him at this point, i'm just trying to point out trends that we may see continue later on in the game.

You just said we needed to get off the conversation of armix so i'm trying to present new ideas.

From what i've read I get a town vibe from lindis.

[guy0]

who was the last part of your post referring to lindis?

[Lindisfarne]

I correct myself over post 58: I had posted 6 times at that point, not 3. I still don't feel what I said during that time had enough merit for anyone to get a town read from me though, and would still like to hear rofl's opinions on that.

guy: A few problems with your train of thought.

Falcone had voted for jebus, whom already had a vote on him. That is true. There was one vote on jebus, yet you say he jumped on a vote that "happened to be the same as everyone else's". I take it you consider one person as "everyone else"?

Also, you chose to ignore the situation where Lowel and Alvinz both voted for the same person. You find it suspicious when falcone does it, yet not when lowel puts a second vote on rofl? Please explain why falcone was suspicious and not lowel? And don't bring the arm argument into your defense, since this occurred BEFORE arm even claimed.

I dislike defending people in general. I feel a person should defend themself when called to question on their actions, and I look forward to falcone's defense against you. It could hopefully reveal more about your alignment.

Personally though, your logic isn't adding up to me. I can understand being antsy over Falcone's comment about lynching arm, it unsettled me a bit as well. But your early vote of him during the random voting stage, ignoring another person who did the same thing he did, feels odd.

[Lindisfarne]

I was referring to roflcopter.

[Sineish]

Second he took a very extreme position in armix's case when he said why aren't we lynching him?

Why won't we lynch armlx?

armlx lives til endgame bc we won't lynch him

which seems like a legitimate question to me.

As for him putting the second vote on, in the stage where random voting is usual, I don't find at all suspicious.

[armlx]

Why didn't you wait until later in the day to claim?

The immediate claim prompts discussion and doesn't derail existing ones.

[quote"Lowell"]
I can't reasonably say "well, his claim seems legit, but he's behaving scummy, so I'll vote for him anyway." Nor can I say "wow, he seems really pro-town, but his claim is a lie."
[/quote]

PGO is pretty much a town role (plus if I was scum PGO, not claiming is optimal so people do night target me), and I wouldn't lie about my role as town, so neither of those are realistic scenarios.

Lowell's post rings softly of town to me.

I agree.

Guy0 is misreping Falcone. Falcone merely wondered why people auto accepted my claim as true. He's also using it to say Falcone is scummy. That's god enough to

Unvote, vote Guy0

[guy0]

we'll need to see how things progress.

[guy0]

i admit i'm probably being to hard on him this early in the game, i just want to compile reasons why people vote for others without having to scroll through pages and pages of text when i notice something peculiar.

[armlx]

guy0, votes the first couple of pages don't usually have reasons on this site and aren't expected to. The reason is that this process of random voting eventually leads to discussion. That said, once said discussion starts reasons are expected.

[Matt_S]

Guy0 is misreping Falcone. Falcone merely wondered why people auto accepted my claim as true. He's also using it to say Falcone is scummy.

Looking at the way Falcone's post is worded, that is a big misrepresentation. However, I could understand how guy0 could have misread that post. What I don't really get is roflcopter's FOS. The only thing that could have provoked it is this:

good claim armlx, that basically gaurantees you live to endgame.

Explain please.

Falcone is trying to get the logic of how armlx's claim means he will live till the endgame. The response:

vote: caboose

fos: falcone

armlx lives til endgame

bc we won't lynch him

and scum won't nk him without losing one of their own which is not a good trade for them

lindisfarne is probably town

Italics mine. The reasoning not in italics makes sense. Conversely, the reasoning not in italics lacks a little something. What's the problem? Well, since when will armlx not be lynched? Again, Falcone notices the illogical argument:

Why won't we lynch armlx? Does his roleclaim make him automatically protown in your eyes?

Now, for some reason, guy0's attack of this post is getting more attention than roflcopter's crazy FOS. I don't see anything good about roflcopter's post.

Unvote, Vote roflcopter.

[Falcone]

It’s a pity roflcopter didn’t get to answer the questions in my previous post, but the point is moot now. As several people have already pointed out, I didn’t suggest lynching armlx

right now

,

just because of his claim

. Instead, I wondered why roflcopter said that we would

never

lynch armlx and let him live until endgame.

For the record, partly in response to Lindisfarne's #61, and without properly thinking things through from a theory point of view, my stance on armlx is the following.

- If he is what he says he is, he probably made the right play by claiming right away.
- PGO is a convenient role for scum to claim, for obvious reasons (it’s basically untestable).
- PGO is also a rather rare role, making it even more tempting for scum to claim (small risk of being counterclaimed).
- Therefore, it’s impossible to figure out whether armlx is scum based on his claim alone (WIFOM!).
- Therefore, I intend to decide whether or not to lynch armlx, today or on any other Day, based on his actions and his behaviour. He starts out with a notch in the “scum”-column, though, just because I’m paranoid of letting scum ride an untestable claim to victory (see also: BWCS).
- This also means there might come a time, depending on the development of the game, that it’s “scientifically” correct to lynch armlx

just because of his claim

. This time is definitely not on Day 1.
- So basically, yes, I agree with Empking's #48.

Incidentally, guy0's posts on the subject seem more like a townie who was a little too fast to jump to conclusions, rather than a malevolent scum to me. On roflcopter, my judgment is withheld until he posts some more.

[Demon Pineapple]

Hmmm...
I'll reread and try to make sense of this when my brain isn't so fuzzy.

Unvote

Just in case the mod gets cheeky and counts my joke vote.

[Caboose]

Let me elaborate on what I was saying earlier.

@ armlx: Why should I buy your roleclaim? Is it unreasonable for me to believe that you're scum trying to evade a cop investigation or a vig kill?

I'm not liking rofl's play AT ALL. Why is he just taking what armlx is saying as absolute truth? I question armlx's roleclaim, and I immediately get a vote

with no reason attached to it

from rofl.

[armlx]

- Therefore, I intend to decide whether or not to lynch armlx, today or on any other Day, based on his actions and his behaviour. He starts out with a notch in the “scum”-column, though, just because I’m paranoid of letting scum ride an untestable claim to victory (see also: BWCS).

That's ironic given the fact you want to avoid WIFOM, yet give into it by assuming my claim is scummy or townie.

@ armlx: Why should I buy your roleclaim? Is it unreasonable for me to believe that you're scum trying to evade a cop investigation or a vig kill?

Its not unreasonable to realize its a possibility. Its unreasonable to assume its one way or another just based on the claim.

[guy0]

Why won't we lynch armlx? Does his roleclaim make him automatically protown in your eyes?

If another suitable person to lynch is not found, falcone makes a good point. If we HAD to lynch a town member, it might as well be armix since he doesn't add much to the town's protection in comparison to any normal townie. If he was telling the truth, scum would NK him anyway and if he is gone then that's one less person to worry about in terms of investigations.

There's always the plus side that he is scum and we made the right choice

[guy0]

Oh, and also [/b] Unvote