FF7 Mafia (Game Over)

[borkjerfkin]

Read that post.
Over those five years, have you ever tried to reach out to him or help him improve his play at all? Or have you just been insisting he is the worst player on site?
If it's just being hung up about what you consider to be low quality of play, the way you're going about it here doesn't help him grow at all.
It's clear that you've identified what you think makes him a poor player. You should take it upon yourself to help him become a better player. Challenge him. Inspire him. Don't be a jerk. Be awesome instead.

The way it looks to me, you've got him figured out. If that's the case, you could easily team up with him any time he is town or snuff him out any time he is scum. As a scum player, you could manipulate him to your own advantage to win. Having that sort of facility with another player doesn't make them 'bad', either. What you should be more focused on is making sure he learns from these experiences. If you just give him a hard time, then he may never learn, and then you're just as much to blame for his continued standard of play.

This might be my favorite post ever

[ProHawk]

Should I not have scum-claimed? It somehow brought about a speed lynch, but I think I was going to get lynched anyway? dunno....

[Radja]

Radja I'm so happy you have a different picture because I used to think that dude had like a lazer on his head or something pointed at me.

I did it especially for you!


not really though. I just like change.

[borkjerfkin]

Should I not have scum-claimed? It somehow brought about a speed lynch, but I think I was going to get lynched anyway? dunno....

I think it was the right move, dead thread disagreed. You should've come out and said you were Rufus right away though; the manner in which you claimed didn't look like you were being as truthful about that as you might've been

[borkjerfkin]

I mean I wasn't gonna include a Shinra scumteam without Rufus on it

[Sajin]

Should I not have scum-claimed? It somehow brought about a speed lynch, but I think I was going to get lynched anyway? dunno....

It was a hard road while not claiming but nigh impossible with the claim of scum. Your best bet was to bring up doctor setup balance again, talk about sensor results and try to identify town and convince them. You attacked too many people imo. Perhaps you could have brought up the fact that mollie should of died before given optimal play from scum and thus she was more likely scum. Also, I thought it would of been better for you to push for mass claim earlier and claim vanilla a day earlier to avoid the jailkeeper. You were pretty much the only non claimed non red scum so that likely influenced a block on you (Side note, last people to claim? Mostly scum. Go figure). You had a great shot of winning if you actually killed mollie. This would of resulted in a prisoner's dilemna situation with 1v1v2. Your setup speculation seemed out of place from a town perspective when talking about number of mafia left alive (which seiko and others noticed and correctly suspected you for).

[Cerberus v666]

Should I not have scum-claimed? It somehow brought about a speed lynch, but I think I was going to get lynched anyway? dunno....

Given your belief that mollie was scum, Seikos statement that they wanted to analyze more before voting, and my displayed and commented on tendency to be stupidly cautious with my vote (unless it's specifically to see how people react to things like balancing counterwagons), I don't think claiming scum was great. It made me want to go reread things, but too many people were on the verge of voting for you already, and that just pushed them over. A vote on Mollie, with your stated reasons, without the scum claim, would have given you more time to try to talk people into voting her. Seiko was your real problem there, I don't know if you could have ever convinced them that mollie was scum. If not, then your play gave you the best chance at a win or draw. If you could have convinced them though, a slower reveal and push on mollie may have been betted.

[pieguyn]

You should've come out and said you were Rufus right away though; the manner in which you claimed didn't look like you were being as truthful about that as you might've been

tbf, this coulda been prevented if i actually covered all my bases and requested a flavor claim before voting. /sigh

the only problem with claiming scum in that scenario was that claiming shinra scum is exactly what meteor scum in your position would likely do to get out of being lynched, so you didn't get any cred from it. see: what gif and tiphainedeath were gonna do in xenoblade until gif got cross killed. besides that, you were absolutely getting lynched that day, so i think it was correct. you're talking to someone who has truthfully claimed scum for strategic reasons in two separate games, though (you saw the second time <_>), so i might not be the right person to give advice on this

this is another part of why i dislike multiball in general tbh because it encourages strategic scum claiming regardless of whether it's truthful or dishonest

i would have lynched hiplop if i thought i could 1v1 him and win

[Feysal]

How did I get turned into the bad guy here?

Over those five years, have you ever tried to reach out to him or help him improve his play at all? Or have you just been insisting he is the worst player on site?

Neither. I have played mafia with him, tried to reason with him only to find him unreasonable, and tried to make sense of him only to find him unsensible. But apart from the post I linked to, I had never called him the worst player on site.

You may be right that I have figured out his problem, but it is not something I can help him with. I don't think anyone can, because he is not willing to learn. He has played in dozens of games, and if he has not learned from the example of others, I think it is because he does not care. I have seen him play the village idiot card to defend himself, and he just did it again in this game. Did you check the link he shared, where someone chronicled his antics on another site? Eight bans for disrupting games and other offenses, including two permanent bans he talked his way out of. And he shared this link with apparent

pride

. I don't think anyone can help him if he does not want to get better. Others have tried. I know that Vi the

Professor Paragon

once played with him on a hydra account, and was apparently unable to teach him anything.

I know that blacklisting is supposed to be the last resort, but with Furcolow I think every other option has been exhausted. I can only hope that finding others unwilling to play with him would give him reason and motivation to improve his play, since nothing else has worked.

[pieguyn]

mostly out of curiosity, cv666, would you have lynched hiplop over me if i had voted him that day?

if you wouldn't have, i regret that last day a lot less. /hides

[Cerberus v666]

mostly out of curiosity, cv666, would you have lynched hiplop over me if i had voted him that day?

if you wouldn't have, i regret that last day a lot less. /hides

Do you mean on the last day, or do you mean in a hypothetical 3p lylo?

[pieguyn]

ya the last game day

[Varsoon]

@Feysal: I don't think you're a bad guy for having the reaction you have. It's a normal reaction to have--this is the internet. If you don't like something, you can voice that and move past it. That said, I wouldn't call teaching another player a lost cause. It's all about communication. As of now, he may think, "Oh, these other people don't like my approach" but might not see exactly what is wrong with it or what's keeping him from winning games. Shutting him out and crossing arms over the whole thing seems contrary to making it better, and also diminishes the community we should all be striving for. If one method of teaching doesn't stick, try another approach. It's clear that insisting on the negative qualities of his play and his inability to learn hasn't been an effective model. I think you understand what's 'wrong' with his play in a very comprehensive way and instead of channeling that into a blacklisting or badmouthing (which just seems to push him to continue to play that way, as if being contrarian) isn't helping for a variety of reasons. I think you're a smart player and that you could challenge him in different ways and bring him to new heights, is all. It'd be a shame if you just gave up on that.

<3

[Cerberus v666]

After mollie voted hawk, and everyone spoke without a hammer, there is no chance I would have voted outside of {Mollie, Hawk}. PrIor to that, had you voted hiplop early, it would have created the same kind of 1v1 between the two of you to me. I assume prohawk would have voted, and then I would have had to see if a seiko/hawk team made sense, and then gone from there.

In a void, just based on who I felt was scummier, I have no fucking idea. Hiplop had NOTHING going for him. Like, there was no reason to town read him for me, and he was buddying to me earlier. You were deliberately provoking me, as someone who you townread, instead of trying to work with me. I am 100% serious that I needed to reread things. Looking the game over, I feel like I would have noticed that you weren't doing what scum you should have been doing with my slot. There was little reason to be confrontational with me, as scum, when only one of hiplop/hawk could be your partner, and the other was an easier mislynch. If I had noticed that, then yes, I would have lynched hiplop over you. I'm not sure how quickly I would have gotten around to it though.

It's all pretty crappy, because I know, with hindsight, that the clues were absolutely there to clear you and condemn mollie, but I don't know if I would have picked up on it.

[pirate mollie]

@Feysal: I don't think you're a bad guy for having the reaction you have. It's a normal reaction to have--this is the internet. If you don't like something, you can voice that and move past it. That said, I wouldn't call teaching another player a lost cause. It's all about communication. As of now, he may think, "Oh, these other people don't like my approach" but might not see exactly what is wrong with it or what's keeping him from winning games. Shutting him out and crossing arms over the whole thing seems contrary to making it better, and also diminishes the community we should all be striving for. If one method of teaching doesn't stick, try another approach. It's clear that insisting on the negative qualities of his play and his inability to learn hasn't been an effective model. I think you understand what's 'wrong' with his play in a very comprehensive way and instead of channeling that into a blacklisting or badmouthing (which just seems to push him to continue to play that way, as if being contrarian) isn't helping for a variety of reasons. I think you're a smart player and that you could challenge him in different ways and bring him to new heights, is all. It'd be a shame if you just gave up on that.

<3

I loved what you said varsoona. both in the previous post and in this 1.

both parties have to be open to communication though and that is not always what happens. while I really appreciate the sentiment of your post I don't think it is fair to chastise feysal if he has tried to talk to saint and saint has never responded or been open to dialogue. and sometimes you just have to recognize that your energies are best spent elsewhere.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm, I realized I said mollie above, when I meant to say hiplop.

And yes, everything Varsoon is saying about not being jerks to each other and actively working to improve the community by working together to improve each others short comings, rather than just writing people off and removing them from the community, is fantastic.

[Tere]

@Feysal: I don't think you're a bad guy for having the reaction you have. It's a normal reaction to have--this is the internet. If you don't like something, you can voice that and move past it. That said, I wouldn't call teaching another player a lost cause. It's all about communication. As of now, he may think, "Oh, these other people don't like my approach" but might not see exactly what is wrong with it or what's keeping him from winning games. Shutting him out and crossing arms over the whole thing seems contrary to making it better, and also diminishes the community we should all be striving for. If one method of teaching doesn't stick, try another approach. It's clear that insisting on the negative qualities of his play and his inability to learn hasn't been an effective model. I think you understand what's 'wrong' with his play in a very comprehensive way and instead of channeling that into a blacklisting or badmouthing (which just seems to push him to continue to play that way, as if being contrarian) isn't helping for a variety of reasons. I think you're a smart player and that you could challenge him in different ways and bring him to new heights, is all. It'd be a shame if you just gave up on that.

<3

I loved what you said varsoona. both in the previous post and in this 1.

both parties have to be open to communication though and that is not always what happens. while I really appreciate the sentiment of your post I don't think it is fair to chastise feysal if he has tried to talk to saint and saint has never responded or been open to dialogue. and sometimes you just have to recognize that your energies are best spent elsewhere.

A better worded version of what I wanted to say.

[pieguyn]

In a void, just based on who I felt was scummier, I have no fucking idea. Hiplop had NOTHING going for him. Like, there was no reason to town read him for me, and he was buddying to me earlier. You were deliberately provoking me, as someone who you townread, instead of trying to work with me. I am 100% serious that I needed to reread things. Looking the game over, I feel like I would have noticed that you weren't doing what scum you should have been doing with my slot. There was little reason to be confrontational with me, as scum, when only one of hiplop/hawk could be your partner, and the other was an easier mislynch. If I had noticed that, then yes, I would have lynched hiplop over you. I'm not sure how quickly I would have gotten around to it though.

aaaaaaggghhhh

in hindsight, hiplop was absolutely the correct lynch because he was scum regardless of whether hawk was meteor scum fake claiming or telling the truth. I was just worried hiplop and mollie would counter vote me and then I'd get lynched (and this is even outside of the fact that hawk apparently thought I was mollie's partner and could potentially vote me anyway).

if I wasn't so fucking hasty on the last day, we could have potentially won. I'm gonna go die in a fire now.

[pieguyn]

I agree with mollie/Tere's take on blacklists; outside of extreme playstyle clashes I only blacklist people who have a demonstrated attitude of not taking in feedback and continuing to insist they're right about whatever it is they did.

[Varsoon]

I think you're right, Mollie.
If an effort is made and things don't work out, it isn't reason to give up. People should challenge themselves. I see helping others improve as just another 'challenge' of the game of mafia.

I feel that spending energy elsewhere is important if both parties aren't open to communication. That energy shouldn't go to just giving a player a hard time, though. If you're going to give a player criticism, it should be done in efforts to improve their game and tighten the community.

I know this can be hard, though. Games are high-stress, several-month investments. It can suck when a game goes south for your team due to one player's incompetence. I think it's for that reason that we all have to try to be less bitter/elitist/exclusive, as that kind of response isn't what's going to lead to better games. I think channeling that sort of 'I cannot stand you, you suck, we lost because of you' feeling towards appropriate critique is very important.

[Cerberus v666]

I think any question of whether or not saint has been spoken with before without result depends on how people spoke to him. It's all about how you aprprpach the individual in question.

Pedit: no, pie, I could have easily missed it, or not had the time to reread as I intended to. I've meant to iso and properly reread things in this game for weeks now, and never did it, even when I only had this game to look at, so there's no guarantee I would have actually been able to think things through.

At the time you voted, had you voted hiplop, I would have questioned you about why you'd possibly want to lynch outside of hawk/mollie when we have a worst case 50% chance at catching scum, with our analysis likely only improving that %. At that point, there was almost no chance I'd vote for anyone else...so don't feel like you could have pulled me to hiplop.

[pieguyn]

I can be pretty convincing when I'm actually right about something. ~

and I'm not saying we necessarily would have, just it would have turned out better than ... what happened here

[Cerberus v666]

I can be pretty convincing when I'm actually right about something. ~

and I'm not saying we necessarily would have, just it would have turned out better than ... what happened here

Ha, not doubting your persuasiveness, but I can't imagine an argument for hiplop scum that would have swayed me from the empirical evidence in the thread showing one of mollie or hawk had to be scum.

And, sure, it would have been a better result, but it would have been a better result if I had actually played. Or if hiplop and mollie had played worse. This isn't all you. I mean, I understand how it can feel that way, I just hammered town in lylo in a game where myself and my hydra partner spent 70k+ words discussing and analyzing the game. It sucks to actually try and have it not work out, but you can't take all the blame on yourself. There are other people in this game too, and way too many moving parts, to beat yourself up over the outcome.

[mastin2]

Should I not have scum-claimed? It somehow brought about a speed lynch, but I think I was going to get lynched anyway? dunno....

In my opinion, given the gamestate, you were screwed either way.

What you needed to do, though, was go ALL OUT on your scumclaim. Claim who you killed AND WHY, and who YOUR BUDDIES TARGETED and why.

If you had given that information, then Seiko might have thought you were telling the truth about being Shinra, because you were either telling a convincing lie, or telling the truth using knowledge only an actual Shinra would know.

But since the extent of your scumclaim was, "I killed mollie twice", and then, only LATER saying, "Oh, yeah, btw, I'm Rufus and I'm a Godfather", it left you wide open.

Seiko still hammered a bit prematurely, though. In their situation, while I'd hesitate to believe you and would in fact be thinking you were Meteor just like they did, I'd have asked for the above info, and if you could have provided it, then I would have realized the truth behind your words and lynched mollie.

Soyeah. Nothing wrong with claiming scum...but when you do it, you really,

really

need to actually go full-out and claim scum, holding nothing back.

[ika]

hmmmmm