Open 272 - Near-Vanilla (Over!)

[DavidParker]

Hey guys, you can blame Emp for my lack of content. I was flattered into replacing into his 30 page Large game recently and have almost managed (well kinda) to catch up. I promise I won't leave you guys.

[lord_hur]

@Looker : You seem very upset by me disturbing farside22's push against AntB. So, you want AntB dead (1) fast (2). And yet, you were not voting for him (3). Seems a bit contradictory, isn't it? Unless of course, AntB is town, and you're scum after a quick (2) mislynch (1), and don't want to be on the wagon (3).

[farside22]

I want to remind people in case AntBscum tries to fake claim what he said earlier in the game.

I will happily die (and even self hammer) if my flip will provide sufficient information, and even as scum if I feel it will throw the trail off my scumbuddies. However, my death now will provide nothing but a lot of "meh!"

Why the hell would you say this now, and not keep it carefully stashed away, to whip it at his face when/if he claims? I only see two logical answers to this :

1. You're scum, and didn't really think about the consequences, because you know AntB is not scum.
2. You're helping your scumbuddy AntB with his claim.

Refute this.

Unvote Vote : farside22

1> I'm at work all day and I for one don't want PR's to be outed like yesterday
2. no see above.

[farside22]

@Lord: Would you rather have scum fake claim again and out another PR and someone forget that little blurb?
I personally would rather protect the PR. I almost thought about saying something like.
Unless AntB claims VT or scum he is 100% lying. After day 1's PR being outed I certainly don't want a doc outed do you?

[andrew94]

although, lord hur is scummy for his over case on farside, looker is beyond scummy for switching to lord hur, a new wagon against antb

[Archer]

Lord_hur - your rephrasing helped me see what you are getting at and I think they are possibilities. My point was that farside is trying to corner AntB leaving him with no way out. From the original post I can see no town friendly way to explain it.

farside - Both ways have their pros and cons and I would've gone a different route and so I still dont like what you did, but I do understand now why you reminded us all of that little piece.

looker - the vote on lord_hur is for...? I think lord_hur was justified at that stage switching his vote. Your vote seems out of the blue

[farside22]

farside - Both ways have their pros and cons and I would've gone a different route and so I still dont like what you did, but I do understand now why you reminded us all of that little piece.

Like I said I thought of another way of saying it. I saw the L-1 statement from LH and realized AntB might claim while I'm gone. I wasn't sure if I would even log on being Valentine's Day and all so I did a quick reminder about his earlier statement so no surprise fake claim.
Helping keep a PR hidden is a good thing for the town, wouldn't you say?

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

I'm sorry guys, but I can't put time into this game. Was trying to hold on and hope i would have more time to post, but apparently not.

mod, replace me

as for any final thoughts, I still think antb is scum, and im thinking town for bella and davidparker. there is a grey area for pretty much everyone else. looker's vote back to me looked weird to me though, considering that he recently said he thought i was townie (for pretty bad reasons I might add. the fact that my lack of activity can be accounted for?)

[farside22]

@Archer: Why didn't you like what I did?

[AntB]

RL is truly a bitch and I'm sorry I haven't been able to provide more.

Andrew is scum, farside is leaning that way.

Pulling my selfr-hammer policy on me when we're NO WHERE NEAR the deadline is trying for quicklynch IMO..

My claim is thatI am VT. Pure an simple, no power but my vote.

Unless AntB claims VT or scum he is 100% lying. After day 1's PR being outed I certainly don't want a doc outed do you?

Well placed little nugget, here's my translation: "AntB: Claim VT or Scum and be lynched, claim a PR and we'll lynch you faster"

Awesomesauce. G'night.

[lord_hur]

@Lord: Would you rather have scum fake claim again and out another PR and someone forget that little blurb?
I personally would rather protect the PR. I almost thought about saying something like.
Unless AntB claims VT or scum he is 100% lying. After day 1's PR being outed I certainly don't want a doc outed do you?

Yes, being certain that AntB is scum would certainly outweigh risking to out the doc. That would, D4, leave 1 scum against 9 (!) town, 1 or 2 of which would be confirmed. And then, even if the doc is outed, doc/JK is still incredible : doc targets JK, JK flips a coin : heads he targets the doc, tails he targets someone else. This forces scum to either target doc or JK and have 1/2 chance of being ineffective, or target one of the others, leaving 2 confirmed town for a good, long time!

That's actually a better situation than what we have now by a landslide. Any scum managing to win that, with the amount of info we have D1/D2, deserves a scummy award, and I would bow to him/her in awe.

So yes, I was waiting for AntB-scum to bury himself in this ditch, and I consider your blowing it as alarmingly sub-optimal.

My play is not everyone's play, but I still expected much better from farside22-town.

Oh, I checked your time stamps, but I don't think it means much : I'm quite sure you never considered laying a trap for AntB, even if you're town.

[lord_hur]

My play is not everyone's play, but I still expected much better from farside22-town.

On reread, I think this expression can be interpreted as presomptuous. I meant to say that everybody plays his or her own way (which may or may not be mine), but that I think farside22-town would do better than this.

[lord_hur]

Sorry for the multiple posts.

That would, D4, leave 1 scum against 9 (!) town, 1 or 2 of which would be confirmed.

=That would, D3, leave 1 scum against 8 (!) town, 1 or 2 of which would be confirmed.

I didn't see that the mod's count on page 1 was off, and as to why I wrote D4, I have no idea except that it was very early in the morning.

[Looker]

Lord_hur - your rephrasing helped me see what you are getting at and I think they are possibilities. My point was that farside is trying to corner AntB leaving him with no way out. From the original post I can see no town friendly way to explain it.

farside - Both ways have their pros and cons and I would've gone a different route and so I still dont like what you did, but I do understand now why you reminded us all of that little piece.

looker - the vote on lord_hur is for...? I think lord_hur was justified at that stage switching his vote. Your vote seems out of the blue

• Neither of hur's assertions seemed valid to me.
  • farside wanting to ensure her top suspect is lynched no matter what isn't indicative of her being scum or AntB being town; it's indicative of her persistence and determination
  • Her posted reminder can in no way help him with a surviving fake claim because all she's doing is making sure we lynch him no matter what he claims. So, if anything, she's saying "Don't waste time trying to concoct a fake claim because we're just going to lynch you anyway", which is polite, not necessarily scummy.

---

• RE:lord_hur's speculation
  • The numbers kind of confused me so I'm just going to go by assertion.
    • I'm not upset, it's just that your allegations appeared to come from nowhere and I saw no reason why you made them, thusly making me suspicious. ("Do
      you
      think/know AntB to be town?" "Are you trying to set up a farside lynch/mislynch for tomorrow?" etc.)
    • Regardless of me wanting AntB dead or not, my voting for him would be a hammer and would end the day; I wasn't trying to rush anybody.
    • Being on wagons doesn't bother me, I'd just rather they be on people I think are scum. Voting just to get a majority doesn't interest me. (
      ESPECIALLY
      THIS FAR AWAY FROM DEADLINE, DUDE!!)
• RE:andrew's 2 cents
  • If I wanted a new wagon against AntB, wouldn't I have
    agreed
    with lord_hur and just voted farside?

[farside22]

@Lord: Would you rather have scum fake claim again and out another PR and someone forget that little blurb?
I personally would rather protect the PR. I almost thought about saying something like.
Unless AntB claims VT or scum he is 100% lying. After day 1's PR being outed I certainly don't want a doc outed do you?

Yes, being certain that AntB is scum would certainly outweigh risking to out the doc. That would, D4, leave 1 scum against 9 (!) town, 1 or 2 of which would be confirmed. And then, even if the doc is outed, doc/JK is still incredible : doc targets JK, JK flips a coin : heads he targets the doc, tails he targets someone else. This forces scum to either target doc or JK and have 1/2 chance of being ineffective, or target one of the others, leaving 2 confirmed town for a good, long time!

That's actually a better situation than what we have now by a landslide. Any scum managing to win that, with the amount of info we have D1/D2, deserves a scummy award, and I would bow to him/her in awe.

So yes, I was waiting for AntB-scum to bury himself in this ditch, and I consider your blowing it as alarmingly sub-optimal.

My play is not everyone's play, but I still expected much better from farside22-town.

Oh, I checked your time stamps, but I don't think it means much : I'm quite sure you never considered laying a trap for AntB, even if you're town.

I disagree. Scum can be hiding well, unless you know otherwise. I have seen scum blend in well with town and out PR's for the win in the end. They may get that 1/2 chance of failing N2. I'm not thinking about that. I'm thinking about having 2 confirmed town in game for as long as possible. If AntB is scum like I suspect then the last scum has no where to hide with a fake claim then.

[farside22]

Andrew is scum, farside is leaning that way.
.

Oh look who's following the crowd with no actual case again.

[Bella]

Okay, can we please get on with lynching AntB now?

[farside22]

Okay, can we please get on with lynching AntB now?

I want Archer to answer my question first.

unvote

So there is no quick lynch right now.

[lord_hur]

• Neither of hur's assertions seemed valid to me.
  • farside wanting to ensure her top suspect is lynched no matter what isn't indicative of her being scum or AntB being town; it's indicative of her persistence and determination
  • Her posted reminder can in no way help him with a surviving fake claim because all she's doing is making sure we lynch him no matter what he claims. So, if anything, she's saying "Don't waste time trying to concoct a fake claim because we're just going to lynch you anyway", which is polite, not necessarily scummy.

---

• RE:lord_hur's speculation
  • The numbers kind of confused me so I'm just going to go by assertion.
    • I'm not upset, it's just that your allegations appeared to come from nowhere and I saw no reason why you made them, thusly making me suspicious. ("Do
      you
      think/know AntB to be town?" "Are you trying to set up a farside lynch/mislynch for tomorrow?" etc.)
    • Regardless of me wanting AntB dead or not, my voting for him would be a hammer and would end the day; I wasn't trying to rush anybody.
    • Being on wagons doesn't bother me, I'd just rather they be on people I think are scum. Voting just to get a majority doesn't interest me. (
      ESPECIALLY
      THIS FAR AWAY FROM DEADLINE, DUDE!!)

Answers to all of your points:

- Oh, because "making sure someone is lynched no matter what" is indicative of being town? It means you don't care about what might come up, because you're positively sure of someone's alignment. Must I remind you who are the ones who know everyone's alignment for sure?
- I said I think it's much more likely that farside22-scum is aiming for a mislynch than helping fellow scum.

- Yes, it's coming from nowhere. And? What was I supposed to do, wait for a week so the scumtell magically improves? This is my style, and I'm quite happy with it. I voted Battousai in strictly the same manner, and I don't remember you jumping on me for it. What's different now? You didn't want to be defending your buddy in case he got lynched, but you don't care so much now because you know AntB is town?
- Reread what you wrote. You jumped on me for interfering in a push at L-1, for god's sake. How can anyone perceive this as not wanting a quicklynch?
- Blanket statement. This doesn't explain that you want dead someone that you are not voting.

You do not provide any satisfying reason for voting me. I'm considering switching my vote, depending on farside22's answer to this :


@farside22: Your answer intrigues me. Can you give me one example, just one, of outing one PR being more hurtful to town than having 2 scum left instead of 1?

[Archer]

Oh, I'm holding things up, I feel so important Moving on

farside - I think that having 8 town vs 1 mafia (D3) is good enough odds, especially considering the 50/50 chance of scum being able to NK either PR. Absolute worst case the way I see it is if AntB is scum there is 1 left. That scum targets doc, JK targets someone else. If that someone else is town then D3 we have 2 confirmed + 6 town vs 1 scum. If JK magically hits scum well then its game over. And all this of course also hinges on whether or not the real doctor would've actually spoken up, which is certainly not a given. I personally would not have done what you did. Your claim that you were afraid you would not be online though is valid, and hence although I still dont like it, I cant see anything inherently scummy in it.

I'm also withholding my vote for now as I'm curious as to what SotS replacement might have to say. Otherwise AntB does look to be where my vote will fall, the claim didnt do anything for me and I still dont quite buy the too busy act since his other games do not seem to have suffered

[farside22]

@farside22: Your answer intrigues me. Can you give me one example, just one, of outing one PR being more hurtful to town than having 2 scum left instead of 1?

Can I ask why this question assumes that you know for fact that AntB will flip town?

I did state that I believe AntB to be scum. If I'm correct then tomorrow the numbers are 1 scum and no fake claim in the world will save them.
So I ask one more time why do you believe so strongly that AntB will flip town?

Also the game I was referring to were I saw PR's being outed was a mason game with a scum win.
IE: The scum kill each confirmed town and go for the win at the end by bussing, blending in and distancing each other.
So yes out a role, scum kill the role, scum can still win.
In case you missed it. I don't think about what the scum may or may not do for kills.
I am protecting the PR's because one last time for clarity: IT IS A GUARANTEED TOWNIE THAT NO ONE CAN QUESTION!

[farside22]

farside - I think that having 8 town vs 1 mafia (D3) is good enough odds, especially considering the 50/50 chance of scum being able to NK either PR. Absolute worst case the way I see it is if AntB is scum there is 1 left. That scum targets doc, JK targets someone else. If that someone else is town then D3 we have 2 confirmed + 6 town vs 1 scum. If JK magically hits scum well then its game over. And all this of course also hinges on whether or not the real doctor would've actually spoken up, which is certainly not a given. I personally would not have done what you did. Your claim that you were afraid you would not be online though is valid, and hence although I still dont like it, I cant see anything inherently scummy in it.

Dear God. I'm going to have to WIFOM a possiblity aren't I?
Sigh
Okay imagine for a moment that AntB scum fake claimed. The real doc is now outed.
The mafia kill player X (say some random town player) The doc protects the JK, the JK uses his ability on the player the mafia just sent the kill in for.
Now everyone thinks either (a) the doctor saved the JK (b) the JK blocked the killed or (c) someone may think the 3rd is possible and everyone WIFOM themselves into a frenzy and with your thought process would go with (B) choice.
You see why WIFOM a death is bad yet? I would rather see a doctor do their protection of the JK and scum keep kiiling off VT's as it leave 2 confirmed town alive. In case of LYLO it' helps the town (that's what I look to is the worse case).

[farside22]

@LH: I have one last question:

- I said I think it's much more likely that farside22-scum is aiming for a mislynch than helping fellow scum.

What makes you come to this conclusion with my reminder to people to beware of a fake claim.

[lord_hur]

@farside22: Your answer intrigues me. Can you give me one example, just one, of outing one PR being more hurtful to town than having 2 scum left instead of 1?

Can I ask why this question assumes that you know for fact that AntB will flip town?

I'm completely confused. Outing the doc would only, ONLY happen if AntB claimed PR, and thus is scum. If AntB is town, he doesn't claim, and no one is outed. How can you derive from me asking this question, that I think, or even better, that I know that AntB is town?

So I ask one more time why do you believe so strongly that AntB will flip town?

I might be mistaken, but I don't remember this coming up earlier. Where do you get that I believe AntB to be town? I can't defend myself if I don't know this. My position has not changed since last time I've talked about it : AntB is slightly scummy to me, but would not be my first choice for a lynch.

I am protecting the PR's because one last time for clarity: IT IS A GUARANTEED TOWNIE THAT NO ONE CAN QUESTION!

Every town wants this, all other things being equal. But look at this my way: I have a poor reading on AntB, unlike you it seems. For me, knowing for sure that he is scum would be a huge boon. As I said earlier, it would put town in a very good position. Yes, there would be a loss. But this loss would not happen without one scum biting the dust. A great trade-off from my point of view, in my opinion.

- I said I think it's much more likely that farside22-scum is aiming for a mislynch than helping fellow scum.

What makes you come to this conclusion with my reminder to people to beware of a fake claim.

If you're scum, I can't picture your interactions with AntB as bussing. It's not at all linked to your reminder.

But the answer to this third quote made me realize something I didn't take into account. farside22-town honestly thinks that AntB is scum. So, establishing him as certain scum is not as attractive to farside22-town as it is for me, and maybe not worth outing a PR, depending on her experience. This invalidates my conclusion that her actions are much more likely to be dictated by scum intent than town intent.
The only logical consequence there can be is to :

Unvote

I'll have to think about the implications concerning my conclusions about Looker's vote.

[inHimshallibe]

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