Mini 1426 - Hell's Bottom


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Post Post #600 (ISO) » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:31 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

In post 598, qwints wrote:
In post 596, YOLO wrote:
Anyway, I think we're done talking.


Why? We've got a lot of time, and the information I didn't want scum to have is already out there. The only more information that could hurt us tonight is a lying protective role getting outed, and I don't see that as a significant danger. At this point, why not try to get more information out there? There's the added bonus that scum don't have a chance to co-ordinate (unless they have daytalk, I guess, but that's uncommon in my experience).

We're certainly lynching Desperado, but I'd like Elyse and I to be able to do more for town before the day ends.

I guess I'm confused on what you want to get out of drawing things out? Are you expecting a tearful confession from another scum?
Rainbowdash wrote:
In post 587, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 578, Rainbowdash wrote:Flay is one scum

Quoi?

Mostly how Desp accused jeromus of coaching you (only use of the term for him entire game) and how while even voting you early stage he downplayed you as possible VI using the fact that I defended you as reason to move his vote.
*scratches head* So a dead townie "coaches" me, and copped-scum calling it out makes ME scum? Run that by me again?

Also I'm pretty sure all the "Flay is a VI" crap at the beginning of the game is just playstyle-related. Used to be I had BoP, now I'm a weird old man.
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Post Post #601 (ISO) » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:42 pm

Post by qwints »

In post 600, Mr. Flay wrote:Are you expecting a tearful confession from another scum?


Hoping for a slip, and wanting Elyse and I to have as much input as possible before tonight.
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Post Post #602 (ISO) » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:05 pm

Post by Rainbowdash »

In post 600, Mr. Flay wrote:*scratches head* So a dead townie "coaches" me, and copped-scum calling it out makes ME scum? Run that by me again?


Yep. Coaching is a term used for scum telling other scum what to do. Desp sounds like he is calling jeromus scum for coaching you, and I dont really think when we see thats somethig Desp doesnt normally talk about he doesnt come up with it without one of you being scum. Here I think he is scum with you so called jeromus on something that is scummy because he knows that you are scum so it actually becomes an alignment tell.
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Post Post #603 (ISO) » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:36 pm

Post by 10506670 »

Should I bother prodding Desperado?
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Post Post #604 (ISO) » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:51 pm

Post by qwints »

Another reason RBD is scum, she soft pushes me.

In post 523, Rainbowdash wrote:
In post 521, qwints wrote:The massclaim will not continue until everyone has weighed in on Despeardo's status.


Okay quints actually might be scum for this one.



In post 538, Rainbowdash wrote:
In post 534, qwints wrote:Now he's already claimed VT. Unless there's a PR that can clear him or who can implicate someone else, I don't buy that a mass claim is going to give us a better suspect. If that's the case, then doing anything besides lynching Desperado is a bad idea.


I dont.

Last chance. If you dont claim in your next post my next post will have a vote for you.


When she was expecting my claim:

In post 546, Rainbowdash wrote:
I actually was kinda thinking thats what qwints was going to claim but we definantly finish massclaim now.


And, according to her internal logic, the only 3 scum set-up involved me being town (since she thinks Flay is scum and HD/YOLO are vanilla)

Her play doesn't make sense as town. It does make sense as scum scrambling to account for the fact that her go-to mislynch me had something up their sleeve. I honestly believe no townie could reasonably believe desp was town and I was scum after yesterday's hammer, but she acted like she did even though it was the only plausible scenario that could lose the game for town today.
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Post Post #605 (ISO) » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:36 pm

Post by Rainbowdash »

In post 604, qwints wrote:Her play doesn't make sense as town. It does make sense as scum scrambling to account for the fact that her go-to mislynch me had something up their sleeve. I honestly believe no townie could reasonably believe desp was town and I was scum after yesterday's hammer, but she acted like she did even though it was the only plausible scenario that could lose the game for town today.


Its not soft push, it was blatant push as your response to me asking for massclaim was really bad. If you have a guilty in what you think is lylo you claim it. Plus given that you never were a town read for me at any point in the game really, not sure what your point is there.

Anyway, just because you are acting like you have role related information does nothing to make you obviously town or anything like that. First its not always possible to tell saying you have information apart from "im sure". Just because a player reads like they might have role information doesnt mean you just blindly buy it, especially at lylo, double especially when they are claiming it on a player who logically should never have been targeted. Even now "no way anypony could believe he was town" and you TARGET him?? I would actually not at all be shocked if you are still scum because your own logic just says you shouldnt have targeted him.

Basically all you are saying is "I was obv-town and Desp was obv-scum" when really, you were not at all. You actually targeting him proves that. Also the whole "go to mislynch" thing is a joke. If I pegged you as a good cop bet as TOWN you could bet I would have done that as scum looking for more PRs, I tend to be pretty good at tracking them down by behavior alone, when they are breadcrumbing or anything its easier. Ask HD on that one, was scum in a game with him recently and I called the BG night one and figured the tracker within the first couple posts of D3 when they started talking about my partner. Either way as scum my "go to mislynch" would have been Flay/YOLO, I had called both scum together and was very free to attack either of them. Never even really mentioned you up untill that point, I looked good with a Desp-scum flip being basically the only one who called him scum before the hammer, why destroy a good thing try to defend him from role information there? Also for that matter why kill BB who was suspicious of you if you were my mislynch?

Second, as I have said Desp was a horrible target for an investigation. Yolo/Flay or something would have been better since neither were dying and both were more likely to be around in an endgame. You dont target the player who you think is most likely scum as cop. Or any info role really. Its fundamentally bad play. A couple of cop play 101 failings still make me only at about 80% you are actually a cop because you should know this stuff.

Third... im not sure what your point is. It seems like you are complaining that you werent obviously town really more than anything else. Given that its obvious that I figured you for PR, why do I play how I did as scum there? Only way you would ever have been lynchable is another strong PR claims, which as scum would be obvious doesnt exist - since I was coming out the gate swinging I would have had all partners compared for massclaim as well. So where is my advatage as scum for doing that? Even if im going to push you are most likely in a scum duo only, Desp is still the correct lynch there so that doesnt work. There is no win playing like that as scum. None. So why even do it?
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Post Post #606 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:41 am

Post by Elyse »

/inb4 Rainbow/Desp/HD scumteam.

I feel like Rainbow is manipulating us with all of her tell and speculation bullshit to try to make it look like she's town when really, she hasn't helped us at all with it except push us into massclaiming when two confirmed townies disagreed.
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Post Post #607 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:53 am

Post by qwints »

RBD, do you think I was wrong about Despardo being obv-scum w/o an investigation or do you think I was wrong to investigate him? It can't be both.
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Post Post #608 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:03 am

Post by Rainbowdash »

In post 607, qwints wrote:RBD, do you think I was wrong about Despardo being obv-scum w/o an investigation or do you think I was wrong to investigate him? It can't be both.


From
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Post Post #609 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:07 am

Post by qwints »

But since I was actually wrong about him being obv-scum (according to you), then the investigation was actually a good thing, right?
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Post Post #610 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:23 am

Post by qwints »

Not that it really matters, but my play was fundamentally about being risk adverse. There was a chance that Desparado was actually just being a VI. I also wasn't guaranteed to investigate someone who would be alive today. I certainly considered investigating Bub Bidderskins during D2 because his attack on me felt so forced and tunneling a townie to the exclusion of mislynch wagons is something I've seen scum do.

I'm just confused why you're trying to convince me, who you have as 80% town, that I should have been more confident in a read you disagreed with.

I also don't get why you would have risked losing the game with your Despardo vote if you thought it was likely that I was scum and Desp was town. Why were you so sure that if I was scum there were only 2 scum?
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Post Post #611 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:58 am

Post by Human Destroyer »

This is a generic message that says something along the lines of
V/LA from Friday night through Saturday
.
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Post Post #612 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:44 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

In post 602, Rainbowdash wrote:
In post 600, Mr. Flay wrote:*scratches head* So a dead townie "coaches" me, and copped-scum calling it out makes ME scum? Run that by me again?


Yep. Coaching is a term used for scum telling other scum what to do. Desp sounds like he is calling jeromus scum for coaching you, and I dont really think when we see thats somethig Desp doesnt normally talk about he doesnt come up with it without one of you being scum. Here I think he is scum with you so called jeromus on something that is scummy because he knows that you are scum so it actually becomes an alignment tell.

Yeah, okay. "coaching" is not a 100% tell, so you're just talking. Cool.

FWIW I actually understand what qwints is saying about picking a scummy target. RBD is relying WAY too much on absolutes and theory here, and it's ringing scummy to me.
Mod: .... uhhh, since you're not going to confirm him as scum hopefully, then...yes?
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Post Post #613 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:00 pm

Post by Rainbowdash »

In post 610, qwints wrote:I also don't get why you would have risked losing the game with your Despardo vote if you thought it was likely that I was scum and Desp was town. Why were you so sure that if I was scum there were only 2 scum?


Becuase I was really confident that the entire setup was all VT + Elyse with two scum.

@Flay - Its not as much dealing with absolutes than it is when play is poor from a decent player, goes against theory and is convient, its something to pay close attention to. Picking a scummy target is essentially always bad play as a cop outside of being in something almost gamebreaking, so I will call him out on it.

Also yes, that comment attacking jeromus for "coaching" you paired with how he quickly just believed my reason for calling you town and passed you off as VI, you are a decent pick for scum. YOLO is where I keep getting torn because of his "I wasnt prodded" statement (which is also why he was in part VT) as that pairs up with a player who mod missed going inactive or knew was active the entire time. Then again you are also scum because HD-YOLO pairing? Really?
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Post Post #614 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:06 pm

Post by qwints »

In post 613, Rainbowdash wrote:Becuase I was really confident that the entire setup was all VT + Elyse with two scum.


Why?

And do you think I was wrong to think Desparado was scum?
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Post Post #615 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:19 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

In post 613, Rainbowdash wrote:@Flay - Its not as much dealing with absolutes than it is when play is poor from a decent player, goes against theory and is convient, its something to pay close attention to. Picking a scummy target is essentially always bad play as a cop outside of being in something almost gamebreaking, so I will call him out on it.
Agree to disagree, then. After several mislynches, I'll tend to go with a scummy target for Copping, as it'll either avoid a mislynch or confirm a good target.

I just think your current Desperado-read is retroactive from 539. You've 'suspected' pretty much everybody in the game at some point, and always have a theory to support it.
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Post Post #616 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:31 pm

Post by Rainbowdash »

In post 614, qwints wrote:Why?


I am vanilla, I was reading YOLO as vanilla, reading HD as vanilla, reading Desp as vanila. So all that left was you, BB and Flay. 12P is odd to start but 11P is a classic two scum setup so thats what I expected to continue with some slight modification (if any really) to the scumteam. A play on mountainous given the minimalistic way the game was unfolding power wise.

And do you think I was wrong to think Desparado was scum?


No. To think "how can anypony ever have him as town" was quite wrong which is what you are posting when you YOURSELF copped him meaning you were not sure he was scum or it would be a wasted investigation.

Also my current Desp read is based mainly on the investigation. Not sure where I would have gone without it, but I quickly went to qwints-scum given his response to me asking for a massclaim and instead just trying to power a lynch through.
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Post Post #617 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:35 pm

Post by Human Destroyer »

qwints rbd probably isn't scum

tbh you'd probably have been killed by now

townread on him helps too
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Post Post #618 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:37 pm

Post by qwints »

In post 617, Human Destroyer wrote:
tbh you'd probably have been killed by now


For the breadcrumb? or what?
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Post Post #619 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:40 pm

Post by Human Destroyer »

no rbd has a knack for reading people's roles, he's right

he probably would've figured out you were a cop by now and killed you
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Post Post #620 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:44 pm

Post by qwints »

RBD, at what point did you start thinking I was a cop?
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Post Post #621 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:04 pm

Post by Rainbowdash »

In post 620, qwints wrote:RBD, at what point did you start thinking I was a cop?


It was obvious you had something role related pretty quickly into today. As I already said though there were only three possible shots at PRs last night without even hunting PRs and your "I know you arent a cop" comment to BB looking back at it is obvious. You just pay more attention to those things when you are scum, VT stuff I always look for but PRs are more of that "oh thats why they were reading funny" moments for me as town usually.
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Post Post #622 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:07 pm

Post by 10506670 »

When I said prodding it was more like replacing. I have a feeling Desperado might not return within 48 hours of his last prod, but it would be a pain to find a replacement possibly just to be lynched (think FourTrouble).
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Post Post #623 (ISO) » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:27 pm

Post by Desperado »

I am here, present, and prepared to be lynched. Not much I can do about a cop investigation.
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Post Post #624 (ISO) » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:00 am

Post by YOLO »

In post 598, qwints wrote:
In post 596, YOLO wrote:
Anyway, I think we're done talking.


Why? We've got a lot of time


I'm not interested in sitting around and sipping tea for two weeks. What you're suggesting is that we can use those two weeks to find more scum, but I disagree. Finding scum with town's regular weapons (votes, bandwagons, threats of lynch) is hard enough already, but without those weapons it's impossible. Random questions aren't going to find scum.
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