Mini 2331 - Touhou UPick: Anonymous Edition (Game Over)

[Yuuka Kazami]

Okay, if you don’t want to try that is your prerogative.

I’m not interested in forcing you to play mafia unless it involves some guarantee I’ll listen. If affirmation is what you want out of mafia instead of getting it right for the sake of getting it right: Or winning for the sake of winning. That’s cool.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yes, mafia’s win condition yesterday was to kill Kagerou.

was kaguya pushing that?

Yes.

[Reisen Udongein Inaba]

Yes, mafia’s win condition yesterday was to kill Kagerou.

was kaguya pushing that?

Yes.

fair enough, i didn't really read

[Yuuka Kazami]

Unfortunate.

[Reisen Udongein Inaba]

Okay, if you don’t want to try that is your prerogative.

I’m not interested in forcing you to play mafia unless it involves some guarantee I’ll listen. If affirmation is what you want out of mafia instead of getting it right for the sake of getting it right: Or winning for the sake of winning. That’s cool.

No, I just know how this tends to go. You've telegraphed your intentions.

I -did my job-. I got it right, but only because I decided it was more important to follow the word of someone who played the game far longer than I had. And honestly if the roles were reversed and I were in your shoes, I probably follow the word of the clear here as well. No resentment but don't ask me to dance for you when your mind's made up.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Okay. Thanks.
It's unfortunate that you won't point out where and how Kagerou is scum. Usually that's the fun part.
I have no clue why you play mafia.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Hmm. Yeah, you did spend almost your entire replace in town casing Kagerou, getting ready to scum case me and just said Kaguya is good scum which is neither here nor there.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Question for you reisen, if you were scum would you lurk out in melo to win a game?

[Reisen Udongein Inaba]

don't be a fucking dick, this is exactly what i mean. you're just being insulting. you can fuck off if you think i'm going to deal with that.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I have to solve the game whether you want to solve it or not. If you don't want to cooperate, what am I to do besides say, "okay, you may sit in the corner"?

I'm not insulting you, I just don't understand where your emotional head is at.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Games of mafia can always be pointless, there's no guarantee that you'll win or be able to persuade someone, that's part of the challenge of the game.

[Reisen Udongein Inaba]

Hmm. Yeah, you did spend almost your entire replace in town casing Kagerou, getting ready to scum case me and just said Kaguya is good scum which is neither here nor there.

isn't it kind of obvious that if i thought kagerou was town then kaguya would be scum by PoE? the most i had against kaguya was them shading my slot before i replaced in, and their day 1 posts were so unmemorable I didn't comment a lot. But it's not like I didn't express that read at all. But, like, I had 2 days after I replaced in basically. I was wrong, obviously. That's what happens when you try to rush reads.

Question for you reisen, if you were scum would you lurk out in melo to win a game?

Probably yeah. I'm pretty bad at scum, I've won once in the last 2 years.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I know, but Kaguya also did PoE and usually, while I PoE my own perspective tends to flip as the game gets closer to the end.

I start with PoE and then gradually I go to traditional scum hunting and not town hunting, so it kind of confuses me when someone starts trying to use PoE in melo. I'm not sure if it's unnatural or if people naturally tend to play how I play near the end.

I won't know.

[Reisen Udongein Inaba]

I have to solve the game whether you want to solve it or not. If you don't want to cooperate, what am I to do besides say, "okay, you may sit in the corner"?

I'm not insulting you, I just don't understand where your emotional head is at.

if you told me to sit in the corner i wouldn't have a problem but stuff like "I don't know why you play mafia" is needlessly snide

[Reisen Udongein Inaba]

I know, but Kaguya also did PoE and usually, while I PoE my own perspective tends to flip as the game gets closer to the end.

I start with PoE and then gradually I go to traditional scum hunting and not town hunting, so it kind of confuses me when someone starts trying to use PoE in melo. I'm not sure if it's unnatural or if people naturally tend to play how I play near the end.

I won't know.

usually in that position I'm looking for the person who is town amidst the scum, because you can usually scumcase anyone but towntells are harder to fake. i say this fully aware i got it wrong.

[Reisen Udongein Inaba]

whatever i'm not in the right headspace for this i'll come back later

[Yuuka Kazami]

I think from my perspective, it's simply odd to identify someone as a strong scum and just leave it there without looking at them at all further than that. There just aren't many players left in the game for that sort of side blindness.

Kagerou, in their way, looked at everyone and Aya certainly did, though they didn't show it.
In contrast you and Kaguya didn't seem to do so. I never really got why neither you nor your predecessor poked at them for their lack of suspicion or paranoia.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I have to solve the game whether you want to solve it or not. If you don't want to cooperate, what am I to do besides say, "okay, you may sit in the corner"?

I'm not insulting you, I just don't understand where your emotional head is at.

if you told me to sit in the corner i wouldn't have a problem but stuff like "I don't know why you play mafia" is needlessly snide

Yeah, I just am not sure if you're posturing/trying to take on an unconcerned affect. I don't see what it gains you to do so.

Uh, my definition of snide on wiki is saying that it means false or deceitful. So I think you mean another word, since, yeah, I don't know why you play mafia. Sometimes I can lack nuance or appreciate that questioning someone can come off as disrespectful depending on what the question is. It's usually best to look for sarcasm in my posts, and if there doesn't seem to be any, read it like someone who lacks abstract thinking. Concrete thinking.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I actually can't remember you placing any suspicion on them at all beyond the "they could be scum, caution everyone" thing.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I have to solve the game whether you want to solve it or not. If you don't want to cooperate, what am I to do besides say, "okay, you may sit in the corner"?

I'm not insulting you, I just don't understand where your emotional head is at.

if you told me to sit in the corner i wouldn't have a problem but stuff like "I don't know why you play mafia" is needlessly snide

They are? Huh. It's funny that most of Kaguya's marks against them fell into the "They would do this as scum, but probably not as town" that sort of informed/alignment related play. It's classic play, I guess is how it feels.

You can see classic town play as well. in how Aya approached last day phase. Essentially taking their time and doing their diligence. Far past the point where scum would. As you pointed out, Kaguya was trying to speed the game along.

It's just awkward for you here, because they were specifically trying to speed the game along to kill Kagerou. Ticking clocks are a scum's tool and it appeared to be one they favored because of how they handled Marisa.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Ah, context since you probably didn't read what happened with Marisa. 2 day phases ago Marisa used a multi vote ability, but claimed that I was scum if I didn't receive a message I was blocked by her. She had an ability that blocked anyone who had a spell card.
I had said in thread the day before and, honestly you could probably guess before that, that I didn't have a spell card. But Marisa didn't seem to realize that or was doing a reaction test.

Kaguya played it that Marisa simply forgot to use their four votes to kill Reisen and that we had to hurry to capitalize on their unforced error. We killed Marisa before they got back.

Your predecessor asked if they were dead, when they realized they were not they voted Marisa.

Kagerou said they weren't going to do anything until they figured out what their abilities did.

Both responses were pretty weird to me.

[Yuuka Kazami]

So, Kaguya knows how to use time as a weapon of opportunity and they spent most of yesterday trying to hurry things along before Aya was done. Refusing to get lost in the weeds with me. It is interesting that you pointed out that they seemed to be trying to hurry things along. I didn't really get it.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Rather, why you'd point it out, but didn't seem to do anything with it besides, I guess, shade them.

[Yuuka Kazami]

...Why is Dai on the outside for you?

They just aren’t as strong as my other townreads. I’d at least like to think my townreads are right.

Why are you even wishfully thinking about these things.
We can be wrong, most of the time we are, holding on to that isn't advantageous when each day brings new information about someone's alignment that should conceivably lead to greater accuracy an opportunity to see the game more clearly etc etc.
Albeit you can also be lead astray, this day phase is especially vulnerable to that sort of maneuvering i think.

Well when I think of what scum needs to do post day 1, and this is going to sound completely biased because it’s the opposite of what I’ve been doing, is pick up the pace.

I don’t doubt that Larva was the designated deep wolf considering their position after day 1 and that suggests the other two were in worse positions. Day 2 scums deep wolf flips and I would imagine the remaining partners need to scramble to improve their position. Do I think that needs to be an immediate push? No but day 2 onward that is moved up on the agenda scum had previously.

You and kaguya fit that bill as slots that have had the perception of them improve gamewide over the last two days. Compared to kagerou or Marisa whose standing has either worsened or remained steady.

Err I’m questioning if that’s even a valid way to go about reading you, as a duo not a pair. Because I feel like I’m attributing the scum behavior of one onto whichever is town between you. Since you’re both showing similars signs they’re either not scummy or the town there is playing towards a scum goal.

I guess I am indeed in kill one of Reisen/Kagerou and try to extract the truth from what Marisa claims. Or they make it easy by claiming a guilty equivalent on me like I asked if they're scum.

Day copped you and it’s red!

Kagerou not to pull you off the dai/yuuka team but what do you think about kaguya?

Kaguya, did yuuka/dai’s timing on when dai came back to thread not bother you at all?

I’ve been mulling over it for awhile now.

Evens/odds is only like a marginal advantage/disadvantage. And probably wouldn’t be my main concern.

Even/odds is the difference between having 1 conftown in 5p and having 0 conftown in 5p

That’s what marginal means yes.

Dai came back after yuuka publicly voiced concern about who clownpiece was in the hood with. Dai came back like immediately after.

What's your point?

I was curious why it never even crossed your mind as suspicious.

Yuuka makes the public realization that the clownpiece hood is unclaimed, dai pops back in with the knowledge you were in the hood with clown and drops a vote. It would be suspicious if I were you. It doesn’t involve me and I made note of it timing wise.

I guess I could have coordinated with them.
But then I spent hours faking ignorance when apparently, I knew the whole time what they were discussing and what their roles were.
That would be hard to fake and come off as unnatural.
If you think how I was posting was unnatural there, I'd be pretty surprised.

That’s fair.

So this is the crossroads I’m at. Dai is still on the outside of my townreads.

I’m not too invested in yuuka/dai

I think kaguyas behavior comes off scummy, but a S/S hood with dai also doesn’t make sense to me. Not to mention they could just not mention the hood at all if so.

Yuuka makes the public realization that the clownpiece hood is unclaimed, dai pops back in with the knowledge you were in the hood with clown and drops a vote. It would be suspicious if I were you. It doesn’t involve me and I made note of it timing wise.

Still not getting why this is suspicious, do you think other people weren't having the realization of "everyone checked in and no one has claimed the hood -> either Dai or scum were in the hood" just without posting it?

Idk maybe it’s just we have different styles. There’s a bigger thing that I can’t wrap my head around and it’s your handling of dai. I can’t imagine you were that sure of dai!town when this plan was being made if you were willing to omit or withhold info between the hoods. But things like not being put off by the yuuka/dai timing comes off like you were already in the town!dai camp.

So it doesn’t line up to me, I can’t get behind the thinking.

So I have 2 pieces of information, kind of. Kaguya targeted themselves last night. Doesn’t make them not!scum it just makes them not the one performing nightkills.

This also means either scum can’t roleblock anymore OR kaguya is the roleblocker and blocked themselves.

I haven’t looked back on the claims list but I think it can be narrowed down since multiple spell cards can’t be used the same night. Actives can be used with spell cards though.

Mech mommy tell me what it means.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yuuka this isn’t working I’m just townreading kagerou more.

Reisen why am I scum?

I think you’re moving too sly for town. Even your analogy for playing chess here, it just really fits your M.O.

I had issue with you playing positionally before and it hasn’t changed now that you’re openly admitting to playing positionally.

I think you’re moving with intention in a non town way. Things like treating yuuka as town in your actions (specifically the yuuka callout, dai response/revive) while saying things like you’re evaluating them or calling them scum mechanically.

Things like skating around me because I feel like you will absolutely need my vote in an eLo situation but you can still pivot out if like, another town gives you enough leeway.

Dunno enough about make to make a claim of manipulation but would also fit the M.O.