Mini 1023 - City Watch Mafia - Game Over!

[Budja]

unvote, vote FG

Vote + power use show strong survival instinct.

VOTE COUNT

TheButtonmen (3): Narsis, Chronopie, FakeGod
FakeGod (2): VasudeVa, Budja
Budja (1): Plum

Not Voting (3): TheButtonmen, jimfinn, Thor665

With 9 alive, 5 is needed to lynch.
Deadline is Friday 17th.

[FakeGod]

Vote + power use show strong survival instinct.

.....and? That means I'm mafia?

[Budja]

I could see a townie trying to persuade Thor, but removing his vote? That bugs me.

[TheButtonmen]

@FG:

You never expressed any suspicion of me when I was in immediate danger of being lynched then when pressure started building on you you pulled a 180 and started attacking me trying to divert it back onto me.

More tonight, I'm in class at the moment and don't have too much time.

[Plum]

V/LA took longer than expected.

Still crazy busy, but quick read reveals that Thor's been doing nothing but tunneling on me, pulling threads about a conspiracy theory and trying to get VV support at all costs.

I hate to get lynched after a mod-confirm-un'ccd claim, especially when last two times (Mysterio and VV) mod gave powers to Vanilla Town. (Mysterio flipped Vanilla, and as far as I can tell, our JK saved VV from an attempted Night Kill, so VV is town, plus, my own situation, a Power-Received Vanilla Town, adds to the credibility if you look at it from my point of view)

In fact, one thing mafia would want to do is to discredit/lynch a mod-confirmed VT, and the exact argument they would make would be to argue WIFOM on how broken the game setup would be if mod were to confirm a townie every day.

Button is also guilty of this with his relationship with VV, and given the time-constraint, he's going to be our lynch today.

Vote: TheButtonmen

P.S. I'm using STRENGTH on Thor. lol

Scum. You're not confirmed anything but that no one else is actually Dorfl. Definitely not Mod-confirmed Town. And Thor's been one of the Towniest players in this game. I can wait on jimfinn, am really worried that Budja's slipping under the ol' radar, and am leaning Town, or simply against a straight scum read in any case, on TBM.

FakeGod>>>jimfin~Budja>TBM

@Narsis: He wanted me lynched; hence his vote was on me.

He showed no intention of switching it, and deadline's in 4 days.


@Chrono: It's great that you know the flavor much more that I do.

Flavor Question: I wiki'd a bit and learned that Dorfl, like other golems, speak by pronouncing all of his words with capitalization. Is this true?

Because I breadcrumbed in my 327 (onset of day 2) this:

Why State Obvious Things? Just In Case Mafia Didn't Understood???

Capitalization of all words. Something (I hope) what Dorfl does in the series.

Since you know the flavor well, I take it that you saw the breadcrumb? (did anyone else?)

or are my wiki skills failing....

If you're scum, you came into this game with that fakeclaim and knowing that it would be used in flavor like that, presumably.

unvote, vote FG

Vote + power use show strong survival instinct.

Yeah, power use on Thor, mostly because Thor stated intents to vote for him and whatnot, show priority of survival over stuff like scumhunting.

[jimfinn]

I agree with the above that the use of Strength after nearly the full town told him not to, as it would be inherently an anti-town move, makes FakeGod likely to be scum for either acting against the town's best interest or for not reading the thread carefully.
Therefore I
VOTE: FG

[Thor665]

I was going to make a post concerning FakeGod's actions. Pretty much Plum then somehow went into my head, extracted the information, went back in time, and then posted it up before I even got here.

BlockedVote: FakeGod

I'm actually relatively okay with him blocking my vote because that could be considered a town play insomuch as if he's town he wouldn't want us to mislynch him and waste the turn. But his off hand 'hai, I blocked U' commentary didn't exactly fill me with a town vibe from his actions. I would expect town to also (as Budja noted) probably have at least tried to convince me with something other then 'But I'm Dorfl' as an argument especially considering I'd never suggested he wasn't Dorfl and, in fact, had told him I believed in his name and power claim.

Given Series Flavour, I'd be reluctant to believe that Dorfl is town.

Nobby, Vimes - Both Important Characters in the books.
Colon, Angua, Carrot, Detritus - Other important Characters in the books

Dorfl... Not so much. Down there with

Cheery

, Stronginthearm, A.E Pessimal etc.

I will say Dorfl is certainly a bigger (pun unintended) character then the others you list him with - he was basically the namesake character in Feet of Clay, I'm actually sad that book was his only major feature role.

In any case, I'm somewhat neutral about trying to figure out which characters would or would not be scum based off of relative importance to the series - we can start that contemplation after we see another scum flip because then it might be a bit more viable, for now, 'meh'.

[Thor665]

For those who care - I also got a notice PM about being voteblocked.

I commend molestargazer for writing it in a way that isn't clear for it being a scum or town action (t'was just a heavy blow from behind and apparently now I'm so befuddled from the impact no one will listen to my mumbling).

[Plum]

In any case, I'm somewhat neutral about trying to figure out which characters would or would not be scum based off of relative importance to the series - we can start that contemplation after we see another scum flip because then it might be a bit more viable, for now, 'meh'.

I wouldn't bother mod-WIFOM on which characters are more/less likely to be real vs. safe/fakeclaims,

especially

before a mass nameclaim (which considering we have Vimes claimed VT and someone else claimed powerrole might have little in the way of a downside - but I digress). As a Mod I've known myself to mix it up quite a bit and give safeclaims along the spectrum of 'important characters' fairly proportional to the characters I actually put in the game.

[Thor665]

You are correct that mod WIFOM is a dicey game. Let's just say that if Fate flips scum with a fakeclaim of Sir Not-Appearing-in-this-Feature I'd at least be willing to take a roll. And yes, I'm well aware I'm mixing up my British comedy, it's slightly fawlty of me but my day at the office was a long one.

Remember to tip your wait staff.

[Chronopie]

Can't say I noticed your crumb.

Although it is a noticeable trait in the books.

[FakeGod]

Can't say I noticed your crumb.

Although it is a noticeable trait in the books.

Well, at least I didn't mess up the wiki search...

@Thor: I'm rather curious about something. You do not believe that mod isn't confirming a town everyday, because that would be favoring town way too much. Say town lynches me and I flip VT, as I said I was. Would you then believe that the mod is confirming a town every day? Answer yes or no, because I want to ask more questions based on your answer.

[Thor665]

I will note that I am not answering in a yes or no fashion because with the double negative in your question I'm suspicious it would only cause confusion, especially since the double negative is reversing my actual belief.

If you flip VT I will still not believe that the mod is only granting day powers to town players.

[FakeGod]

I agree with the above that the use of Strength after nearly the full town told him not to, as it would be inherently an anti-town move, makes FakeGod likely to be scum for either acting against the town's best interest or for not reading the thread carefully.
Therefore I
VOTE: FG

Compared to....

I am now inclined to believe his claim and that he is town.

I don't want to lynch FakeGod today.

Opportunistic much?

Notice that both jim and budja (his #677) used the same

excuse

to jump on the wagon: I used STRENGTH!

Terrible reasoning (you two, feel free to argue why it's a great reason to lynch someone in your next posts), but I guess with the deadline approaching and all, scum feel like jumping on any opportunity to lynch a mod-confirmed town.


Here, why don't I start by answering jim's ISO 55.

Using STRENGTH accomplishes two things: banishes any misgivings about me lying about my powers, and makes me harder to be lynched (since Thor wasn't going to switch his vote). Since I know I am town-sided (mod-confirmed to boot), it's in town's interest to not lynch me, and I do what I do make it hard as possible.

You guys fear that you're going to lose out on voting info, but that's really just a lame excuse at this point of the day. With the deadline looming close and Thor staying adamant about his vote on me, there was really no info that I'm robbing town, is there? Thor already declined to join the TBM wagon, and I didn't see him going after anyone else as much as he did against me. Unless Thor was going to switch his vote at the last second and hammer TBM or something (which I don't see him doing), I really don't see what possible info I could've robbed town.

Preview: ninja'd by Thor~

[Thor665]

Since I know I am town-sided (mod-confirmed to boot)

You keep saying stuff like this - it's not helping.

Could you explain *exactly* how you believe you are mod confirmed? Maybe quote the mod's comment where he says something like "Dorfl is pro-town" or something?

I sorta hate to admit it but I will agree that FG has a decent point on jimfinn, that does seem a sudden reversal.

[FakeGod]

@Thor: Then you would definitely try to lynch tomorrow's mod-confirmed-player? (given I flip VT)

Since, I and Mysterio were VT, chances would be extremely high from your point-of-view that mod will confirm a scum tomorrow, isn't that correct?

In fact, even though evidence we have (Mysterio flipping VT) clears VV and me (if the mechanic holds), you're going to go against it and lynch mod-confirmed players?

You're clearly attempting to outguess the mod by guessing (against evidence I again emphasize) that mod will not confirm towns only. I'm completely against this, seeing that we're gambling the game away on your guess on how well the game is balanced. (it doesn't take many mislynches to lose, but ironically, according to your logic, more mod-confirmed VTs that flip, more likely the next mod-confirmed player will be scum. How many VTs do you need to see flip before you abandon your logic?)

Also, do realize that mafia will be forced to kill mod-confirmed VTs anyways. (you do realize what no kill last night probably signifies?) I really don't see why we should go with your intuition.

However, if you are scum who already knew that mod was confirming town only, the argument you just made is the exactly the one scum_Thor would've made. (you do realize that, don't you?) Because as you said, scum would be pretty desperate to get rid of the confirmed VTs, and will jump on the chance any way possible, including attempting to discredit the mod-confirmed players.

Again, I don't think attempting to outguess the mod on the setup is a good idea at all. The mod clearly balanced it (since it came through the setup reviews), and guessing at the balancing mechanism will lead us to doom.

Preview: I understand your misunderstanding. When I say "mod-confirmed", I mean that mod has acknowledged that I exist in the game, not "I'm auto-confirmed-town."

[Thor665]

@Thor: Then you would definitely try to lynch tomorrow's mod-confirmed-player? (given I flip VT)

Depends, is tomorrow's "mod-confirmed" player as scummy as you were yesterday?

In fact, even though evidence we have (Mysterio flipping VT) clears VV and me (if the mechanic holds), [snip] You're clearly attempting to outguess the mod by guessing (against evidence I again emphasize) that mod will not confirm towns only.

You do realize (even with oddly pointed asides) that you're guilty of the exact same presuppositions you are suggesting are poor logic in me?

You are presuming off of one flip and your role (even if, let us presume it is town) that the mod will never give the day power to scum. That is the same leap I'm making, just in the other direction. You say I'm ignoring Mysterio's flip, I say you are ignoring Tasky's flip. You are being quite odd if you actually think this disagreement is the basis of me wanting to lynch you. I want to lynch you because of how scummy you acted on Day 2. I only got into this whole "mod-confirmed" discussion because that's how you chose to frame your defense.

How many VTs do you need to see flip before you abandon your logic?)

Endgame and me asking the mod about it.

However, if you are scum who already knew that mod was confirming town only, the argument you just made is the exactly the one scum_Thor would've made. (you do realize that, don't you?)

This parenthetical aside makes me wish I could hammer you. You also just admitted my case could come from either a town or scum standpoint. That makes my case a null tell. Please address the actual reasons I want to lynch you if you think I am town and don't want me to wish to lynch you. Please avoid null tells if you think I'm scum and want others to help lynch me.

Preview: I understand your misunderstanding. When I say "mod-confirmed", I mean that mod has acknowledged that I exist in the game, not "I'm auto-confirmed-town."

It's called a player list. It's on page one. He admits we all exist in this game. I don't think even bastard mods avoid that rule (though that could be a funny game)

I'll also add, yet again just to maybe make you drop this weird point, that I have openly stated I believed you had the null-vote power when you claimed it and also believed you have Dorfl in your role PM (though I believe as a FakeClaim)

[FakeGod]

@Thor: Then you would definitely try to lynch tomorrow's mod-confirmed-player? (given I flip VT)

Depends, is tomorrow's "mod-confirmed" player as scummy as you were yesterday?

It shouldn't matter at all to you, since you believe out of four players (Mysterio, VV, me, and mod-confirmed player tomorrow), mod has confirmed a scum.

[FakeGod]

In fact, if you truly were town and believed you figured out the balancing mechanism, your vote should be on tomorrow's confirmed player faster than I can say "I'm Dorfl, a VT with STRENGTH"

[Thor665]

And since you believe you've figured out the mechanism you'd be on them saying "XXXXX is obvtown, let's lynch someone else" before they could say "My power is a triple daykill that scum are immune to"

Wow, if we automatically presume the other player will never use higher brain functions it becomes very easy to predict their actions. You're being silly.

You did notice in the post I voted you in I;
1. Defend (again) the belief that you had Dorfl in your role PM and that you had the null vote power you claimed.
2. Didn't believe that a day power auto confirmed you as town.
3. Pointed out how you'd avoided my questions to you regarding your actions to VV on Day 2.

You've re-written 1. so that I now apparently hold the opposite belief in your mind.
You've focused on 2. as though you *are* confirmed town and I'm crazy to think otherwise.
And you've continued to avoid and ignore 3.

[FakeGod]

Point 1: I never said you doubted my Dorfl claim or my power.

Point 2: I noticed you didn't believe my claim didn't automatically clear me. So we argued over it for past few posts. And your point? are you saying that I shouldn't believe what I'm talking about?

Point 3:

/not mass prodded due to pure awesomeness.

Pretty neutral on FG, not impressed by his commentary that the Dorfl claim somehow clears him. Newsflash: the Mod isn't confirming town every day

@FG - you were the best-est bud forever with VV yesterday and had understood his breadcrumbs...you also tried to lynch him because it wouldn't "look believable" if you didn't try to lynch him. What do you see as the pro-town angle in your actions here?

This is what you're referring to as your point 3.

I already answered it in my #590 and you apparently didn't read it. Please read my posts.

And since you believe you've figured out the mechanism you'd be on them saying "XXXXX is obvtown, let's lynch someone else" before they could say "My power is a triple daykill that scum are immune to"

Look at it from my point-of-view. I know I'm a VT. Game starts. I see a VT get mod-confirmed, and given a power. Then he flips VT. Next day, another VT gets mod-confirmed, and is given a power. Because Vimes is an important protagonist and he finds us a scum, I take VV by his words and believe he is not lying. Then I get mod-confirmed and is given a power.

Following this train of events, I don't think it takes much deduction powers to be convinced that all mod-confirmed players are VTs. Therefore, I believe in it.

You see all this as well (except maybe "I'm VT" and the "mod confirms you" part), yet you choose to believe that mod do not confirm only VTs. You think you figured out the balancing mechanism. But 1) there is much less evidence to believe that mod do not confirm only VTs, other than "it's the balancing mechanism!", and 2) if you were scum, this would be the exact argument you would make to get a mod-confirmed player lynched.

Also, you haven't answered this to my satisfaction.

It shouldn't matter at all to you, since you believe out of four players (Mysterio, VV, me, and mod-confirmed player tomorrow), mod has confirmed a scum.

This is very important, because you said you believe that mod isn't clearing only VT, but scum too. Yet, even when I flip VT tomorrow, you're unsure to lynch the new-mod-confirmed player? This contradicts what you're saying.

Repeated in a box for emphasis:

Thor's belief: Mod is confirming scum as well as town.

Thor says

he still believes in the above statement even if I flip VT.

But if I flip VT, that means that by his belief there must be a scum among

Mysterio, VV, me, and newly-mod-confirmed player.

Yet, he says whether he votes him or not will depend how scummy this new player is.

So he apparently doesn't want to lynch the obvscum from his POV? What?

Conclusion:

Thor obviously doesn't even believe in his own statements.

Thor, tell me where I'm wrong with this above logic next time you post. k?

[Thor665]

I already answered it in my #590 and you apparently didn't read it. Please read my posts.

I'll admit I didn't recall you answering it.

Do you have any other town games where you've tried this particular gambit before? Town games where you've run a fake case on someone you are almost certain is town?

Thor, tell me where I'm wrong with this above logic next time you post. k?

Yet, he says whether he votes him or not will depend how scummy this new player is.
^^^
Your inability to understand the validity of this point is where you're going wrong. Whether or not I believe scum are amongst the people who receive day powers does not preclude me from also applying basic scumhunting techniques to decide if a given player is going to be scum. You seem to believe because I have stance 'A' that I am no longer allowed to hold stance 'B' despite them not being mutually exclusive.

[TheButtonmen]

Maybe he will realize the truth about VV scum, maybe the mod is handing out powers randomly and somehow town has gotten them every time or who else knows what.

Play the game, not the mod.

[TheButtonmen]

Ninja'ed by Thor I see.

To make my point clear your doing the same thing VV did, endlessly falling back on the fact you got a power rather then discussing in thread material.

[VasudeVa]

FG's #688 does bring up some good points on jimfinn. That looks a LOT like scum vote hopping on Town. I'll have to rethink this.

vote: jimfinn

We can spare some time for competing wagons.

--

Plum: You just called FG scum, put him on top of your lynch priorities. But you aren't voting for him.