Newbie 549: (Game Over)

[ting =)]

heya, i'll be out of town for a bit. i'll try to go online, but no guarantees. =(

[Sir Tornado]

I'm busy till Wednesday courtesy a robotics event. A few things to go by though:

1) Quick lynches do not help town by any means. A page 1 lynch is crazy.
2) I can't see how putting someone on L-1 is a definite proof for scuminess. I simply don't follow Rosso's logic here.
3) Even if we manage to establish that putting someone on -1 is pure scum behaviour, Rosso's argument that quick lynches do not allow scum to distance themselves is preposterous. You rely on scum behaving differently than town to catch scum in mafia. Not allowing the scumbuddy to react even if you are sure someone is scum is not really wise.
4) Sadly, this does not give us any indication to Rosso's own alignment. IIRC, Rosso plays like this generally.

Rosso, in newbie games, there are many people who get put on -1 early on. I don't think all of them come out to be scum. What makes you so sure that PWIRL is scum?

[niltiacjoan]

There goes our chance of getting a defense from PWIRL. xD

[bird1111]

Vote Count:
alvinz95 (2): Rosso Carne, BlckKnght
Rosso Carne (1): ting =)
Sir Tornado (1): Battousai

Not Voting (3): Sir Tornado, nititacjoan, alvinz95

With 7 alive it is 4 to lynch.

[Rosso Carne]

I'm busy till Wednesday courtesy a robotics event. A few things to go by though:

1) Quick lynches do not help town by any means. A page 1 lynch is crazy.
2) I can't see how putting someone on L-1 is a definite proof for scuminess. I simply don't follow Rosso's logic here.
3) Even if we manage to establish that putting someone on -1 is pure scum behaviour, Rosso's argument that quick lynches do not allow scum to distance themselves is preposterous. You rely on scum behaving differently than town to catch scum in mafia. Not allowing the scumbuddy to react even if you are sure someone is scum is not really wise.
4) Sadly, this does not give us any indication to Rosso's own alignment. IIRC, Rosso plays like this generally.

Rosso, in newbie games, there are many people who get put on -1 early on. I don't think all of them come out to be scum. What makes you so sure that PWIRL is scum?

theres no townly reason to put someone at L-1

ever.

period.

90% or better are scum, as no newbie town would ever {as can be seen from the amount of "youre aggressive, you must be scum" being thrown around}

[ting =)]

It's not aggresiveness I'm against, I like aggresiveness, it's... well, we've all already gone through this. I honestly think we've gotten all the discussion we can from the first day, I think we should all just put our votes on whoever we think is scummiest now.

[BlckKnght]

And to the meat, I dont understand why I'm scummy, except that you just continuously say im scummy.

I want to lynch someone who did a wrong, made a booboo, almost made a quicklynch.

quicklynches do NOT help the town, lynching quicklynchers are lynching people who do not help the town, and the only people that do not help the town are SCUM!

What is scummy in your actions is that you are pushing hard for a lynch of a player who is obviously a newbie. Quite probably a scum newbie (which is why I'm voting along with you) , but still somebody who might give misleading tells or even harm the town out of ignorance.

WHEN I TURNED AROUND IT WAS BECAUSE WIZZY DID A BLATANTLY SCUMMY MOVE. WHEN YOU SEE SCUM, YOU LYNCH

SCUM

DEAD!!!!!!

I agree with both of your points, but your argument begs the key question:

Was PWIRL actually scum, or just a newbie who made a really bad couple of posts?

I tend to agree with you on the answer, but I find your unwillingness to discuss or even consider other possibilities unhelpful to the extent of possibly being anti-town. Furthermore, a fast lynch of scum isn't in the town's benefit if they still end up lynching that scum later in the day. What's your hurry?

And now for something completely different.

I've been reading the thread some more to see if I could spot anything that might identify another scum in our group. Outside of the PWIRL/Rosso debate, I find myself suspicious of niltiacjoan. Here's my PBPA showing why:

Vote: Ross for putting a second vote on someone without any proof I can see.

First vote is at least nominally non-random. Taking Rosso's vote seriously is a newbie tell, but alignment neutral.

xD Wow, two bandwagons in the first two pages. Umm... I'm gonna go ahead and Unvote for the moment.
I think maybe PWIRL had been told lynches helped the town? I'unno. I've been told that a few times by my friends. xD I'm just a lynch hippie.

A good call, unvoting a fast moving bandwagon, but the rest of the post starts a pattern of wishy-washy behavior.

Post 48 was a stuffed animal, and no real content.

Post 59 was "I don't like wagons. xD", which I challenged and got in reply:

I don't like wagons. xD

Ok, I'll bite. Why don't you like them? Putting a few votes on a player can pressure them into making mistakes revealing their nature as scum or not. If nobody is willing to vote, nothing will ever happen in the game.

Granted, we've has some wagons go farther then they should have.

What do you think of the two suspects I pointed out above? Is PWIRL just a newbie who made a mistake, or is he obviously scum (or both)? Is Rosso pushing too hard for a PWIRL lynch?

You have posted several times, but you have not really contributed anything to the discussion yet. Consider reading on the wiki about strategy and post analysis, and try to come up with something.

xD In my games with my friends, if a bandwagon kicks off, the person it's on gets about 10 votes on him/her in the same IRL day. xD So, to me "bandwagon" doesn't mean pressure, it means lynch.

I'm new myself, so I don't really know. PWIRL made a bad move, but I don't really know.

As for Rosso, I think he's angry with us. xD
-goes off to read wiki-

As an aside, I think bandwagoning is safe from Vote 2 through Vote L-(the number of mafia). For a 7 player game this is pretty short: only the second vote on a bandwagon is reasonably safe. Bigger games will have bigger bandwagons. Our game got a bit out of control early on with two at L-1.

Back on topic, what I find notable in niltiacjoan's reply is more wishy-washy thinking, with "I don't really know" repeated twice.

According to the tells and stuff, Rosso and PWIRL seem most scummy.
I don't think they're buddies, though. Rosso seems a little to heated for that.
I'm not sure I like how PWIRL went ahead and called it a newb move. He might be covering up.
As for Rosso, I don't like how he's contradicted himself, but he could just be impulsive as was stated on page 1.

I can't fault the logic here, since it is mostly repeated from previous posts by me (and to a lesser extent Rosso, ting and battousai). Each player should be able to think for themselves. At least ask some questions!

After being called on her wishy-washy suspicions by ting, we got the following non-answer:

@niltic.

According to the tells and stuff, Rosso and PWIRL seem most scummy.
I don't think they're buddies, though. Rosso seems a little to heated for that.

You've called them both scummyish, but you don't think that both of them are scum. That means you think only one of them is mafia. Who do you most think it is?

-head/desk-
I don't know. They scored the same and each had something extra to recommend them as scum.
-diceroll- One is Rosso, two is PWIRL.
<1>d<2>

Randomly deciding who to vote at this stage (even between two suspects) is really not a good idea. A vote for PWIRL would have been L-1 again! Fortunately the dice tags weren't used correctly (leave out the < and > characters in the future).

After saying "Rats" in post 71 about the dice (but still not voting!), the only post left is:

There goes our chance of getting a defense from PWIRL. xD

This continues her pattern of more or less content-free posts.

Here's what I would like from niltiacjoan, in order to defuse my suspicions a bit:

1. Ask some questions. Surely there is something that Rosso or PWIRL's replacement could answer that would help you to decide between them. You don't need to limit your questions to them either. If you have questions for me or anyone else about any of our posts, please ask.

2. Do some analysis of your own. Don't just repeat the arguments that have been posted already. For example, you agreed with my suggestion that only one of PWIRL and Rosso are scum. Why do you think this is the case, other than the fact that I said so? Following a leader or crowd is scum behavior.

3. Vote, or at least indicate a willingness to vote based on solid reasoning. I don't encourage an L-1 vote until at least the middle of next week when all the players will be around again, but anything short of that is fair game if you have some reasoning behind it, and you can FoS with impunity.

4. Finally, be willing to have an opinion. Rosso may be an extreme example of opinionated play (and he may get lynched for it), but wishy-washy reasoning can be an even bigger scum tell than overaggressiveness.

My vote is pretty well settled on one of two targets today, but that won't stop me from pointing a

FoS: niltiacjean

.

[BlckKnght]

Oh, one more thing I forgot to add to my big post:

Welcome alvinz95. You've replaced into a pretty awkward situation, so I hope you can contribute something. If you're town, remember that you can win even if we lynch you, so try to help out as much as you can while you're around.

[niltiacjoan]

In my defense on point 2, I didn't notice you said that. xD
And actually, my reasoning was that if Rosso was gonna really try to force the lynch and make big posts full of cussing and exclamation points, I don't think they're buddies. xD


Um...
I think we've covered the Rosso and PWIRL ground pretty thoroughly for now. It might be nice if we could try to figure out who the other scum is. Then maybe we can get more tells from one or both of them.

[Sir Tornado]

theres no townly reason to put someone at L-1

ever.

period.

90% or better are scum, as no newbie town would ever {as can be seen from the amount of "youre aggressive, you must be scum" being thrown around

Nonsense.

I can show you several newbie games where a townie has put people on -1 on day one/two. here is one example. I also remember reading this game with a page 1 lynch with townies casting the third and fourth vote.

Also, do you have any statistical data to back your 90% claim?

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP:

I can show you several newbie games where a townie has put people on -1 on day one/two.

I mean

page

one/two

[Rosso Carne]

you can't say that any mistake is a newbie mistake.

its not a defense.

if it were, can i jsut say i made a mistake because im old? no. and if i did id hope you would lynch me.

being a newbie is not an excuse. if newbie games teach anything its that.

[Sir Tornado]

You ignored my post rather elegantly Rosso.

[ting =)]

@niltic. Blck's right, you did forget to vote for anyone after doing your dice thing. When he raised his suspicions on you, you replied to his points, but you still didn't bother to put your vote on anyone. Any reason why?

All in all though, I don't think any of your posts warrants an FoS, but that's just me. I get how blck thinks your posts are wishy washy, but i think you're just really unwilling to bandwagon, and are content to sit on the fence until you're absolutely certain someone's scum.

@alvin. You've replaced pwirl, who was the prime suspect of quite a number of the players here. It's possible that pwirl was just playing badly, but it's also possible that he was scum, and so, you're scum. You've inherited his votes. What are your thoughts on the game so far?

[niltiacjoan]

After my coin-flip thing decided not to work, I decided to just leave it since I couldn't use my own brain to figure out who was scummier.
You're right about the wagon thing. xD I think it's just my personality. I am REALLY indecisive IRL, I don't like to make decisions unless I absolutely have to and I'm sure I've chosen the "right" one.
I'll try to make a conscious effort not to let that get the better of me here, and actually vote at some point.
I've thought of something else I overlooked in my re-read, and I think PWIRL was probably the scummier of the two, but I'd rather not put Alvin at -1.

So, I think I'll go with an

FOS: alvinz95

for now.

[Rosso Carne]

You ignored my post rather elegantly Rosso.

i did didnt i?

simply stated, i found something that was blatantly anti-town, i jam it down the throats of that person, and i get attacked for me.

im narrow minded. thats why im the best. i found a target and ran with it, you cant blame me for it. theres no possible rationale of why people would have voted me for attacking someone who did something scummy. thats simply not scummy, in fact is basically the opposite of scummy.

wizzy/al screwed up and im calling him on it. no biggie, i just want him lynched.

[Battousai]

I don't see a problem with that rosso, but from my perspective. He did something scummy by taking a random vote to L-1, so you take him to L-1 leaving no room for discussion if scum took that vote to lynch.

[Rosso Carne]

the point is that when that happens, theres no room for discussion, as the partner has the wiggle room to distance big time. then instead of starting fresh day 2 theres unhelpful bias.

[ting =)]

*sigh. We've covered this. Honestly, let's just lynch someone. We'll be able to get a better read on everyone based on whether they voted for or against it. I'd transfer my vote to alvin, just to get a lynch already, but he hasn't said anything yet, and I don't think that'd be very fair.

[bird1111]

alvinz95 prodded.

[Battousai]

Why are you in such a big hurry ting? To me, that is a tell you are waiting for night so you can do your actions, either your pro town power role or scum.

FOS: ting

Almost forgot I had a vote still on Sir Tornado. I just voted you to see if I you were lurking.

UNVOTE

Since I do not see the logic in Rosso's defense of attacking PWIRL/Alvin/Replacement, I will vote now

VOTE: Rosso

[Rosso Carne]

dont understand how you can attack me BECAUSE i attack a scummy person.

[alvinz95]

hey rosso, i'm replacing in this game! bird, i didn't get the role pm yet.

[alvinz95]

Sorry guys for not posting! I usually forget to check my inbox.

YES
YES
FUCKING YES I DID THAT!

What Wizkid did was ABSOUTELY ABSOLUTELY ABSOLUTELY UNHELPFUL TO THE TOWN!

Know what that makes him?

FUCKING SCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GODDAMNIT I FEEL LIKE LEWIS BLACK AT A KKK CONVENTION!!!

When you find scum, you lynch them, and when scum do something that blatantly scummy, YOU NEED TO LYNCH THEM AS FAST AS POSSIBLE SO THEIR PARTNER CANT DISTANCE!!!!

Welcome to mafia, hard truth, and if this game is lost because wizzy made a screw up move as a townie, then you all lynch me then thats life, but I assure you, what I'm doing is not scummy. Aggression is NOT SCUMMY!!!

I WANT THE SCUM DEAD! I WANT THE SCUM DEAD! I WANT THE SCUM DEAD!!!

HOW HARD IS THIS??????

Looks like Rosso, you're trying to hard there. Scummy.

[alvinz95]

Welcome alvinz95. You've replaced into a pretty awkward situation, so I hope you can contribute something. If you're town, remember that you can win even if we lynch you, so try to help out as much as you can while you're around.

yes i can see that. Seems like everyone's against me. Lol. Looks like i'm dead soon anyway.