[CHALLENGE] August Challenge (small update)

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:56 am

Post by popsofctown »

In post 74, Something_Smart wrote:Inventor by default hands out 1-shot powers.
I didn't know this.
Besides, there's no reason to make it "activated" if players are always just gonna use it every night. Would be worth clarifying if you get a chance though, NK15.
This is not true because a. There's a 1 night delay on how quickly the power takes effect, assuming inventor resolves before nightkill b. the scum can't multiact but VT and Vig are unencumbered by the role and that's part of the balance. c. If you are 100% so scummy you will be lynched tomorrow as town it is actually antitown to activate the BP. It acts like a govern, then.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
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"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:56 pm

Post by northsidegal »

In post 72, Something_Smart wrote:If the dog is hit it will never be passed which essentially creates a bulletproof IC, which is meh.
(just want to say that part of the reason that i wanted to name it "double bluff" is because i still think that even if the dog was hit once the player might try to pass it and WIFOM scum)
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:56 am

Post by OkaPoka »

I think my submission is invalid
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:04 am

Post by Something_Smart »

In post 76, northsidegal wrote:
In post 72, Something_Smart wrote:If the dog is hit it will never be passed which essentially creates a bulletproof IC, which is meh.
(just want to say that part of the reason that i wanted to name it "double bluff" is because i still think that even if the dog was hit once the player might try to pass it and WIFOM scum)
Right. But that seems like a bad play because scum have nothing to lose by hitting the dogged player a second time right before LYLO, unless they have a bunch of people they really want gone. (But if they do, it's more likely that one of them did get the dog, making the verification shot more useful.)
In post 77, OkaPoka wrote:I think my submission is invalid
How come? It has 6 players, none of the barred mechanics, and a non-standard wincon in the form of the GF.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:39 am

Post by popsofctown »

In post 78, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 76, northsidegal wrote:
In post 72, Something_Smart wrote:If the dog is hit it will never be passed which essentially creates a bulletproof IC, which is meh.
(just want to say that part of the reason that i wanted to name it "double bluff" is because i still think that even if the dog was hit once the player might try to pass it and WIFOM scum)
Right. But that seems like a bad play because scum have nothing to lose by hitting the dogged player a second time right before LYLO, unless they have a bunch of people they really want gone.
That just makes it the most weakly positioned goblet of wine, but it's therefore necessarily still a valid choice.

Doesn't seem relevant enough to namesake the setup.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:41 am

Post by Not Known 15 »

In post 74, Something_Smart wrote:Inventor by default hands out 1-shot powers. Besides, there's no reason to make it "activated" if players are always just gonna use it every night. Would be worth clarifying if you get a chance though, NK15.
Yes, as standard, the inventor hands out 1-shot abilities. In this case, 1-shot Activated Bulletproof. And it will not always be used the next night; if the Vig claims then you'd probably not use it if you aren't the vig and don't think that you'll be vigged.
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:19 am

Post by Not Known 15 »

1. Shoot me - You know... even if the vig is revealed Day 1 it still kills someone, and it resolves mainly as a 7p with an IC, either with 1 or 2 mafia, not too bad for the most powerful role messing up...
2.Careful who you kill - reasonable. Those who are to be killed have a "be killed" wincon.
3. Guard Dog - Interesting idea with some flaws.
4. Greedy Inventors - is a bit too luck-dependant.
5.Cyan Flag - too small. Heavily dependant on luck.
6.Evil of the Mob - Something Smart got it right.
7. Dayvigs and Godfathers - Boring mechanic that will be exploited in the same way all the time. The scummiest town will be the IC. That's a big no for me.
8. War Zone - too swingy. Either Mafia avoids the bomb and town triggers it or... not. Also, bulletproof IC. Nothing prevents the bomb from claiming D1 and getting the gun, driving all the lynches while knowing the identity of the inventor for Night 2. And that's a horrible gameplay experience.
9. Bad multiball setup - bad multiball setup. Problems are obvious.
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:14 am

Post by mith »

Sorry all, work trip, forgot all about this. I’ll vote tomorrow and calculate results.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:45 am

Post by TemporalLich »

Dayvigs and Godfathers [Oka] - Swingy as all hell, but perfect for marathon. Someone should run this next marathon.
Careful Who You Kill [CfJ] - An interesting setup with an interesting unjester PR. Like the 1:1:1 resolution myself too.
Greedy Inventors [Jingle] - Seems like a fun three night blitz setup.
Guard Dog 10p [nsg] - I like the power role idea in this setup. The Informed doesn't help too much but it is needed for challenge purposes. There's not much here though.
Cyan Flag [TL] - I may revise this setup. The challenge restrictions were not helpful on the setup.
Evil of the Mob [pops] - It's a setup. I am hard nulling this.
Shoot Me [NK15] - ehh... not feeling this setup mainly due to the wincons being confusing.
War Zone [S_S] - We're reaching swing levels that would make even Grand Idea afraid.
# [NMSA] - This setup doesn't qualify as a setup, but still qualifies for the challenge.
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:53 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Careful Who You Kill
(me): This was originally a bit of a throwaway setup, designed to try to meet the (fairly onerous) restrictions, but it's growing on me as time goes on. One nice feature is that it should be roughly self-balancing, because the Unjesters don't want the game to end too early.
Dayvigs and Godfathers
(OkaPoka): I am very suspicious of mechanics in which the first player to claim something gets it; it needs a lot of discipline from the players to not massively scumside the game due to townies doing it against wincon. I do think the setup otherwise works, though. It might be possible to replace the dayvigging with something else (e.g. hammering) to create the same effect without having to trust the players as much. [Also, there's debate about whether this fits the restrictions, but I'll let mith rule on that.]
Guard Dog 10p
(northsidegal): I like the way the setup fundamentally wants to be on evens (unlike most of the setups here which are somewhat tortured to fit that). That said, I think the guard dog is somewhat likely to end up never triggering; its main benefit to town is the way that scum will have to play around it, and I'm not sure that's enough to balance an 8:2. It might be, though!
Greedy Inventors
(Jingle): I like the basic idea behind this, but don't like the details much: given that scum get no power role usage until N3 and have a Flagbearer, it seems like this game is likely to be decided early by dayplay, before the mechanics really kick in. The weirdest thing about the setup is that town have the prospect of losing almost instantly by mislynching twice, but get a huge advantage if that doesn't happen, meaning that a) a no-lynch might be correct and b) if it isn't, the Doctor invention is probably the best one to use first, which is just crazy.
War Zone
(Something_Smart): This almost works, but there's a town breaking strategy: Bomb claims, Inventor gives them a kill. The resulting setup ends up somewhat townsided (and also a lot less swingy than the setup looks at first glance).
Shoot Me
(Not Known 15): This seems considerably more townsided than the 6 VT + Vig + 2 scum setup, which we currently have no reason to believe is unbalanced. So I think this setup is likely to be somewhat townsided, in addition to being more complex than it really needs to be.
The Evil of the Mob
(popsofctown): This is basically "players on lynch wagons lose their vote the next day", which is decent as a starting point for a mechanic, but then goes off the rails (players who can be online first getting doublevotes, the scum autowin when town mislynch each other, a power role that no townie knows about and hardly does anything). I also have a suspicion it's scumsided, but the mechanics would need to be sorted out before the balance could be. It's quite possible the restrictions got in the way of this one.
Cyan Flag
(TemporalLich): As written, broken by N1 no-kill if the day 1 lynch is on a townie (who then survives), unless town then no-lynch to cancel it out. So this setup is highly likely to end up in a happily-ever-after situation, which doesn't seem ideal.
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:06 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:10 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

i think nsg's setup would be better with an odd number of players but thats against the guidelines but nsg if u were to run it i think id prefer it that way
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:29 pm

Post by northsidegal »

are we doing a different voting system than the condorcet pairwise thing or did everyone just decide to rank things in order?
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:29 am

Post by mith »

Cyan Flag (TemporalLich) - May come back and work out an EV for this one. It seems ok?

Careful Who You Kill (callforjudgement) - This should be more similar to 2:6, with the bombs soaking some of the kills? The bombs also throw off any claim reliability. Probably a bit of a random mess for my tastes, but I doubt the balance is too far off.

Greedy Inventors (Jingle) - I'm going back and forth on balance; without the inventions, it's pretty scumsided - town basically has two chances to hit the Godfather, I'd guess at an EV around 1/3? But the inventions investigating have a good chance of catching the Godfather, and if they hit the scum inventor before he can give the Godfather something they have a chance at hitting the invention wincon. No idea, but relatively interesting.

The Evil of the Mob (popsofctown) - The Incorrigible Youth seems a little irrelevant. The Mafia would rather a VT be lynched while they are off wagon than the IY, but aren't going to have a whole lot of say since they are off wagon and getting the IY lynched like that doesn't exactly hurt them. I don't hate this setup though, the mislynch mechanic could be interesting.

Guard Dog 10p aka Double Bluff (northsidegal) - Seems roughly 2:8 with an unkillable IC. Probably not terrible balance if the dog owner claims immediately and then plays mindgames with scum on when ownership is transfered. The second dog owner, if town, may get a missed kill to restore parity.

Shoot Me (Not Known 15) - Almost certainly town-sided? 2:6 with a Vig is already above 50% EV if the Vig is IC (from my previous estimates on this), so I highly doubt 2:8 with a normal Vig is lower than 50%, never mind that the inventor can also claim. The ascetic modifier is pretty minor here, and inventor ability will be mostly neutral to EV. Hard to say how townsided, might still be fine to play.

War Zone (Something_Smart) - Bulletproof Bomb should claim immediately. Mafia can counter, and almost certainly should (otherwise the inventor can make the Bomb a 1-shot Vig, and that's almost a guaranteed win). In fact, inventor can *still* give the 1-shot Vig to one of the claims, and the real bomb can safely shoot the counter and otherwise the fake claim is revealed day 3. In the former case, town will win well over 50% and in the later they get two shots at the other scum (45%?), so definitely town-sided.

Dayvigs and Godfathers (OkaPoka) - We settled on this being townsided, and also questionable whether it meets the requirements. It's a neat idea otherwise.

Untitled (NotMySpamAccount) - The first setup posted is broken and ambiguous, the second is not my type of setup and doesn't meet the requirements.
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:49 am

Post by TemporalLich »

I need to rework Cyan Flag...

Too luck based and swingy for a setup where "guessing the nightkill" is intended to be the Cyan Flag win.

I may have to change it to Azure Flag, where a successful doc grants one layer of linked deathproof (but the doc is linked DP)
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:12 am

Post by mith »

Results:

7-0-1 - OkaPoka
4-0-4 - callforjudgement
6-2-0 - northsidegal
3-3-2 - NotKnown15, Jingle
3-4-1 - TemporalLich
2-3-3 - Something_Smart
1-6-1 - popsofctown
0-8-0 - NotMySpamAccount

I'll leave it to OkaPoka as to whether he wants to claim the win. If not, cfj wins the tiebreak over nsg with a head-to-head win.
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:16 am

Post by OkaPoka »

as much as i like my setup

i think it breaks the combination rule thing and i dont want to set bad precedents of getting into gray areas

ill run it in marathons tho
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:02 am

Post by Something_Smart »

I mean, the combination rule ban was a bad rule imo for inviting gray areas. It's not your fault, you made a good setup, you should be rewarded for it.

It would be trivial to rewrite your setup in a way that clearly didn't violate it-- for instance instead of dayvig deactivators just call them "conditional 1-shot dayvigs." Conditional's clearly a modifier, not a role.
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:54 am

Post by popsofctown »

The last time northsidegal got to pick setup requirements things got so out of hand I started moderating mafia games

I find it too fearful to contemplate what might happen were she given that power again
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:50 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Do people want me to try to work on requirements for September?
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:51 am

Post by Jingle »

Do it.
This is a Parachute.
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:03 am

Post by northsidegal »

go for it
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:05 am

Post by northsidegal »

In post 93, popsofctown wrote:The last time northsidegal got to pick setup requirements things got so out of hand I started moderating mafia games

I find it too fearful to contemplate what might happen were she given that power again
next set of criteria i make will fix the mafiascum economy

game supply will equal demand, queues will never be empty nor stagnant, gold shall rain from the sky
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:19 am

Post by popsofctown »

cfj trick everyone into redesigning Role Call mafia
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:30 am

Post by callforjudgement »

scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town

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