Mafia 83 - Game Ended Scum Win!


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Post Post #750 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:19 pm

Post by Yaw »

Good job pulling that off, Bionic!

Overall, not badly played, with the exception of killa seven's lurking and alvinz claiming scum on day 2 (seriously, what the hell was that?) I kind of hate dying early to someone who's not even bothering to play, but such is Mafia sometimes.

SSK -- The setup looks to be pretty good here (from what I've seen so far), but there are some
serious
modding issues you need to work on. I'm listing a bunch of the ones I've noticed in the hopes you'll look at this as an opportunity for improvement. I think I speak for most of the players here in saying that these led to some big frustrations that were entirely unnecessary. I believe you'll find that fixing these problems will lead to better running of future games, and less friction with your players (as well as making it easier to find replacements).

1) Vote counts. Yes, I know I requested they be posted rather than edited at the beginning of the game, which you weren't in favour of. That said, regardless of the method used, vote counts absolutely must be done in a manner that is timely, and they must be as accurate as possible. Yours were neither. What this means is that you should be aiming to get a vote count on each page (where possible -- sometimes the game goes too fast for this) regardless of where it is on the page. Vote counts should be accurate up to the point where the vote count occurs (so none of that stuff like in your mini, where you edited in a vote count at the top of the page and stated it was correct to something like post 63 -- it's confusing for players to read). Also, watch the accuracy -- many of your vote counts had errors. I personally use the strategy of placing all the players in a "Not Voting" list, and then cut/pasting the names into different slots as they vote. It doesn't solve all problems, but it does ensure that you will never have anybody double-voting.

2) Away time. Yes, people get busy. No, I'm not blaming you for getting busy. But when you do get busy, at least PM your backup to let them know. There's no shame in relying on a backup when it's needed. I've done it before.

3) Replacements part 1. There's a few here. First of all, you have to be careful that nobody can read player roles from night choices (or the lack thereof). Reclusion should have been temporarily replaced when she requested it. Not doing that potentially lets players determine whether or not she had a night choice based on whether or not she was around to make it. Not what you want. Also, be up front about who you're replacing when you start looking for replacements. I don't think I was the only one confused when you said you were looking for a replacement for Reclusion, then had Panzer replacing Netman (who you didn't say was being replaced at all).

4) Replacements part 2. The small text on the front page has to stop. Players need to be able to read what player replaced whom at a glance. They shouldn't have to highlight your text and paste it somewhere else to do so. It's completely unnecessary and annoying. (It's also less work for you not to use tags to make the text small, so it saves you a bit of work.)

5) Replacements part 3. With respect to Panzer replacing in, there were a number of issues. First of all, you should always, no questions asked, give replacements their predecessor's night choices when they receive their role. The expectation is that they should have this information, because they're becoming the same person. Second, you have to make clear when a player replaced in. Panzer replaced during Night 1, which means he made all the night choices. But your post saying he replaced came several posts after the morning post, which implied that he wasn't in the game during the night at all. These two points combined meant that when Panzer claimed, you were
telling the players that he lied about his claim
, which is what got him lynched. Mods should
never
put themselves into a position where they are contributing to a player lynch, and this could have been prevented by seeing what was going on in thread, and correcting the record.

There are probably other things I'm forgetting, but those are the main points. Again, I'm posting this in the hope you'll take this as practical advice on how to improve your modding in the future.
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Post Post #751 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:34 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

gg all. will post thoughts when I am not postng from my phone. The pace of the game favored scum.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #752 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:07 pm

Post by MafiaSSK »

hasdgfas wrote: Now, my complaints.

The modding in this game was absolutely horrible.

The first thing is that in the first post, I can't tell who replaced whom, and that is extremely important in the game, to remember who is for whom.
I thought it made it neater the way I did it.
Next, you changed Rule 14 to say that you would post votecounts when asked, yet later you decided to say that we "still need one more for a vote count". What, exactly, was that supposed to be?

Vote counts day 1 were all right, but we got all of 1 vote count the rest of the game from you, which is completely unacceptable for a mod.
Felt the need for two votes for that votecount.
Next, not giving replacers what their predecessor has done is terrible. Almost everyone will ask for it, so why not give it to them anyway?
Had no actions. Plus, people should ask.
Why did you ask whether or not to modkill? That's supposed to be a mod decision. Always look for a replacement first.
It can effect the game greatly.
When you were searching for a replacement for Reclusion, you didn't post in the Replacements Thread. How are we supposed to believe that you were searching for a replacement when you didn't post in a place specifically for that?
I did.
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Okay. Fine I'll change the dealdine around next time.
You just disappeared and had the backup mod take over for a bit, then showed back up, and still made the backup post a vote count. I thought you had forgotten about this game, in all honesty.
I DIDNT HAVE FUCKING TIME.
I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting, but I was really angry about this modding for the entire game, because it ruined what could have been a good game. I stopped caring partway through, because it seemed like the mod didn't care, and if he doesn't care about his own game, why should I?
Yeah. I did mod horribly though.
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Post Post #753 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:13 pm

Post by MafiaSSK »

Yaw wrote:
SSK -- The setup looks to be pretty good here (from what I've seen so far), but there are some
serious
modding issues you need to work on. I'm listing a bunch of the ones I've noticed in the hopes you'll look at this as an opportunity for improvement. I think I speak for most of the players here in saying that these led to some big frustrations that were entirely unnecessary. I believe you'll find that fixing these problems will lead to better running of future games, and less friction with your players (as well as making it easier to find replacements).
Kay fine.
1) Vote counts. Yes, I know I requested they be posted rather than edited at the beginning of the game, which you weren't in favour of. That said, regardless of the method used, vote counts absolutely must be done in a manner that is timely, and they must be as accurate as possible. Yours were neither. What this means is that you should be aiming to get a vote count on each page (where possible -- sometimes the game goes too fast for this) regardless of where it is on the page. Vote counts should be accurate up to the point where the vote count occurs (so none of that stuff like in your mini, where you edited in a vote count at the top of the page and stated it was correct to something like post 63 -- it's confusing for players to read). Also, watch the accuracy -- many of your vote counts had errors. I personally use the strategy of placing all the players in a "Not Voting" list, and then cut/pasting the names into different slots as they vote. It doesn't solve all problems, but it does ensure that you will never have anybody double-voting.
Attempted to do this time but couldn't do it with two games going on and a shitload of other games I was playing in. See 614 for where I did post a vote count every page.
2) Away time. Yes, people get busy. No, I'm not blaming you for getting busy. But when you do get busy, at least PM your backup to let them know. There's no shame in relying on a backup when it's needed. I've done it before.
Reyo seemed to be inactive from the sites.
3) Replacements part 1. There's a few here. First of all, you have to be careful that nobody can read player roles from night choices (or the lack thereof). Reclusion should have been temporarily replaced when she requested it. Not doing that potentially lets players determine whether or not she had a night choice based on whether or not she was around to make it. Not what you want. Also, be up front about who you're replacing when you start looking for replacements. I don't think I was the only one confused when you said you were looking for a replacement for Reclusion, then had Panzer replacing Netman (who you didn't say was being replaced at all).
I couldn't find a replacment. I contacted several people all of which couldn't replace in. And yes I will tell who I replace from now on.
4) Replacements part 2. The small text on the front page has to stop. Players need to be able to read what player replaced whom at a glance. They shouldn't have to highlight your text and paste it somewhere else to do so. It's completely unnecessary and annoying. (It's also less work for you not to use tags to make the text small, so it saves you a bit of work.)
Kay. I'll make the person they replaced bigger and make the front page look messy. Fine.
5) Replacements part 3. With respect to Panzer replacing in, there were a number of issues. First of all, you should always, no questions asked, give replacements their predecessor's night choices when they receive their role. The expectation is that they should have this information, because they're becoming the same person. Second, you have to make clear when a player replaced in. Panzer replaced during Night 1, which means he made all the night choices. But your post saying he replaced came several posts after the morning post, which implied that he wasn't in the game during the night at all. These two points combined meant that when Panzer claimed, you were
telling the players that he lied about his claim
, which is what got him lynched. Mods should
never
put themselves into a position where they are contributing to a player lynch, and this could have been prevented by seeing what was going on in thread, and correcting the record.
Bad timing on my part. Wrote flavor then had to go. When I came back I posted Panzer had been replaced.
There are probably other things I'm forgetting, but those are the main points. Again, I'm posting this in the hope you'll take this as practical advice on how to improve your modding in the future.
I will.
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Post Post #754 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:03 pm

Post by Jebus »

Well done, bionic. Had me fooled, thinking hascow was scum as I did all along.

Called Yaw out, though xD
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Post Post #755 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:27 pm

Post by qwints »

Congrats bionic. You played quite well. I think I was a little too offended by Hascow going after me so hard after the claim.

mafiassk, my only problem with the job you did was the handling of the question about Pazner's night actions. That and alvinz's stupidity significantly hurt the town's chances.
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Post Post #756 (ISO) » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:08 pm

Post by Lawrencelot »

Ack, didn't expect that. Good job bio.
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Post Post #757 (ISO) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:05 am

Post by hasdgfas »

qwints wrote:I think I was a little too offended by Hascow going after me so hard after the claim.
Yeah, well, I really didn't like the claim. And it is really hard when someone's attacking you. Trust me, I know. You just have to think about where they're coming from and whether they seem to have the town's best interest in mind. It's very hard to do, as I found out here by completely misreading bionic, but it's important to remember that not everyone knows your alignment.
jdodge1019: hasjghsalghsakljghs is from vermont
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Post Post #758 (ISO) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:03 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Some thoughts (but not many).

- I think the free panz lynch had a big impact on the game
- As I said, the pace of the game favored scum. 6 game days and only 31 pages is pretty light.
- I still don't like SKs, but that is just a personal preference
- Xtoxm's self-hammer was a big factor IMO. It cut off any chance for either of the 2 other players to vote or express any opinion of xtoxm leaving me as the only alive player who was on xtoxm for any extended period of time since he as always listed as one of my top suspects.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #759 (ISO) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:09 am

Post by qwints »

I'm still a little shocked that there were 2 scum on a scum lynch on D5. I actually read xtoxm's hammer as him saving hascow from having to bus him.

Did anyone besides xtoxm vote you bionic? Or even FOS you? I don't think anyone had any suspicion that you were scum.
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Post Post #760 (ISO) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:06 am

Post by Yaw »

Jebus wrote:Called Yaw out, though xD
Sure, but could you have made a case for it that would have stood up to scrutiny?

I don't like dying early, but I'm not too disappointed with my play. I didn't get lynched, and nobody could connect me to either of my scum buddies. As far as I'm concerned, that's mission accomplished. Sure, I'd prefer to die to a SK that was actually putting in an effort to play the game, but we can't have everything.
bionicchop2 wrote:As I said, the pace of the game favored scum. 6 game days and only 31 pages is pretty light.
I didn't really mind the pace, in terms of days and pages. Around 30-50 pages is a good size -- it's long enough that there's enough information for town to look through, and short enough that reading through the game isn't a huge chore. I think the town was hurt more by the number of lurkers early (killa seven, Netman, alvinz to name a few), which inhibited information gathering.
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Post Post #761 (ISO) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:16 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Yeah, I guess maybe the end length of the game isn't the main indicator. While I was playing though, I could generally go 2-3 days without posting and still look like one of the most active players.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #762 (ISO) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:28 pm

Post by Xtoxm »

Well done Bio nice one! :)
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you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst
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Post Post #763 (ISO) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:07 pm

Post by hasdgfas »

bionicchop2 wrote:Yeah, I guess maybe the end length of the game isn't the main indicator.
It's definitely not the main indicator. I've read old games that were 9 pages long and ended in town winning, so it's more the quality of information than the quantity. I think people are getting too cautious and saying "long days help the town" as opposed to "better information helps the town"
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jdodge1019: vermont is made of liberal freaks and cows
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Post Post #764 (ISO) » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:56 am

Post by killa seven »

booo i knew xotm was scum,bastard.
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Mini 545 as town.
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mini 618 as scum.
Mushroom Kingdom as town.
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mini 642 bodyguard 7 as town
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Post Post #765 (ISO) » Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:43 am

Post by Xtoxm »

Heh. :P

I knew you were SK too, wastrying to avoid getting you lynched.

Only hammered like that cos I was scum.

And with the self-hammer, what I was hoping it would look like was me saying "Ok, Bio is town, and I can't see him being mislynched, so i'm protecting one of the other's".
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Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst
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Post Post #766 (ISO) » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:11 am

Post by Reclusion »

Bah. Sorry for flaking, peeps. I didn't realize how busy I would come once I joined this game and then I tried to get into it but became even more busy and... yeah.

FTR, now that I've logged on for the first time in awhile, I noticed I never got any prods from the mod or anything, and I was a bit miffed when my temporary replacement request was never properly handled by the mod. But yeah, the set-up looked pretty neat, and I was happy to be a one-way mason. Looking at the player list, I had an off feeling about Yaw from early on that I never got a chance to elaborate on but Mana_Ku never really pinged my scumdar. Xtoxm felt a bit weird early on as well.

Meh. Again, apologies to all for flaking like that.
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Post Post #767 (ISO) » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:17 am

Post by Yaw »

For the record, I was being sincere when I said I was impressed with the way you were playing, Reclusion. Had I survived much longer I knew I'd have to nightkill you at some point because I couldn't see a way to get you lynched, and I wasn't convinced I could snow you for a full game. Was very sorry to see you go, and hope things die down enough that you can play more in the future.
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Post Post #768 (ISO) » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:01 pm

Post by Xtoxm »

Btw:

http://www.quicktopic.com/42/H/M9ySvv9rmx2wu

I so nearly posted the link to an ongoing game's scum talk by accident :s
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Post Post #769 (ISO) » Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:41 pm

Post by qwints »

Xtoxm wrote: And with the self-hammer, what I was hoping it would look like was me saying "Ok, Bio is town, and I can't see him being mislynched, so i'm protecting one of the other's".
Fooled me. :oops:
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Post Post #770 (ISO) » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:17 pm

Post by alvinz95 »

Why am I banned from you're games?

Why did people buy my "scum" claim?
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Post Post #771 (ISO) » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:29 pm

Post by Yaw »

Better question: Why did you claim scum? Even jokingly?
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Post Post #772 (ISO) » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:29 pm

Post by hasdgfas »

alvinz95 wrote:Why am I banned from you're games?

Why did people buy my "scum" claim?
if you claim scum, you should immediately be lynched. No matter what. Nobody should trust anything you say ever once you claim scum.
jdodge1019: hasjghsalghsakljghs is from vermont
jdodge1019: vermont is made of liberal freaks and cows
jdodge1019: he's not a liberal
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Post Post #773 (ISO) » Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:16 am

Post by XReyoX »

Thank you all for playing.
Now that this is finally over, I will truely depart from the site.

Have Fun and WISH YOU ALL A HAPPY XMAS!

Reyo.
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Post Post #774 (ISO) » Sun May 10, 2009 12:01 pm

Post by EmpTyger »

Nature provides a last post to every rule.

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