Mini 1346: Flavorless Mafia - GAME OVER


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Post Post #975 (ISO) » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:58 am

Post by Kublai Khan »

Tammy wrote:
In post 969, Kublai Khan wrote:

So, Tammy opens with a "*emotion* Damn a town PR died".


That's not what I said at all, KK. Like, really don't know where you got that interpretation. If you remember I spent the majority of yesterday paranoid that Rainbowdash wasn't the town cop and apparently made myself look pretty stupid in the process. Rainbowdash's death and flip confirmed that I was wrong. I was acknowledging that.

But what reason does it serve to acknowledge that?

In post 973, Slaxx wrote:There's nothing town about Jun's reaction.

Says the guy that made the opposite reaction, so that's a little self-serving.
-------
Hrm. I've been on Slaxx and Tammy all game. I'm not dead, but the mass claim means that scum were limited to eliminating power roles. Except they weren't, though. They have a roleblocker, which means that they could have easily blocked Rainbowdash again and killed someone else. However, Rainbowdash was confirmed-town to everyone (except Tammy) so his death was probably just the removal of an unlynchable town role. So, same difference.

At this point I want to reach into the dead thread and slap Ellibereth. The mass claim only served to help scum and make our power roles completely ineffectual. He's deprived us of the easy game where a cop claims at this point with some results and wins the game. So now we gotta play the hard game and analyze everything.

I don't want the game to die so I'm going to set a deadline of later tonight (~1am est or so) to post some analysis.
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Post Post #976 (ISO) » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:20 am

Post by roflcopter »

ugh ended up trapped in the airport overnight. fuck you united airlines. continental was way better before this stupid merger.
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Post Post #977 (ISO) » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:25 am

Post by Tammy »

In post 975, Kublai Khan wrote:
Tammy wrote:
In post 969, Kublai Khan wrote:

So, Tammy opens with a "*emotion* Damn a town PR died".


That's not what I said at all, KK. Like, really don't know where you got that interpretation. If you remember I spent the majority of yesterday paranoid that Rainbowdash wasn't the town cop and apparently made myself look pretty stupid in the process. Rainbowdash's death and flip confirmed that I was wrong. I was acknowledging that.

But what reason does it serve to acknowledge that?


Why not acknowledge it? Even though it made sense due to balance and I told you that the team mafia thread discussion helped me understand and rid me of paranoia, there was still a little bit of doubt. I was wrong to be paranoid; I was admitting I was wrong.

KK wrote:
-------
Hrm. I've been on Slaxx and Tammy all game. I'm not dead, but the mass claim means that scum were limited to eliminating power roles. Except they weren't, though. They have a roleblocker, which means that they could have easily blocked Rainbowdash again and killed someone else. However, Rainbowdash was confirmed-town to everyone (except Tammy) so his death was probably just the removal of an unlynchable town role. So, same difference.

At this point I want to reach into the dead thread and slap Ellibereth. The mass claim only served to help scum and make our power roles completely ineffectual. He's deprived us of the easy game where a cop claims at this point with some results and wins the game. So now we gotta play the hard game and analyze everything.

I don't want the game to die so I'm going to set a deadline of later tonight (~1am est or so) to post some analysis.


I agree with this that Rainbowdash wasn't necessarily the obvious kill since they had a roleblocker. In Closed Normal we left Porochaz alive because we could roleblock him and kill other people, so it served a purpose for us. I don't know what purpose if would have served to keep Rainbowdash alive though, unless he was completely on the wrong track and would have served the mafia's cause better alive. Although who knows, he probably was the only smart death due to the questions that would have been raised if he did live.

I probably won't be able to do anything with this game really until tomorrow as I won't have a chance to read through the thread again before then.
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Post Post #978 (ISO) » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:44 am

Post by Junpei »

Alright, first off, I've posted this a few times on this site, but just to make it explicit in this game:

V/LA (no access) July 25-29


Slaxx:

who is scum if KK is town?

explain how it is you saw farside as scum with DLG (now tammy) but had the scum team as KK/farside? Will you ever explain why it is you have excuses for day 1 on why you never voted that were false?

why is farside not commenting on the massclaim suspicious?
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Post Post #979 (ISO) » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:04 pm

Post by Slaxx »

WELL since I think Tammy is town and if KK was to be town....Idk, I'm still debating between me, you, and rofl.

No, seriously.

Also, I think I answered that.

I had Farside as a possible partner of DLG, as in, hey, if Farside were to flip scum, I wouldn't count them out like I would, say, Psyche/Rofl.

What does that second question says.

Because its an important component of how the game played out and avoidance of any topic in a game doesn't exactly net you townpoints.
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Post Post #980 (ISO) » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:39 pm

Post by roflcopter »

now that i'm safely away from air travel hell i am going to read the thread in the next day or so and tell you who the scum is
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Post Post #981 (ISO) » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:59 am

Post by Junpei »

Slaxx could you reformat that post because I don't know what questions it's addressing.
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Post Post #982 (ISO) » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:39 am

Post by roflcopter »

ok so when i said "the next day or so" i didn't realize just how wordy this thread was. i'm working on it, it'll be done as soon as possible, but my free time is fairly limited through the weekend as i'm at a big fat family function.
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Post Post #983 (ISO) » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:09 pm

Post by Tammy »

I'm going to try to do some stuff on this this weekend, maybe tomorrow, but probably not tonight. (If I do, it will be late, and I can't guarantee that it will make a lot of sense...fair warning.)

Not a lot of things have shifted for me though. roflcopter is a complete unknown and I don't like that he just came in and was like gogo farside go, so some of this will be put off until I can see what he provides when not just sheeping someone upon arrival.

Also, interested in KK's analysis.
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Post Post #984 (ISO) » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:45 am

Post by Junpei »

Anyone plan on doing anything?.... Unless the
Mod will grant a deadline extension due to my V/LA?
then I'm gone till deadline in a few days so it'd be a good time to discuss now rather than later.
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Post Post #985 (ISO) » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:50 pm

Post by Kublai Khan »

I meant to have some analysis done, but I had some plumbing problems and I've been digging a trench in my backyard to replace the sewer pipe so I;m a little drained. Also, please excuse the stream-of-conciousness style nature of this post. LYLO is the time of the game where everything should be brought to the table. Since town has nothing but VTs, then that means all I can bring is my thoughts, unvarnished.

Now, I hate being in LYLO. I'm happy that I usually rarely get there since I start to get crippled by second guessing myself. Add to that, my two strongest scum-reads during the course of the game (Slaxx and Tammy) are still alive and are calling each other town. Which is the strongest position for scum to be in. If they are scum together, then by refusing to bus each other the pressure is on town to recognize each other's towniness. This is an effective strategy since if me, Junpei, and roflcopter are town, we are extremely fractured.

Of course, that's only one scenario, and an egotistical one at that. It would mean I haven't been wrong all course, just unconvincing. But it's a possible one.

The converse to that scenario is that I'm 100% wrong and the scum-team is Junpei and roflcopter. Which I have a hard-time seeing. First, Psyche's opening strategy was extremely town. I mean, I know it's possible for scum to fake such a gambit, but (and no offense meant) I just don't think that Psyche is experienced and skilled enough to have faked it as scum. Plus if he were scum and pulled off a successful early gambit that put him on everyone's town list, it's extremely unlikely that he would abandon the game. When you do something like that as scum, you stay in the game and see it through, if only for the bragging rights alone. So roflcopter isn't scum despite the fact that he's been really unimpressive since replacing back in.

Now Junpei... Junpei is the wildcard for me. If I'm wrong about one of {Slaxx, Tammy} then he's the scum partner. He's been tunnelled on me all game. Now I recognize that being wrong isn't a scumtell in itself, but as weird as this sounds he hasn't been too convincing about it. Lots of "We should lynch Kublai Khan!" yelling and "look at that! he's scum!" confirmation bias. But not much substance. I have to scroll way back in his iso to even find his case on me. And it's a pretty poor case considering ow much I've posted. Now, it's possible that he's just laziness, but laziness isn't a personality quirk that I would assign to Junpei. So scummy? Eh, a little. it's a weak point and the rest of his play has been pretty towny, so he remains a distant third suspect in my book.

So my thoughts remain with a Slaxx/Tammy scum-team. I'll start with Tammy.

First, this:
In post 977, Tammy wrote:Why not acknowledge it? Even though it made sense due to balance and I told you that the team mafia thread discussion helped me understand and rid me of paranoia, there was still a little bit of doubt. I was wrong to be paranoid; I was admitting I was wrong.

This encapsulates a lot of my problem with your play. It doesn't address my question and just adds fluff and misdirection to the game. You didn't have admit that you were wrong. I mean, it's a given that you were wrong since before Rainbowdash even died. There's no oevrall town-benefit to admitting wrongness so... uh, yeah. Plus there's zero reason to bring up Team Mafia as a source of paranoia since IIRC you were scum in TM. So where would the paranoia come from?

Actually that brings up the core reasoning behind why I think you're scum. When I read a game, I weigh an individual's play according to two categories: likely to come from town and likely to come from scum. Now mafia, by nature, is a game of paranoia. Every action has potential to have been committed by scum unless there is strong reason to think otherwise (see my read on Psyche/roflcopter, for example). So when someone is town, they need to actively commit town-tells to effective counter the paranoia of fellow town members.

Now I'm trying to take into account you're relative newness to the site/game, but it's not enough. You spammed the game from the onset. You reacted to pressure by OMGUSing and defended yourself by accusing me of "misrepping you and trying to get mislynches" which isn't a valid defense. If you are town, then the knowledge that you are a mislynch is known only to you and you'd know it's irrational to expect anyone to listen to you. So I can't figure out any town motivation for your defense, but I can figure scum motivation.

Slaxx.. Slaxx is just plain scum. I posted my case on Slaxx in and he never responded. Instead the game gets side-tracted by Tammy replacing in and Slaxx just lurked pretty hard the rest of the day Also, I really don't like the fact that he'd acknowledge that farside22 is town, yet refuse to address her case at all. It's write more but I don't need to. Slaxx is scum because it's self-evident.

I'm tired now. and I have to dig more tomorrow. I'm announcing my strong intentions to vote Slaxx. Le'ts kick-start some conversation.
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Post Post #986 (ISO) » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:13 pm

Post by Tammy »

In post 985, Kublai Khan wrote:
So my thoughts remain with a Slaxx/Tammy scum-team. I'll start with Tammy.

First, this:
In post 977, Tammy wrote:Why not acknowledge it? Even though it made sense due to balance and I told you that the team mafia thread discussion helped me understand and rid me of paranoia, there was still a little bit of doubt. I was wrong to be paranoid; I was admitting I was wrong.

This encapsulates a lot of my problem with your play. It doesn't address my question and just adds fluff and misdirection to the game. You didn't have admit that you were wrong. I mean, it's a given that you were wrong since before Rainbowdash even died. There's no oevrall town-benefit to admitting wrongness so... uh, yeah. Plus there's zero reason to bring up Team Mafia as a source of paranoia since IIRC you were scum in TM. So where would the paranoia come from?


You are misunderstanding me, which if you are town, I think is part of the problem. I have no problem admitting I was wrong, and if you look at my original post it was clear I was acknowledging my embarrassment at being extremely wrong about something that was obvious to everyone else. Also, I never said Team Mafia helped to instill my paranoia. I've used Team Mafia twice - Slaxx and I played in a game together in which I replaced in as scum. Him not using that to his advantage when I replaced in here is where I got my initial town read on Slaxx.

The second time, where it relates to the RainbowDash situation was the Team Mafia results thread in which the balance of the game I played in was brought up. It was following that discussion, in which in a 13 player game town had a back up role, a tracker, and a bodyguard. Scum had a roleblocker. In following the discussion on balance, I realized what everyone had already been saying - that the bodyguard is there to protect the town role. I then also remembered when GreyIce was asked why he didn't guard anyone night one, he said that the bodyguard exists to protect power roles. That's when it clicked and made sense that there would be a cop if there was a bodyguard here. It had nothing to do with the game itself or my alignment in the game, but the balance discussion which made things in this game more clear.

My paranoia was coming from someone who claimed town cop and L-1 and was being treated as confirmed town. I didn't pay attention to the bodyguard issue until it was pointed out to me, and it didnt' sink in until reading that discussion about balance. I suck at issues of balance and I rarely pay attention to roles that are claimed and even when I do usually forget people's claims.

I really wish that you would pay attention to what I actually state. If you did, I think you'd understand where I'm coming from and maybe you'd see why I think you're misrepping me. I think if you are town, and you read what I've actually posted, you'll see that I'm trying to figure out the game. I may not have the same mindset or approach that you have, but just because I'm different than you or react differently to things doesn't mean I'm scum.
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Post Post #987 (ISO) » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:03 pm

Post by Tammy »

Also, KK - what do you make of Slaxx looking through your predecessor's meta and urging me to look through it to in order to get me to see the likelihood of your being town? Usually when scum look through meta, they do it find stuff they can exploit, not to find things they can clear people with.

What would be his scum motivation for doing that? He could have very easily joined me and Junpei on your wagon yesterday and tried to talk Rainbowdash into voting you as well, but he didn't. He actually tried to convince me I was wrong about you.

Why would he do that as scum? As scum lynching you would have just been the same to him as lynching farside, would it not?
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Post Post #988 (ISO) » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:50 pm

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In post 984, Junpei wrote:Anyone plan on doing anything?.... Unless the
Mod will grant a deadline extension due to my V/LA?
then I'm gone till deadline in a few days so it'd be a good time to discuss now rather than later.


No.

This would be a vote count if there were votes.
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Post Post #989 (ISO) » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:40 pm

Post by roflcopter »

working on it. solving this thing with my brain takes time, and my cousins got me hammered tonight.
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Post Post #990 (ISO) » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:41 pm

Post by roflcopter »

noting jun's upcoming v/la, will be done in time for him to respond to anything that might come up
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Post Post #991 (ISO) » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:53 pm

Post by roflcopter »

finished post will happen in the am. sleep now. talk amongst yourselves.
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Post Post #992 (ISO) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:00 am

Post by Kublai Khan »

In post 986, Tammy wrote:My paranoia was coming from someone who claimed town cop and L-1 and was being treated as confirmed town. I didn't pay attention to the bodyguard issue until it was pointed out to me, and it didnt' sink in until reading that discussion about balance. I suck at issues of balance and I rarely pay attention to roles that are claimed and even when I do usually forget people's claims.

See, that's difficult for me to believe. Sucking at balancing is different from ignoring the fact that there was a mass claim. It wasn't a subtle mass claim either. You were distinctly told about it.

In general, scum hate confirmed town because it hurts them in LYLO situations and narrows their options. So the goal is either to discredit confirmed townies or eliminate (NK) them. From my POV, you tried to discredit Rainbowdash by questioning his claim. When that failed Rainbowdash was eliminated instead of RBed. It fits.

Tammy wrote:I really wish that you would pay attention to what I actually state. If you did, I think you'd understand where I'm coming from and maybe you'd see why I think you're misrepping me. I think if you are town, and you read what I've actually posted, you'll see that I'm trying to figure out the game. I may not have the same mindset or approach that you have, but just because I'm different than you or react differently to things doesn't mean I'm scum.

I've been ditch-digging for the past 3 days, so I haven't had the energy to re-read the game in full (just isoing to find the things that stuck out at me).

The thing is though. If you're town, you need to do more than claim misrepresentation. I very much like Occam's Razor and to an issue like Rainbowdash (for example), my version is simpler and thus more likely. The onus is one town-you to either prove your innocence or to present a stronger case on someone else.

Tammy wrote:Also, KK - what do you make of Slaxx looking through your predecessor's meta and urging me to look through it to in order to get me to see the likelihood of your being town? Usually when scum look through meta, they do it find stuff they can exploit, not to find things they can clear people with.

What would be his scum motivation for doing that? He could have very easily joined me and Junpei on your wagon yesterday and tried to talk Rainbowdash into voting you as well, but he didn't. He actually tried to convince me I was wrong about you.

That's not a very good recap of Slaxx's actions. For the majority of Day 2 he cheerleaded trying to get a third vote on me while staying off the wagon. Then it was about after you and Rainbowdash replaced in that he switched to pushing farside22.

Why would he do that as scum? As scum lynching you would have just been the same to him as lynching farside, would it not?Usually when scum look through meta, they do it find stuff they can exploit, not to find things they can clear people with.What would be his scum motivation for doing that? He could have very easily joined me and Junpei on your wagon yesterday and tried to talk Rainbowdash into voting you as well, but he didn't. He actually tried to convince me I was wrong about you.Why would he do that as scum? As scum lynching you would have just been the same to him as lynching farside, would it not?

It would, but there's more in play. Scum need to manipulate town to achieve the lynches that they want. When replacements enter the game it changes the crowd that they are manipulating. You and Rainbowdash entered the game and he changed gears--citing a conveniently timed re-read--and called me (dense) town. This caused me to soften up on him and go after you more strongly.

Actually,, those are some good questions. I'm getting some of that LYLO second guessing and I'm re-considering the possibility of a Slaxx/Junpei scum-team. Right now it feels like both are stalling for time until roflcopter weighs in so they know which way he's leaning. I;m going to go dig some more then research if a Slaxx/Junpei team-up is likely on my next break.

Pseudo-Slaxx vote remains in effect.
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Post Post #993 (ISO) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:28 am

Post by Tammy »

In post 992, Kublai Khan wrote:
In post 986, Tammy wrote:My paranoia was coming from someone who claimed town cop and L-1 and was being treated as confirmed town. I didn't pay attention to the bodyguard issue until it was pointed out to me, and it didnt' sink in until reading that discussion about balance. I suck at issues of balance and I rarely pay attention to roles that are claimed and even when I do usually forget people's claims.

See, that's difficult for me to believe. Sucking at balancing is different from ignoring the fact that there was a mass claim. It wasn't a subtle mass claim either. You were distinctly told about it.

In general, scum hate confirmed town because it hurts them in LYLO situations and narrows their options. So the goal is either to discredit confirmed townies or eliminate (NK) them. From my POV, you tried to discredit Rainbowdash by questioning his claim. When that failed Rainbowdash was eliminated instead of RBed. It fits.


I never said I missed the mass claim. I missed the bodyguard claim, and didn't realize that the bodyguard wouldn't be the only pr. So, you're telling me that it's easier for you to believe that I am so mind-numbingly stupid as to try to discredit the town cop
when everyone else had already believed them to be confirmed innocent
as scum than it is to believe that I just missed the bodyguard claim and have trouble with balance?

KK wrote:
Tammy wrote:I really wish that you would pay attention to what I actually state. If you did, I think you'd understand where I'm coming from and maybe you'd see why I think you're misrepping me. I think if you are town, and you read what I've actually posted, you'll see that I'm trying to figure out the game. I may not have the same mindset or approach that you have, but just because I'm different than you or react differently to things doesn't mean I'm scum.

I've been ditch-digging for the past 3 days, so I haven't had the energy to re-read the game in full (just isoing to find the things that stuck out at me).

The thing is though. If you're town, you need to do more than claim misrepresentation. I very much like Occam's Razor and to an issue like Rainbowdash (for example), my version is simpler and thus more likely. The onus is one town-you to either prove your innocence or to present a stronger case on someone else.


I have done more. I've asked questions and given reads, but quite frankly I'm getting to the point where I almost don't care and that sucks because I always care. I feel like if you're town, we've lost because you're being so hard-headed when it comes to me that I don't know what else to say. And, if you're scum, you've won because I don't think you'll get the votes to be lynched. I just feel like we're in a lose-lose situation right now because almost no-one is working on any sense of common ground.

I don't have any sort of read on roflcopter either so it's frustrating.
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Post Post #994 (ISO) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:47 am

Post by Junpei »

I'm going to do some ISO of Tammy.

Kublai Khan: I find it funny that you keep trying to push the idea that mafia would replace in and try to set up a rainbowdash lynch, or even the idea of one, after reading the game and seeing how invested everyone was into Rainbowdash being town.
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA41ggsdeXE
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Post Post #995 (ISO) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:38 pm

Post by Slaxx »

Right now it feels like both are stalling for time until roflcopter weighs in so they know which way he's leaning. I;m going to go dig some more then research if a Slaxx/Junpei team-up is likely on my next break.


Why in the hell does it seem more likely that I'm stalling when roflcopter has posted nothing of substance for the better part of since he was replacing in hurrhurrhurr

You are not looking at this game through an unbiased viewpoint because of thought processes like this. I'm sorry but you're being a huge liability to town right now if you are indeed town.

As far as reads go I still wanna know why people think Junpei is town for that reaction, I've done something very similar as scum because I KNEW the person was going to flip town and I figured, hey, if I look REALLY sure then maybe they will think I am town. Its so easy to fake I wouldn't even remotely call it a towntell.

I'm still trying to figure out which of (Jun, KK, Rofl) is town. I really don't think its Jun at this point and its almost impossible to read rofl so far.
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Post Post #996 (ISO) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:48 pm

Post by roflcopter »

In post 995, Slaxx wrote:its almost impossible to read rofl so far.

so read psyche? he's got plenty to read, its not like the slate gets wiped clean when someone replaces.

also, i'm checking in on my other games quickly then finishing this monster tonight, no sleep til brooklyn style.
soi soi soi

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Post Post #997 (ISO) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:08 pm

Post by Tammy »

roflcopter - The problem with psyche is that he started out pretty strong early day one, but nearly all of day two did little more than active lurk and promise content that never came. Also Farside pointed out how he claimed not to have internet so he needed to replace out but is playing in other games and replacing into other games.

If he had kept up the level of play that pretty much got him a town read day one, you probably wouldn't be an empty spot, but because of how he dropped off day two, you are a hard read.
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Post Post #998 (ISO) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:42 pm

Post by roflcopter »

short version, these being possible scum pairs

most likely

dlg/tammy - slaxx
dlg/tammy - iknal/kublai
junpei - iknal/kublai
slaxx - junpei
dlg/tammy - junpei
slaxx - iknal/kublai

least likely

reasons and such in the morning, this took me a long time and i was writing notes in an actual notebook so they need to be typed but i'm weak and need to sleep.
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wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
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Post Post #999 (ISO) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:43 pm

Post by roflcopter »

side note, outside of possible scum pair analysis, junpei is my strongest freestanding town read after all of that
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wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)

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