Open 494: Duck Duck Goose (Game over!)

[Lastsurvivor]

Eh. I'm not sure mike's misrepping moreso than he's pushing on a weak point with this whole "you don't remember how you felt," dealio.

I do see what he's trying to say, but I'm not entirely sure if it's relevant or alignment indicative.

And I think it was a common townread we couldn't agree on....not sure if we ever got to the whole finding a common scum read part.

[mikeburnfire]

Fitz claims amnesia and I don't believe him. This isn't hard to understand.

[Leafsnail]

Votecount 3-10

Nachomamma8: Fegelein, havingfitz (2)
havingfitz: mikeburnfire, DCLXVI (2)
Not voting: Whiskers, Lastsurvivor, Nachomamma8, jilynne1991 (4)

With 8 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch, or 4 votes to no lynch.

The day will last a maximum of three weeks. The deadline will occur after (expired on 2013-06-15 17:45:00) (on the 15th of June).

[havingfitz]

If you were reading the game, then why don't you 'remember' how you felt about TAM, given that he was actively being discussed?

If you were not reading the game

, then why did you put Feng at L-2?

You keep rehashing the same thing that is of no importance. As I believe I have alluded to already...even if I had noticed suspicions being voiced towards TAM it would not have mattered to me because 1) he only had one vote up to my post 709 and 2) I doubt I would have taken issue with him having a wagon on him. My issue at the time was that in 709 I'm thinking Fegelein or DCL? are going to be lynched and then the next time I check in...BAM!! TAM is hammered. I took issue with the quicklynch.

I WILL NOW TYPE A SUMMARY SLOWLY FOR MBF....WHETHER I RECALLED/NOTICED/REMEMBERED ANYONE SAYING ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT TAM DID NOT MATTER. MY ISSUE WAS WITH THE QUICKLYNCH AND SUBSEQUENTLY...WHO WAS ON IT.

And you are misrepping me again in your second point. I voted Fege ATT because I suspected him.

If anyone else is interested in an mbf wagon I will gladly move from Nacho to mbf.

Really? Because immediately after his lynch, you said you were bothered by the speed of the wagon.

Look up the definition of hindsight Sherlock. I was and still am bothered by the quicklynch and the fact is was on town (the hindsight bit). If it had been on scum...in hindsight I would not have a problem with it. You are really a Chicken Little today.

I can use buzzwords too! Ad nauseum! WIFOM! Appeal to Fear! Affirming the consequent!

I was the one using AD HOMs...I was just pointing it out to save you et al the trouble. Even if it did apply.

[Nachomamma8]

7)... I’m voting him for being on both mislynches (he is 1 of 2 on both); still being here; and his unexplained and IMO irrational move to TAM.

Sorry, where were you where LS was grilling me on my reasons for the move to TAM?

[havingfitz]

Because you didn't do anything else besides vote Whiskers. You didn't try to get us to understand your reasons for voting her, or seriously push the wagon. You just looked like you were trying to be unique, but in reality you just wasted everyone's time.

I gave my reasons for voting her in Post 660. I do not recall if anyone had difficulty understanding my reasons for voting her but I made them clear. My vote was only on her for a little over 24 hours so no...there wasn't a bunch of lobbying on my part. But I rarely lobby for wagons above and beyond my initial reasons for voting a person. And the earlier in the game it is the less likely I am to. To you initial point though....no...I was not throwing around useless votes IMO.

Also...you keep on saying that you started the Monty wagon. But being the first vote on a wagon does not give you town points unless you push whoever your wagoning. You didn't mention Monty at all after you voted him. You commented on basically everyone else, but not Monty. The first time you mention him after your vote is in #660, when you unvote him because his posts are suddenly genuine (what the fuck does that mean anyway).

I don't keep on saying anything. I mentioned it once iirc to show my votes were having an impact. Monty got to L-2. Who knows where Whiskers would have gotten if I had had support for her wagon. You promote wagons the way you want to and keep your townpoints.

A common thread in the wagons you've "started" this game is that they don't get the support they need for a lynch...that's because you haven't been committing to them. Sure, you voted some out of nowhere suspects and you were going against the crowd...but that doesn't mean anything if you just go back to being a floater afterwards.

Just me? You were on Monty and Fegelein at various points D2 as well. Did they fail because you didn't push them enough as well? How well was your vote utilized at the end of D1? This post really didn't warrant a response but since you kept wanting one there you go.

[havingfitz]

TAM

I was here. I recall not caring for your response to him. What did you want me to say? It's still a point IMO against you.

[havingfitz]

^ Not sure why the entire post didn't quote but it should be obvious I am responding to Nacho's Post 979.

[Nachomamma8]

I was here. I recall not caring for your response to him. What did you want me to say? It's still a point IMO against you.

Not caring for my response to him is fine, but I assumed you would have questions of your own about it because you sure as hell haven't explained why you didn't like it.

[mikeburnfire]

Can somebody please translate what Fitz is saying for me? Because

APPARENTLY

I'm misunderstanding him.

From what I gather, he didn't notice the people voicing support for a TAM wagon (or he did and didn't care or maybe he did care and he forgets I don't know anymore), but voted Feng over DCL because he thought it was the better wagon. When today began, he insisted that 2-3 scum were on TAM's wagon, indicating that he thinks the TAM wagon was a rushed effort by the scum to avoid Feng's lynch (implying Fengscum). But instead of going after Feng, he goes after Nacho. He's been pushing a case on Nacho for a long time (still voting him too!), even though his case has been proven to be weak.

When I inquired later about Feng, he insists that he still suspects him. He has repeated

numerous

times that TAM's speedwagon makes Feng look bad, but always returns to attacking the people on his wagon. He's tried to convince me that a single scum is likely to be on both mislynches. Failing that, and arousing my suspicions in the process, he has resorted to ad hominem attacks to try to start a lynch on me.

[havingfitz]

@Nacho...I did raise questions about your actions wrt TAM.  See Post 836...since apparently you didn't see it when I made it...as you failed to respond to it.  I didn't bring it up to you based on the fact you essentially responded to my suspicions in your reply to LS.  And as I've said...your response was not convincing IMO.  So yes...I sure as hell HAVE explained why I didn't like it. 

---

From what I gather, he didn't notice the people voicing support for a TAM wagon (or he did and didn't care or maybe he did care and he forgets I don't know anymore),

Any of these options aside from the "did care" one work for me.

but

voted Feng over DCL because he thought it was the better wagon.

Why the "but?"  My voting for Feng D2 (or Fege or whatever the %^& he prefers) as opposed to DCL has nothing to do with my thoughts on TAM or his QL....which happened after I voted Feng!  See how disjointed your shit is today?  You are making no sense.

Attn town

....can you see mbf's weakass efforts to assign suspicions on me?  FFS...

When today began, he insisted that 2-3 scum were on TAM's wagon, indicating that he thinks the TAM wagon was a rushed effort by the scum to avoid Feng's lynch (implying Fengscum).

I didn't say it was an effort to avoid Feng's lynch...I said it didn't look good towards Feng.  And I still feel that way.  I also said I would not be shocked if 2-3 scum weren't on it which I later tempered to 1 or 2 scum on it.  But I digress...the TAM QL does reflect poorly on Feng but it's not IMO enough of a reason to vote him.  As apparently seems to be a current consensus since DCL is the only person today to lay a vote on Feng.

But instead of going after Feng, he goes after Nacho.

Being a counterwagon doesn't make Feng a lock to be scum and every day is a new day.  New information to work with.  My top suspect atm is where my vote is.  Problem?  Why aren't you voting DCL today?  What changed for you since D2? 

You say you think it's highly likely one or both of DCL and Nacho are scum yet you vote me.  WTF?

He's been pushing a case on Nacho for a long time (still voting him too!), even though his case has been proven to be weak.

Uh...I've been pushing a case on Nacho today only...and voting him today only.  Why is that a problem? 

When I inquired later about Feng, he insists that he still suspects him.

Yep.  So?  I still do suspect him.  He's lower down my ladder is all.  His suspicions towards my current #1 add to my reservations wrt him being scum.  What's the problem?

He has repeated

numerous

times that TAM's speedwagon makes Feng look bad, but

always returns to attacking the people on his wagon.

I'm pretty sure prior to this post I only said it made Feng look bad once.  But regardless....what if I sy it a dozen times?  What does it matter?  I'm voting who I think is most suspect IMO.   And as for attacking people on "his wagon"...who is the he you are referring to?  Not Feng I assume.  Which must mean TAM in which case....WTF?  What is wrong with going after people on the TAM wagon?  Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. 

He's tried to convince me that a single scum is likely to be on both mislynches. Failing that, and arousing my suspicions in the process, he has resorted to ad hominem attacks to try to start a lynch on me.

Why is my opinion that there is a common scum on both mislynches cause for suspicion?  It's a perfectly logical assumption to have and as I've shown....in my experiences is most often the case.  And I don't want you lynched because I think you are stupid (an acknowledged and well deserved Ad Hom on you by me I admit)...I would take you as an alternative to Nacho becuase of the continued crap you are pushing on me today.  It's ridiculously bad.  And based on the one game we have in our past...you seem to be better at finding scum than you have shown in this game.  So your play in here definitely warrants suspicion.


So in summary...

Nacho Option #1
Mikeburnfire Option #1a
Option #3 TBD after Option 1 & 1a are eliminated.

[mikeburnfire]

but

voted Feng over DCL because he thought it was the better wagon.

Why the "but?"  My voting for Feng D2 (or Fege or whatever the %^& he prefers) as opposed to DCL has nothing to do with my thoughts on TAM or his QL....which happened after I voted Feng!  See how disjointed your shit is today?  You are making no sense.

Attn town

....can you see mbf's weakass efforts to assign suspicions on me?  FFS...

That wasn't an attack. I was listing the chronology of what occurred.

When today began, he insisted that 2-3 scum were on TAM's wagon, indicating that he thinks the TAM wagon was a rushed effort by the scum to avoid Feng's lynch (implying Fengscum).

I didn't say it was an effort to avoid Feng's lynch...I said it didn't look good towards Feng. 

Why does TAM's quicklynch make Feng look worse? Furthermore, if you were willing to put Feng at L-2 yesterday, and the TAM wagon made him look

worse

, then why did you abandon him in favor of Nacho?

Being a counterwagon doesn't make Feng a lock to be scum and every day is a new day.  New information to work with.  My top suspect atm is where my vote is.  Problem?  Why aren't you voting DCL today?  What changed for you since D2? 

You say you think it's highly likely one or both of DCL and Nacho are scum yet you vote me.  WTF?

I don't recall a time when I called Nacho scum. In fact, I said I had a townish read on him today. As for DCLXVI, I've been trying to get him lynched all game and the only person who would join me today was Feng. It was a lost cause, so I publicly stated that I would not pursue his lynch today. Then I started looking at you, and you keep making less sense to me.

[Lastsurvivor]

I don't keep on saying anything. I mentioned it once iirc to show my votes were having an impact. Monty got to L-2. Who knows where Whiskers would have gotten if I had had support for her wagon. You promote wagons the way you want to and keep your townpoints.

The amount of times you mentioned it isn't relevant, although thanks for the correction.

How can you claim your vote had impact when you didn't even do anything with it? That's what I care about. There's nothing townie about starting a wagon and not focusing on it. Scum can do it too.

Just me? You were on Monty and Fegelein at various points D2 as well. Did they fail because you didn't push them enough as well? How well was your vote utilized at the end of D1? This post really didn't warrant a response but since you kept wanting one there you go.

What...? I think you missed my point. My status on those wagons isn't relevant since I didn't start the wagons. That's what I'm holding you accountable for. You vote people and then you don't focus on them. Instead, you focus on just about anyone else. Unless you're claiming I do the same thing (I'd argue I've been doing the opposite, really), this response is a load of hogwash.

Also, the fact that you were on Whisk for only 24 hours pretty much highlights my point that you were just throwing your vote away, and it looks like you were just trying to throw a wrench in yesterday's scramble. Sure, you justified your vote, but you (again) didn't push it in a time where you needed to.

[Leafsnail]

Votecount 3-11

Nachomamma8: Fegelein, havingfitz (2)
havingfitz: mikeburnfire, DCLXVI (2)
Not voting: Whiskers, Lastsurvivor, Nachomamma8, jilynne1991 (4)

With 8 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch, or 4 votes to no lynch.

The day will last a maximum of three weeks. The deadline will occur after (expired on 2013-06-15 17:45:00) (on the 15th of June).

jilynne1991 and Fegelein have been prodded.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho...I did raise questions about your actions wrt TAM.  See Post 836...since apparently you didn't see it when I made it...as you failed to respond to it.  I didn't bring it up to you based on the fact you essentially responded to my suspicions in your reply to LS.  And as I've said...your response was not convincing IMO.  So yes...I sure as hell HAVE explained why I didn't like it. 

Vote: havingfitz

[Nachomamma8]

Fitz and me: Fitz pretty much opened up the day attacking me because of my involvement on the TAM wagon and the fact that I'm still alive. When LS engaged me about it, however, there was no followup, there was no talk, there wasn't shit; he just said that he was dissatisfied with my answers but has put no effort into explaining why my answers were unsatisfactory or WHY he think I would make the TAM push as scum. He's been on the defensive from MBF for a while and now suspects him because MBF is misrepping him, but his interactions with me have been pretty limited lately. He's also kind of tried to get a wagon on MBF going, but instead of getting something started himself, he announces that he's willing to switch over to MBF whenever as long as a wagon forms.

You didn't answer my question and show me where I base my vote on Nacho on Feng being scum.

1)...

As I remember it, your logic was that TAM's wagon shot up as an alternative to Feng's wagon, which made Feng scum.

2)...

Therefore, two~three scum are on the wagon.

3)...

There was also the argument that Nacho was scum because he's still alive even though he would be seen as a threat,

4)...

and the argument that he's scum because he's been on both mislynches

5)...

(and those two arguments contradict each other).

6)...

The only other argument is that his 180 on Feng seemed scummy.

7)...

Is that your main reason for suspecting him?
 
And yes,

I know what the word ambivalent means

.

8)...

It applies to others in that grouping more than you, but

9)...

I included you because you didn't express strong feelings about the lynch of Feng nor TAM.

10)...

You didn't give a read on TAM, and you had expressed some minimal suspicion of Feng. So yeah,

ambivalent

 
P-edit: I looked it up. Apparently I don't know what ambivalent means.

11)...

The word I was looking for is "indifferent"

1)...

I said the TAM quickwagon reflected poorly on Feng. 
 

2)...

I said 2-3 scum on TAM’s wagon initially but backed off that a bit to 1-2.  My money is on 2. 
 

3)...

I did say that.  I also said he could still be here because he’s completely off the mark.  And for the argument (made by more than one) that Nacho could simply still be here because scum was afraid to target someone who had activated their PGO ability…the same fear would apply towards anyone they would consider targeting so that’s a null point).
 

4)...

I did not say he was scum for being on both mislynches.  It is however an added suspicion towards Nacho.  FTR I think that one of Nacho or DCL is probably scum and of the two I suspect Nacho more.
 

5)...

HTF do points 3 & 4 contradict each other   They are each reasons I suspect Nacho and combined (and in no way contradicting each other) they have enough weight for me to vote him.
 

6)...

No….I said his reversal on TAM was suspect.  Since he moved from Feng to TAM you could extrapolate your comment but it’s nots what I said.  His move onto TAM is what I find suspect.
 

7)...

I’m voting him for being on both mislynches (he is 1 of 2 on both); still being here; and his unexplained and IMO irrational move to TAM.

A lot of fitz's defense here is really nitpicky, especially in the first 7 points. 1) "TAM's wagon was an alternative to Feg's wagon, thus Feg was scum" is pretty much equal to "TAM wagon reflects poorly on Feg". 3's point of "Nacho is still alive when he should've been killed long ago" was his exact argument, yeah. He did say I had the possibility of being town, but that was the argument. 4's point, same thing. MBF points out that fitz is arguing that I'm scum because I've been on both mislynches, fitz goes "well that's not the only reason I have". 6's point where MBF says he suspects me for my reversal on Feng and fitz goes "No, for his reversal on TAM"... If he has no problems with the reversal on Feng and he's aware of my reads at that point, then yeah he should understand why I ended up pushing on TAM.

As for TAM being lynched behind my back...he fcuking was. Anything said before my last post prior to his quicklynch kicking off doesn't matter. I don't know if I did or didn't notice other people mentioning him as a suspect but it wouldn't have brought me to his rescue or anything.

This is also bullshit. Fitz is claiming that he didn't comment on TAM who was apparently a leaning town read at that point because TAM was "lynched behind his back", although DCL had brought up a case on him and Rach and I had already commented on how we thought he would be a pretty good wagon. Then when MBF brings up that people did say negative things about it, fitz says he just forgot.

You keep rehashing the same thing that is of no importance.

Funny that fitz of all people would say this.

You say you think it's highly likely one or both of DCL and Nacho are scum yet you vote me.  WTF?

Probably for the same reason you think that one of DCL and I are scum and you're willing to vote MBF.

And based on the one game we have in our past...you seem to be better at finding scum than you have shown in this game.  So your play in here definitely warrants suspicion.

So is this another burden of proficiency argument?

[havingfitz]

Fitz and me: Fitz pretty much opened up the day attacking me because of my involvement on the TAM wagon and the fact that I'm still alive. When LS engaged me about it, however, there was no followup, there was no talk, there wasn't shit; he just said that he was dissatisfied with my answers but has put no effort into explaining why my answers were unsatisfactory or WHY he think I would make the TAM push as scum. He's been on the defensive from MBF for a while and now suspects him because MBF is misrepping him, but his interactions with me have been pretty limi

ted lately. He's also kind of tried to get a wagon on MBF going, but instead of getting something started himself, he announces that he's willing to switch over to MBF whenever as long as a wagon forms.

- You left out the part about you being on both mislynches.
- You left out the part where you ignored my suspicions of you. Perhaps there would have been more exchange between us if there had been an exchange between us.
- The bigger question for me is why town would push. the TAM wagon
- As for the portion in bold...nice summary. So what? Yours has more support atm.

A lot of fitz's defense here is really nitpicky, especially in the first 7 points. 1) "TAM's wagon was an alternative to Feg's wagon, thus Feg was scum" is pretty much equal to "TAM wagon reflects poorly on Feg". 3's point of "Nacho is still alive when he should've been killed long ago" was his exact argument, yeah. He did say I had the possibility of being town, but that was the argument. 4's point, same thing. MBF points out that fitz is arguing that I'm scum because I've been on both mislynches, fitz goes "well that's not the only reason I have". 6's point where MBF says he suspects me for my reversal on Feng and fitz goes "No, for his reversal on TAM"... If he has no problems with the reversal on Feng and he's aware of my reads at that point, then yeah he should understand why I ended up pushing on TAM.

- It' one of my many flaws. I nitpick. The reason I nitpicked mbfs comments which inferred I was saying Feng was scum is because I was not saying Feng was scum. I said TAM's QL reflected poorly on Feng. i.e. it's a reason to be more suspicious towards Feng but it is not a slam dunk. Feng is probably still in the running for my 3rd suspect (after you and mbf) but his push on you today has given my suspicions towards him a bit of pause. As for your change on Feng...(and TAM for that matter)...they don't make sense to me. Your explanation to LS (ignoring my Post 836) did not suffice. If anything...you saying you didn't find TAM particularly scummy strengthens my suspicion on that point. Which as I look you ISO over I see seems to be a disconnect with the post where you have a town read on DCL in part because he is pushing on your second suspect.

So what was TAM...your barely voiced second suspect or not particularly scummy? That makes no sense. And while the "second suspect" comment would actually seem to support your move to TAM...the fact you went off an L-2 wagon on someone you had been focused on fairly strongly to an L-5 wagon of someone not that scummy does not compute.

This is also bullshit.

1)

Fitz is claiming that he didn't comment on TAM who was apparently a leaning town read at that point because TAM was "lynched behind his back",

2)

although DCL had brought up a case on him and Rach and I had already commented on how we thought he would be a pretty good wagon.

3)

Then when MBF brings up that people did say negative things about it, fitz says he just forgot.

The way you line things up is bullshit:

1)

..I never said I didn't comment on TAM because he was lynched behind my back. I said I didn't comment on him because he wasn't someone I was suspicious of.

2)

...so what? As I've said...a person I don't particularly suspect with one vote has people voicing suspicion of him.

3)

...mbf's point is as worthless as you bringing it up again. This was brought up today...after the lynch...and has been addressed. I said I don't remember if I noticed the suspicions towards TAM and I also said it wouldn't have mattered if I did.

Just like these 3 points of yours don't matter.

And based on the one game we have in our past...you seem to be better at finding scum than you have shown in this game. So your play in here definitely warrants suspicion.

So is this another burden of proficiency argument?

Is saying you should be dead a burden of proficiency argument? Whatever...it works. As for mbf...it wasn't meant to be. It just looks that way comparing how crappy his points on me have been in this game compared with our one other game together.

[jilynne1991]

I *might* be willing to lynch Nachomamma8 today. (I play super cautiously.) I'm still looking at everyone else.

[Whiskers]

This is also bullshit.

1)

Fitz is claiming that he didn't comment on TAM who was apparently a leaning town read at that point because TAM was "lynched behind his back",

2)

although DCL had brought up a case on him and Rach and I had already commented on how we thought he would be a pretty good wagon.

3)

Then when MBF brings up that people did say negative things about it, fitz says he just forgot.

The way you line things up is bullshit:

1)

..I never said I didn't comment on TAM because he was lynched behind my back. I said I didn't comment on him because he wasn't someone I was suspicious of.

Just so you know, Point 1 is:
-You had a townread on TAM.
-You should have commented on it to stop a lynch on your townread.
-Why didn't you comment on him?
-He was lynched behind your back.

That's what they're saying.

[Whiskers]

What they're reffering to, rather. What they're saying you're saying-- and yeah, you did actually say that.

[Fegelein]

Suffering from IRL burnout atm, it's very hard for me to try and contribute. I will later on.

[Fegelein]

I'd like to bring up the prospect of Mike and Nacho being possible scum, even though I have Mike as a weak Town read.

[havingfitz]

Just so you know, Point 1 is:
-You had a townread on TAM.
-You should have commented on it to stop a lynch on your townread.
-Why didn't you comment on him?
-He was lynched behind your back.

That's what they're saying.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Whiskers.  But seriously.  I know what they are trying to say.  And I've addressed all of the points more than once iirc.

And ftr, here is where I think I first discuss my sentiment about commenting on TAM's wagon and my view on TAM.

9)... For one thing…

I didn’t even get a chance to comment on the TAM wagon because it happened so quickly.

 

As for the Feng wagon…I was on it.  That’s shows my support.  What strong feelings were you expecting?

  
 
10)...

I did not find TAM especially suspect or I would have said as much.  I do not typically go around saying I think so and so is more likely to be town.  His town lean from me was evident from my lack of comment wrt him.

I do not consider 1 vote and a few voiced suspicions to be anything that precarious a situation.  At post 709 (my last post before TAM's 1-vote wagon grew into a lynch) TAM wasn't even registering with me.  At post 709 of D2 I would not of defended someone who I at best had a very weak town lean on.  And even if I had been around while his wagon progressed I probably wouldn't have defended him.  I would have probably just cautioned players on the speed his wagon was growing and what that might be indicative of.

But I do not think any of this really matters.  We are taking our attention off the fact that what happened has happened and a townie was quicklynched (in ~6hrs iirc).  And there is sure as hell scum on his wagon.  How many is debatable but I'm guessing 2. 

Question for Nacho

...how many scum do you believe were on TAM's lynch?

[mikeburnfire]

We're getting close to deadline, and we've spent most of the day discussing the merits of lynching either Nacho or Fitz. Is there a case on anybody else that somebody wants to present?

Fitz, I can't figure out what you're saying about the TAM wagon. If you so sure that TAM was quick-lynched by scum, then why did you stop pursuing a Feng lynch?

If you're not sure that Feng is scum, then why are you so assertive that scum were desperately scrambling onto TAM?

You thought Feng was suspicious enough to warrant a vote yesterday, and you keep saying (ad nauseum) that TAM's quicklynch makes Feng look bad. Today you even told me outright that you still suspect Feng.

Later in the day, he dropped below Nacho, Whiskers, and Monty on your suspicions list. Why?

[Fegelein]

Between MBF and havingfitz, I personally believe that MBF has the stronger case here. A lot of the things fitz is saying is complete theory, he's starting to contradict himself, while Mike's case seems pretty fresh from what I can see.

That being said, I feel that 1 of them is scum. If MBF is scum, I am almost sure Nacho is.
If fitz is scum, then Nacho could be scum, but it's a slightly weak read. I can see Whiskers and DCL also, maybe Monty.