726 - Mind Screw Gaiden, Game Over

[Vi]

Kair

yuu

It was.
tajo can tell you about the horrible jokes I pull out of other peoples' names.

[Natirasha]

As per the "moving" of the site, I am going to pretend the last three days did not exist in regards to the vote count.

[Illumina]

Does that imply that the vote count was significant in some way, beyond counting votes...?

Kairyuu: I didn't know you were looking for the G-man, it just seemed like you were looking for one person in particular, for some reason I didn't know. I have been reading the thread, thanks...

No, I meant to say deadline.

[Kairyuu]

Major apologies to all for my absence. Unfortunately, it must continue, since my laptop is making sounds like a dying cat and freezing up every 5 minutes. So yeah, it needs to get sent to get repaired.

@mod: Is it possible for me to get a temporary replacement while I send my computer to get fixed (about 2 weeks)? If the replacement would have to be permanent I understand, but I would prefer to come back if at all possible.

@Illumina:

I didn't know you were looking for the G-man

This^^

I have been reading the thread, thanks

Contradicts this^^

For the record, I have information that G-Man is not town. I may as well claim that now, since the scum have too much warning for the nameclaim to work at this point anyway.

Because of this^^

So that leaves us with a few possibilities as to what is going on here.

1. You are not reading the thread (therefore, you are lying)
2. You are simply skimming the thread, and may have missed it on your way through (anti-town, because it shows that you jumped on the first thing you saw without looking into it further)
3. You actually are reading the thread, and you did notice that I mentioned G-Man, but chose to pursue it anyway (which implies that you are scum trying to make up a case)

Of those possibilities, 3 is highly unlikely, simply because you would have noticed several people chiming in with their information (which was the same as mine) immediately after I presented it. Therefore, the route would be highly unlikely to yield a wagon, and would be a poor play.

1 and 2 are both reasonably likely, and both are less than great for your position. Either you are lying (I generally pursue LAL unless logic dictates another route is far better), or you are not committing yourself to trying to scumhunt, which could also imply scum.

I want to know how you managed to miss the entire conversation about the G-Man issue.

FOS: Illumina

@Vi:

Hey yuu, quit being AWOL

Heh. There was actually someone in my newbie game called Yuu. When I saw this I thought that she somehow replaced in without my noticing.

What do you think of my line of inquiry with tajo?

I think that he has tied himself nice and strongly to hp [leaves] and that if we lynch hp and he flips scum, tajo probably is too. Linking tells are nice. I like them.

So yeah, I agree with pretty much your entire argument, and probably would have called him on the hypocritical behavior if I had been around for it when it happened.

[forbiddanlight]

Kairyuu: I didn't know you were looking for the G-man, it just seemed like you were looking for one person in particular, for some reason I didn't know.

You uh...did get a note, right?

[Illumina]

I got the note as well, but the way Kairyuu was framing the claim sounded like his finding someone might have been part of his win condition or something. The wording of it made me uneasy, especially when he said "we can stop the claim when I'm satisfied".

But that's my mistake. Your post 70 makes sense now that I read it the right way -- I read every sentence, but failed to put 2 and 2 together. So, my bad. Your reaction was interesting, though...

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

Your post 70 makes sense now that I read it the right way -- I read every sentence, but failed to put 2 and 2 together.

There's a way to misread it?

Back. Sorta. RL is still giving me hell (senior service project).

First bit. Explaining V/LA. Irrelevent.

Ok then. So it seems that quite a few people have been given info that a person/people from half-life are anti-town. And since everyone seems to be saying that in thread, the scum will very likely not claim to be from half-life, rendering a name claim/origin claim utterly useless now.

Chastising the town for revealing too much information, rendering the gambit Tar and I were both trying to run (which, amusingly enough, was backfiring anyway for both of us, since we were suspecting each other) useless.

For the record, I have information that G-Man is not town. I may as well claim that now, since the scum have too much warning for the nameclaim to work at this point anyway.

I reveal exactly what information I was looking for. That it was later supported by quite a few other people lends credibility to it. As the first one to claim the exact information it is highly unlikely that I do not actually have it.

Hmm. Nowhere in there is there anything misleading or confusing. Nothing that is not blatantly obvious. So, please explain how you misunderstood what I was saying so drastically. What you have been saying does not add up.

Your reaction was interesting, though...

How so. Saying that something is "interesting," without providing your reasoning as to the "why" it is interesting and the "what kind" of interesting it is, is a cop out. It means that you want other people to find it strange, but you do not want to be the first person to actually take action based on it. Then, if people do not jump on it, and it comes up later, you can just say that it was something that you noted for later, but had no real relevance at the time. I'm getting odd vibes from you right now.

Oh wow. I missed something my first time through your post.

I got the note as well

Alright. So you have a note that tells you G-Man is anti-town. You see me state in a post that I know that G-Man is anti-town as an explanation for why I wanted a mass nameclaim. And then, you FOS me for that. I call bullshit. I think that you are either trying to cover up for not reading the thread (implying you are lying) or you are trying to blend in by claiming to have the note when you don't (also implying that you are lying).

LAL.

unvote

and

vote: Illumina

You've trapped yourself in your own story. You are lying about something. The only question is what. Either way, you're easily the best place for my vote right now, and, as with all of my votes but the random ones, I would be happy to carry it to a lynch right now.

[hp [leaves]]

I just noticed I had actually received the note. I'm so sorry about the confusion.

I'd like to

UnFoS

and

FoS Kairyuu

as my note doesn't specify that G-Man is anti-town. It just says he isn't aligned with town.

[populartajo]

I just noticed I had actually received the note. I'm so sorry about the confusion.

I'd like to

UnFoS

and

FoS Kairyuu

as my note doesn't specify that G-Man is anti-town. It just says he isn't aligned with town.

Interesting. So, who agrees with hp about his note?

[populartajo]

So yeah, I agree with pretty much your entire argument, and probably would have called him on the hypocritical behavior if I had been around for it when it happened.

What hypocritical behaviour?

[hp [leaves]]

I can post the note's "name" if you want me to confirm it.

[populartajo]

Wait.

[Kairyuu]

@hp [leaves]: Good show. Two possibilities arise. Either you are town and you just proved that you actually

do

have the note (since yes, you're completely right in that it says that), or the scum can daytalk and you were told by a buddy who actually did get the message what to say. Not sure which.

@tajo: The hypocritical behavior where you yelled at people for trying to use secret info to catch the scum, and then immediately followed it with your own idea to use secret information to catch the scum.

@Mod: On second thought, I will try to stay in the game, since I have managed to beat my computer into submission. It's probably a temporary fix, but it'll do for now.

[populartajo]

@tajo: The hypocritical behavior where you yelled at people for trying to use secret info to catch the scum, and then immediately followed it with your own idea to use secret information to catch the scum.

Theres a big difference there, Kayruu.
If I had information regarding that someone from somewhere is antitown, I simply dont share it in the thread. Someone though it was a good idea. I think it was stupid.
Who was the first to post that? Maybe scum cant daytalk and scum number 1 who prob get the note used that as a way to tell their scumpartner from HalfLife about it. Anything is possible here.
Meh, Ive been thinking lately that our friend from HalfLife is neutral or selfalligned, prob SK.
Now, what Im proposing is that we use our information to semiconfirm people, something very similar to what hp just did some posts ago.
Of course all is shit if scum did get the note.
So, where am I being hypocrite?

[Kairyuu]

@tajo:

If I had information regarding that someone from somewhere is antitown, I simply dont share it in the thread. Someone though it was a good idea. I think it was stupid.

Agree.

Who was the first to post that? Maybe scum cant daytalk and scum number 1 who prob get the note used that as a way to tell their scumpartner from HalfLife about it. Anything is possible here.

Completely reasonable. A possibility.

Now, what Im proposing is that we use our information to semiconfirm people, something very similar to what hp just did some posts ago.

That still requires people post the information in thread, which you have set yourself against. There is no difference between the two things. It is your attitude that is the problem. Disliking the fact that what happened ended up happening and then deciding to salvage what can be salvaged from the information is one thing. The way you treated it, as if you want people to bring in

new

information to compound the amount that is known in thread in the slight hope that someone else has the same information and can semi-confirm whoever claimed, is hypocritical.

[populartajo]

Kayrru, there is obvious information that can be shared, obviously the one that doesnt give advantage to scum (perfect example is hp sharing his ability). Im pointing at that information. Sharing information that gives advantage to scum (what happened pages ago) is retarded and thats what I was criticizing.
Still thinking Im hypocritical?

[Vi]

@hp [leaves]: Good show. Two possibilities arise. Either you are town and you just proved that you actually

do

have the note (since yes, you're completely right in that it says that), or the scum can daytalk and you were told by a buddy who actually did get the message what to say. Not sure which.

Protip: Something very similar to what hp said was already called out in the topic. (tajo 91)

@Mod: On second thought, I will try to stay in the game, since I have managed to beat my computer into submission.

As the fading light of a dying day filtered through the window blinds, Roger stood over his victim with a smoking .45, surprised at the serenity that filled him after pumping six slugs into the bloodless tyrant that mocked him day after day, and then he shuffled out of the office with one last look back at the shattered computer terminal lying there like a silicon armadillo left to rot on the information superhighway.

--Winner of the 1994 Bulwer-Lytton Award

I can post the note's "name" if you want me to confirm it.

I like tajo's idea of waiting on this one, as that's the last way to confirm anyone has the note.

[veerus]

I find it hard to believe that it took hp that long to suddenly realize he has the note.

[Natirasha]

"But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me."

[quote="The Seventh Vote Count(AKA the "Inconcievable" Vote Count)"]ote Count
Natirasha(1): forbiddanlight
forbiddanlight(0):
hp [leaves](2): veerus, MafiaSSK
illumina(1): Kairyuu
Kairyuu(0):
Kinetic(0):
MafiaSSK(0):
populartajo(1): Vi
Spambot(0):
Stef(0):
Tarhalindur(0):
veerus(2): Tarhalindur, populartajo
Vi (0):
Battle Mage(0):

FoS Count
Natirasha(1): forbiddanlight
forbiddanlight(0):
hp [leaves](0):
illumina(1): Kairyuu
Kairyuu(2): Kinetic, hp [leaves]
Kinetic(0):
MafiaSSK(0):
populartajo(1): veerus
Spambot(0):
Stef(0):
Tarhalindur(0):
veerus(0):
Vi (0):
fluffy bunnies(1): Tarhalindur
Floofy bunnies(1): MafiaSSK
lol I am arguing with myself(1): Vi[/quote]

[Vi]

Inconcievable

I don't even think you know what that word means. (Or how to spell it )

Un-FoS: lol I am arguing with myself
FoS: Poofy bunnies with big floppy ears

-----

I find it hard to believe that it took hp that long to suddenly realize he has the note.

You have a point, in that by confirming you claim to have read and understood your Role PM/win condition, and in a game like this you're expected to parse your Role PM closely.

[Kairyuu]

I find it hard to believe that it took hp that long to suddenly realize he has the note.

This^^^

or the scum can daytalk and you were told by a buddy who actually did get the message what to say.

Is the reason for this^^^

@Tajo:

there is obvious information that can be shared

Nothing is obvious. This is a Mind Screw game. No information is, strictly speaking, "safe" to share.

Lemme preface this next bit by saying that, yes, I would like it if we could come close to confirming townies. However, there are several reasons that we should

not

pursue that course of action right now.

First, it is early in D1. If we have semi-confirmed townies, then that is essentially painting a big red target on their chests and telling the scum to kill them. Later in the game, like maybe D2 or 3, this is a good idea, especially if we can confirm more than the scum can kill.

Second, we have no clue whether or not the scum got the note, as you said yourself. If they did (and new evidence is pointing somewhat towards the answer being yes) then what you are proposing does nothing beneficial, and actually hurts the town in the long run.

Third, if we were to do it, then according to you, we would be doing it using new, previously unshared information that you seem to think many of us have. This is quite bad, since it is both trying to outguess the mod of a mind screw game, and could have unanticipated affects to help the scum.

At this point, I still think that your behavior is/was hypocritical. The information that is already claimed in thread, if it cold be used to serve the purpose, then no, suggesting that would not be hypocritical. However, suggesting we just toss around other tidbits that the scum can pick up and find a use for after attacking people for doing the same thing (I still disagree that you are doing anything different from what you are yelling at others for doing), is quite so.

[Tarhalindur]

I'm still not 100%, so I can only offer some thoughts:

1) I'm getting increasingly skeptical of "didn't receive the mod note" as a strong indicator of being scum - it's really starting to remind me of my confirmation mechanic in Mind Screw 2, where confirmation method was largely independent of being town or scum. That doesn't necessarily mean it's completely useless - again, look at Mind Screw 2, where a higher percentage of players who confirmed by PM were scum - but I don't think it's a sure thing.

That said, the two players who originally did not appear to have the mod note but later claimed otherwise (hp [leaves], Illumina) ARE worth looking into, for the reason that has been previously mentioned (daytalking scum could have provided that information if a scum had that info), especially since I'd say there's a 90% chance that group scum have full daytalk.*

* - The game FAQ (and other information available to me) strongly indicates that this is a Twilight setup, like all of my games since Mind Screw 2 have been. I have NEVER run a Twilight setup without giving Mafia, at bare minimum, unrestricted daytalk. In fact, normal nighttalk simply IS NOT POSSIBLE in a Twilight setup, so I'd say Scum (and Masons and Cult, if applicable) having full daytalk is a pretty sure thing.

2) Veerus is back on my scumdar again - note the short posts, possible safeclaim slip*, relative lack of independent commentary (despite this being a point he raised against hp [leaves]), and his follow-the-leader reasoning for being on and pushing the hp [leaves] wagon.

* - There are two points to make in response to your earlier "how is my post a slip?" comment.

Point 1: Mind Screw II had 1 safeclaim for the Mafia, and that was tied to an ability or three. None of my games since then (with the possible exception of an ongoing) have included a safeclaim for the Mafia - I've instead tried to make their role names unguessable using flavor alone.

That said, there are two good arguments for there being at least some safeclaims in the game: I almost always give anti-town neutrals safeclaims (since they have less information than a Mafia group), and I give any non-town player with a blatantly non-town role name a safeclaim (see Jha'Dur/Soul Hunter in B5, Ganondorf in LoZ:OoT). That's good reason to strongly suspect that there are safeclaims in the game. But that brings us to point 2: You didn't say that you were pretty sure that there were safeclaims in the game, you said "plus there are safeclaims". To me, that's information that you could only know for certain if you or a player you can talk to was provided with a safeclaim... and if that is the case, you are almost certainly not town (not 100% - I've considered safeclaims on town in the past for meta-breaking reasons).

3) Illumina's last series of posts looks REALLY scummy from where I'm sitting. His 103 is pinging my IIoA-dar (given the nature of the questions, he's either playing Glork-style or using questions to avoid giving his own thoughts - can't tell which, Glork's early style usually looks scummy to me), and the FoS for Kairyuu isn't helping. 113 doesn't help his cause at all: calling attention to a mod note + summary + apparent contradiction previously noted by Kairyuu is again pinging the IIoA meter, and 116 is explanation. I'm not seeing scumhunting there, and something about the tone REALLY feels off on a gut level (not sure WHY, mind you... )

3) Something about the hp [leaves] wagon feels off to me, for reasons I am not yet sure of. I'd rather follow it up later, after he's posted a bit more.

For now, let's move my vote where it should have been several days ago.

Unvote, Vote: veerus

Side note: My information on G-Man says, to paraphrase, non-town (not necessarily anti-town, but I'd still probably lynch him if I knew where he was).

[hp [leaves]]

What are the odds of one scum not getting the note and the partner getting it?

[veerus]

So wait, you're voting me because I assumed there are safeclaims? That seems like a pretty weak reason to me. You say so yourself that you usually give safeclaims to those who are not town. The two MS-like finished games (ms2/b5) I've studied and/or participated in both had safeclaims. As this is another MS game, I will assume there are safeclaims and speak with that assumption in mind until shown otherwise.

The fact that scum can day-talk still does not explain what took hp so long to realize he "had" the mod note.

[Illumina]

For the record, I have information that G-Man is not town. I may as well claim that now, since the scum have too much warning for the nameclaim to work at this point anyway.

I didn't associate your information with G-man with your reasons for the massclaim: I just read the above as you trying something different because the massclaim wasn't fruitful. A silly misreading, and easily corrected. I'd have unFoS'd you, except your reaction pinged my radar.

It was the way you corrected me that was interesting; and I wanted to wait and see if you'd continue it. From where I'm sitting, it looks like you reacted a little strongly to a perceived opportunity. This is based on your post 114 where you cited a weak argument (ie, me misunderstanding you was patently impossible), then quickly made conclusions about me based on that, ALL of which painted me as scum (this is why I left my FoS on you).

As I defend myself, you continue to leave no room whatsoever for a simple misreading, and keep downplaying my explanation in favor of the options you want to showcase. You keep blatantly ignoring my explanation, insisting you've caught scum because you want a lynch. I am not, in fact, "trapped in my story". The explanation is actually really simple. But it appears to be in your best interest to downplay that as much as you can.

Vote: Kairyuu

.