DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[Death the Hogfather]

Alright, I'll start here with an mild FOS for everyone accusing me of lurking except for incamnito. I've been V/LA, and you should all have known this.

alpaca's contentless posts do not sit well with me, and neither do A&B's.

vote: applesandbanana

A&B's overdefensiveness combined with the hypocritical attempt to shift the wagon onto alpaca make them seem more likely scum to me, but based on the interactions, I am reasonably sure that exactly one of them is scum.

Conservation of posts should be of the utmost importance, but hanging back on a lynch is just as stupid. I would be perfectly fine with either of their lynches at the moment, but would (obviously) prefer an A&B lynch.

I'm pretty much neutral on everyone else.

@incamn: The "character" is that Death, from the Terry Pratchett Discworld series, always talks in all caps. It's a flavor based thing, and one I will probably end up not even using, depending on what Seraphim thinks is best (he hasn't been around lately on AIM).

[Saunt Adelaus]

Votecount as of post 75:

Apples and Banana:

6

:sex w/ shafteds wife club, Pesco Light, Incamnito, Ortohoops, Trotsky, Death the Hogfather,
PoketheAlpaca:

3

: Yosariwen, Apples and Banana, Frog Dodging,
Trotsky:

1

:PoketheAlpaca,
Ortohoops:

1

:Zmd,
Pesco Light:

1

:J-Scope,
Death the Hogfather:

1

:Zaphod Beeblebrox,
Zaphod Beeblebrox:

1

:Raging Wishbone,

not voting:

0

:

while 14 players are alive, 8 votes will lynch

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Woo bandwagon

Unvote Vote: apples and banana

[camn]

UNVOTE

Apples&Bananas.. you are effectively at L-1. Anything to say?

I am only unvoting to avoid an autolynch in the event of a scum or vig kill taking place unexpectedly. (with 13 alive, it would only be 7 to lynch). Consider this vote STILL IN PLACE for all intents an purposes, please.

[Incamnito]

UNVOTE

Apples&Bananas.. you are effectively at L-1. Anything to say?

I am only unvoting to avoid an autolynch in the event of a scum or vig kill taking place unexpectedly. (with 13 alive, it would only be 7 to lynch). Consider this vote STILL IN PLACE for all intents an purposes, please.

Crud. I am sorry for wasting 2 posts on this!
But I fear the unvote wouldn't count under my other account!

I switched my layout and everything.. I just get so hasty!

UNVOTE

[J-Scope]

@Incamnito: If you've been reading the vote counts carefully enough you would know that only votes made in Hydra accounts will count.

But I fear the unvote wouldn't count under my other account!

If you felt this way you would also feel that K-scope's vote wouldn't count, which means A&B wasn't at L-1, which means you didn't have to unvote.

But if you were unsure, you were unsure.

------------------

My main point is I don't think scum would blatantly draw attention to themself in such an obvious way - or rather, I don't think those spam posts were intentionally made to waste posts, when a recharge target is so far off. There is little to no scum motivation behind it.

In fact I'd suggest scum would more likely be the players most wary of this infraction. It's a simple way for them to sit back early and jump on someone for fluff posting, knowing that the town is paranoid of this. And, I think A&B is most guilty of this crime.

That’s a good point. I still want to see better from the Alpaca pair but I see what you mean. Until A&B looks pro-town the pressure is justified in my opinion. I'd throw ZMD into that pile too.

I’m thinking town when I read Frog’s post 73. He’s using his post effectively to pressure a lot of people and really make them answer. He looks more pro-town so far.

Alright, I'll start here with an mild FOS for everyone accusing me of lurking except for incamnito. I've been V/LA, and you should all have known this.

You are two people though so where’s your people?

Death doesn’t give anything new in post 75 but that’s what you can expect from someone coming back from V/LA in a 4 page game. I don’t have a read on him.

[Incamnito]

But if you were unsure, you were unsure.

Hm. I am sure we just didn't notice that k-scope wasn't using the right account. There wasn't much uncertainty about it. Just wouldn't want the scum-kill to force a lynch prematurely.


This does raise an interesting question, though....
Do you, the J of J-scope disagree with KaleiÃ

[DrippingGoofball]

I am willing to hammer A&B if the claim is unsatisfactory. My second head agrees.

Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim can take a lifetime.

*DGB*

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I am willing to hammer A&B if the claim is unsatisfactory. My second head agrees.

Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim can take a lifetime.

*DGB*

==============
There's some bug somewhere, I WAS logged in as Zaphod.

[Yosariwen]

Also,

FOS : Everyone

I know we are supposed to take this game slow PostCount-wise.. but that doesn't mean we have to take it slow time-wise. Why is there only, like, 3 posts today, by 2 different hydras. Keeping our post-count low only gives us any real advantage if we actually USE the advantage to lynch people. Ideally scum.

So.. lets do it.

I do agree with this. Lurking=bad, especally if it slows the game to a halt.

Anyway, considering that the number of wagons we're going to have this game is limited by posts instead of days, there is going to be (and should be) a strong bias in favor of hammering vs. unwagoning and starting over. For that reason, if Apples has something to say, if they want to claim, if they have a defense, if they have an argument for why someome else should be lynched instead of them, or if they have any last words, they should make it now. We are not going to wait forever, either.
-Yos

[whoami8]

I'm a bit baffled by A&B's lack of defense or contribution at L-1.

J-Scope what do you think you learned from your fake hammer?

DGB do you think that A&B isn't posting because they are trying to come up with a fakeclaim? So they've been preparing this fakeclaim all game apparently.

[J-Scope]

[quote="Incamnito"]Do you, the J of J-scope disagree with KaleiÃ

[Saunt Adelaus]

nyballosulgniirkps (Kison+springlullaby) replaces Pesco Light. Thanks for replacing in!

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Hullo guys, catching up.

Unvote.

[Death the Hogfather]

Welcome Kison/SL!

@J-Scope: I have no clue where Seraphim is. He hasn't been on AIM or anything in quite some time. It's beginning to bother me.

So are we getting to lynching A&B-scum now? I'm getting bored waiting for a claim. I say we give it another 24 hours, and if no claim shows up we lynch.

[whoami8]

seems likely A&B is scum. If they're town, scum could spend their kill and get a twofer.

[Trotsky]

while we're waiting, zaphod, kindly reply to post 41.

meanwhile xofsens is failing to post at all. can we lynch the scum already?

[Raging Wishbone]

I know we are supposed to take this game slow PostCount-wise.. but that doesn't mean we have to take it slow time-wise. Why is there only, like, 3 posts today, by 2 different hydras. Keeping our post-count low only gives us any real advantage if we actually USE the advantage to lynch people. Ideally scum.

I disagree, nothing wrong with taking this game slow timewise as well. There's almost no downside to it, and our concentration in this game will be better once the other one is finished.

Vote apples and banana

, for being scum. I say if a few more days go by without a claim we just lynch them and get this over with.

[Apples and Banana]

Sorry, I've been putting my efforts into the other game, since its time-based. I'm not going to be claiming in this post, since I haven't properly defended myself from the attacks on me, though. Warning, this will be a fairly long post, as I PBPA the game thus far.

0 - Mod post
1 - Mod post
2 - Mod post
3 - Mod post
4 - Mod post
5 - Mod post
6 - Random
7 - Random
8 - Random
9 - Random
10 - Votes Pesco Light for using a post to vote the Mod, calls it a 'mega scumtell', which is almost certainly a huge exaggeration
11 - Votes Wishbone since he has never played/modded with anyone in that hydra
12 - Asking a confirmatory question to Poker, trying to set up the basis for a read on Poker
13 - Random
14 - Uses a post for a "Yes, I have", which seems like a waste
15 - Another waste of a post, asking about PF's info on them, that invites yet another wasted post in the answer
16 - Mod post
17 - Random
18 - Random
19 - Posts he can't read hydras, which seems odd considering he signed up for TWO hydra games simultaneously
20 - Points out what he thinks is an SK slip, in what was just a random vote
21 - Starts the theory discussion about signing posts, explains the SK 'slip' was just random posting
22 - Posts mixed opinions about the signing posts, makes a random vote, and uses the same post to ask for less fluff.

FoS: Wishbone

23 - Pointing out the above hypocricy in 22
24 - Commenting on the heads vs hydra discussion
25 - Continuing the heads vs hydra discussion
26 - Continuing the heads vs hydra discussion, points out he'll be signing posts
27 - Continuing the heads vs hydra discussion, points out he'll differ to his other head. At this point, it feels like his posts are being made for the sake of posting.

FoS: Trotsky

28 - Completely useless, waste of a post.

FoS: Poker

29 - Votes me for "discussing semantics without scumhunting"; :goodposting:
30 - Double-posts less than an hour after 29, which seems like a waste, but at least uses the post well
31 - Strawmans my argument about heads vs hydras, and votes me for it, even though he claims to have a "gut scum read" on a RW post.

FoS: Pesco Light

32 - Points on that 31 seems to vote on the weaker of the two points
33 - Keeps strawmanning my point, and calling it scummier than a gut read
34 - Continuing the heads vs hydra discussion
35 - Plays off 15 as "playful banter"
36 - Responds well to 33 and 35
37 - Uses a post for the sole purpose of asking if random votes are a waste of a post.

FoS: Ortohoops

38 - Responds to 37 nicely, though I feel it would have been better to keep this response saved until he had more to post
39 - Wasting another post, as he defends the fact he wasted a post
40 - Makes what looks like a random vote on Trotsky, which would be out of place in a NORMAL game, let alone one where its best to conserve post count
41 - Votes me for "simultaneously wasting posts and providing a reason to lurk", even though lurking isn't bad in this game
42 - Very nice post where he compiles points against Poke, comments on the heads vs hydra discussion, and points out his thoughts on lurking vs spamming in this game
43 - Mod post
44 - Pointing out the strawman in Pesco's logic, following Yos' vote on Poke
45 - Comments on how many NKs we should aim to allow, comments on heads vs hydras, joins the Poke wagon
46 - Another waste of a post, as he answers a question from the random stage, tries to explain that a "Yes, I have" post isn't a watste, and asks a question about something shafted pointed out
47 - Removes his partner's vote on me, voices his opinion on how many action phases
48 -

Yet another

absolute waste of a post from Poke; very happy with my vote at this point
49 - Another strawman at my argument, a ridiculous FoS to anyone who signs their posts. I'm getting a bad vibe from Pesco Light.
50 - Finally a post from Poke that isn't a waste
51 - Points out he dislikes not being able to post a lot, and says he dislikes the rules, when he knew what he was signing up for. Possible excuse to either not post very much of post more than needed.
52 - Very nice post, comments on all the players
53 - Mod post
54 - Reasonless wagon jump onto Poke
55 - Votes Poke for bad logic. He wastes posts, THAT'S scummy. Making an analysis on the game thus far, not so much
56 - Asks about my wagon thus far, points out no original thinking on my part thus far, which is a valid point
57 - Jumps back on my wagon
58 - Votes me for jumping on the Poke wagon, points out KScope's meta allows him to jump on wagons, when my meta is someone who often votes without giving reasons, and wagons a ton Day 1. Ortohoops, who made this post?
59 - Undoes his other head's vote, jumps back on my wagon. This is the same person that said there should be no perceivable difference between the heads.
60 - Talks about the wagon on me without commiting for or against it, points out he finds Poke very scummy
61 - Questions Frog about his reasons for not posting much
62 - Points out that he doesn't see the case on me, he doesn't like Ortohoops wagon-hopping and hypocrisy. :goodposting:
63 - Pressures Poke, asks Orto how the Poke wagon was any more opportunistic than mine
64 - This was a bad post by me, where I waste a post asking a question about one thing shafted said
65 - Explains the rationale for his list/comments of everyone
66 - Points out how bad of a post 64 was
67 - Lurker-votes Hogfather
68 - Explains that he thinks wasting posts isn't scummy, and that Scum actually probably won't do it...WHAT? I think he knows exactly if the Scum are or aren't wasting posts.

Unvote, Vote: Ortohoops

69 - Mod post
70 - Claims I "make a fine lynch today"
71 - Explains the SK/Vig thing from earlier, votes Zaphod, points out my "wagon is good too", which just looks like paving the way to jump on down the road
72 - Wastes a post correcting what looks like a nice freudian slip in 73
73 - Very nice, concise, post which sums up their views in the past page or so. This is what the Town should strive for all posts to be, in my opinion.
74 - Another post similar to Frog's 73, commenting on a few things
75 - Jumps on my wagon
76 - Mod post
77 - Another reasonless wagon post, jumping on to the new biggest wagon, right after the vote count, and attemps to put me at L-1
78 - Unvotes me to create a buffer in case of a scumkill
79 - Double post, since 78 wasn't under the hydra account
80 - Posts under the J-Scope account, doesn't vote me
81 - Revotes me.
82 - Pipes in out of nowhere, having done shit all in terms of posting all game, that she is willing to hammer me
83 - Useless double-post, since she didn't vote
84 - Points out how they think its better to hammer rather than unvote and start a new wagon, something I think is preposterous.
85 - Asks other people about how they feel about my wagon
86 - Points out how I'm active lurking, which I don't deny, but that he's waiting for something from me before voting me again
87 - Mod post
88 - 'I'm replacing in!' post
89 - Talks about wanting me hammered in 24 hours
90 - Thinks I'm Scum since Scum haven't killed someone to try and kill me, despite the fact I think I'm off of L-1.
91 - Wants me lynched for not posting
92 - Points out its probably better to focus on Alpha, yet votes me for not having said much in this game, putting me at L-1

---

All in all:

FoS: Poke, Zaphod, Wishbone, Pesco
Unvote, Vote: Ortohoops

[Incamnito]

I wonder what Tarlahindur would think about that so-called PBPA?

That aside, A&B, what exactly did youhope to accomplish with that post?
Were you trying to prove that you have read the game?
Because I see a lot of "PBP", and not so much "A".
I DEFINATELY don't see anything that any of us couldn't have simply read in 2 minutes.

Now..

I'm not going to be claiming in this post, since I haven't properly defended myself from the attacks on me,

Do you intend on defending yourself?
I think the only reason you aren't claiming is because you don't have a fake-claim supplied. As DGB is fond of saying... "

fabricating a good fakeclaim can take a lifetime.

"

[Death the Hogfather]

It needs to be said...as the Seraphim half of this hydra, I'm declaring mild V/LA for the next week and possibly beyond. Hopefully not too much longer.

[J-Scope]

That aside, A&B, what exactly did youhope to accomplish with that post?
Were you trying to prove that you have read the game?
Because I see a lot of "PBP", and not so much "A".

QFT.

31 - Strawmans my argument about heads vs hydras, and votes me for it, even though he claims to have a "gut scum read" on a RW post. FoS: Pesco Light

Is that really a strawman? He’s saying that you should be able to comment on whatever your other half said, which still allows the other half to enter in later and comment in their own words.

It sounded like you were originally trying to avoid having to make any acknowledgement for something your other half said. Scum would love to be able to get away with that; putting all the scumtells on one half but trying to keep the other respectable and the one you vote for or not.

68 - Explains that he thinks wasting posts isn't scummy, and that Scum actually probably won't do it...WHAT? I think he knows exactly if the Scum are or aren't wasting posts.

Do you have a different theory?

90 - Thinks I'm Scum since Scum haven't killed someone to try and kill me, despite the fact I think I'm off of L-1.

True, I don’t think that at any point you were in that danger, so it cannot be proven that you are scum because of that majority count that would affect your lynch.

[Raging Wishbone]

Apples, seriously, that was totally worthless. Claim or die please.

[Ortohoops]

68 - Explains that he thinks wasting posts isn't scummy, and that Scum actually probably won't do it...WHAT? I think he knows exactly if the Scum are or aren't wasting posts.

Unvote, Vote: Ortohoops

I've already explained my stance on the value of posts. We're not even 5 pages into the game and we almost have a lynch - the town should hypothetically be aiming for 2-3 lynches per action phase, and we should be able to do it comfortably.

Lets make a safe presumption and say we only lynch twice before page 13 - scum have had their kill, and the Sk/vig has one too. We're down to 10 players, and the next phase still has 10 pages, where we should easily be able to lynch 2-3 players again with more information in the game. I really think we don't need to be so hasty, and certainly don't think the basis of cases should be determined by their signal:noise ratio, unless it's substancial.

Now, addressing your post more specifically; every time you generate suspicion on someone, you're basing it on the thought that scum are more likely to do x than town. The way you come to the conclusion I'm scum, is on the basis of this logic. It's simple - I think scum are more likely to avoid fluff posting early on, and take the opposite stance.

It's an easy way to force suspicion on players - they're preying on the paranoia of the town. I don't think scum would be stupid enough to come in and make fluff posts to start the game. Why would they want the early attention when they don't even know how hasty the town is going to be with post wasting? It's a stupid risk to jump in the limelight like that, and it's even stupider to not be aware that fluff posts would put them under pressure.

This is why I think scum would take the stance of jumping on

anything

that could be interpretted as a slight waste.

[PokerFace]

Ok Poker here. Sorry for the low activity all around. I was sick and got behind at work a bit and Tajo has the Flu. I'll do what I can and if things get worse I'll let you know. Gonna try to post when both of us are online in the future.

@Adel&Claus a vote count may be good. Also your policy says you got to post asking it to get others prodded. You may want to allow people to pm you that stuff.

Pointing out possible Vigs helps the scum. Do you actually think RW is an SK?

I'm more just wondering where RWishbone cooked up those numbers. And we all know a vig is in the game, the knowledge he displayed would actually suggest he knows there isn't a vig in the game.

I can't say I understand your turn arround of logic here. There could be atleast 1 vidge or an SK.

If Incamnito was any more town, my eyes would implode.

I know what you're saying about A&B, but for these hydras I do not have yet enough information to get a read, and I'm confident I will be able to get a read eventually.

With the Swine Flu going around... this is definitely a lurker I want to rattle.

vote: Death the Hogfather

*DGB*

If you don't have a read, don't post and or waste your vote.

Random stage over.

Unvote: Trotsky

My main point is I don't think scum would blatantly draw attention to themself in such an obvious way - or rather, I don't think those spam posts were intentionally made to waste posts, when a recharge target is so far off. There is little to no scum motivation behind it.

In fact I'd suggest scum would more likely be the players most wary of this infraction. It's a simple way for them to sit back early and jump on someone for fluff posting, knowing that the town is paranoid of this. And, I think A&B is most guilty of this crime.

Now, addressing your post more specifically; every time you generate suspicion on someone,

you're basing it on the thought that scum are more likely to do x than town.

The way you come to the conclusion I'm scum, is on the basis of this logic. It's simple - I think scum are more likely to avoid fluff posting early on, and take the opposite stance.

It's an easy way to force suspicion on players - they're preying on the paranoia of the town. I don't think scum would be stupid enough to come in and make fluff posts to start the game. Why would they want the early attention when they don't even know how hasty the town is going to be with post wasting? It's a stupid risk to jump in the limelight like that, and it's even stupider to not be aware that fluff posts would put them under pressure.

This is why I think scum would take the stance of jumping on

anything

that could be interpretted as a slight waste.

I don't get this either. Part of the case being expressed on A&B is their posting wasn't really adding much to the game. Saying Scum wouldn't do it because they'd get attacked for being scummy is stupid. Scum are more likly to be scummy. If scum were never scummy, how would we catch them? You sound like you want to attack those that conserve posts and you don't certainly seem to be doing or voting for that. Like you're being a hypocrite. Also

What can you tell me about team ortohoops, pocketface?

Was there a point to this question?

Ftr, I'll be signing my posts.

- Incog.

Not really - more just playful banter before anything substancial develops. Are you going to tell me off for making a post that didn't contain an accusation?

let's save playful banter for other threads or games. I will do my part now if you will too.