Open 142: True Love (Game Over) before 784

[Kmd4390]

I know what you are saying. I am disagreeing.

[hohum]

Vote Count:

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch

sonicchaos1993(1) Dobonair Danny DiPietro
kirroha(0)
MiteyMouse(1) Percy
Percy(1) MiteyMouse
Debonair Danny DiPietro(1) sonicchaos1993
Korts(0)
ZazieR(1) Kmd4390
Kmd4390(1) Korts

Not Voting(2) kirroah, ZazieR

[Korts]

I WOULD LIKE OTHER PEOPLE TO CHIME IN NOW

[MiteyMouse]

Schtick votes are another form of random vote. Doesn't bother me in the least...neither does dice rolling. I mean, we are randomly voting right?

[sonicchaos1993]

I don't see all that much right now. Kmd and Korts seem to be making a big deal about the schtick vote.

Personally, I think we should be looking out for people who are really trying to get a lynch. Since the mafia's only weapon is the lynch, then the mafia members will most likely be trying to lynch whenever they can. Also, the setup as said in the Queue said that there would be 3 town/town pairs and 2 town/scum pairs, so if somebody is found scum, then their lover cannot be sucm also.

Unvote

, and random

Vote: Korts

Korts, kmd, please explain the big deal over one schtick vote.

@hohum: kirroah voted me.

[Percy]

Some people think the RVS is there to get us out of the RVS as quickly as possible; someone jumps on the first player to do anything that can be mildly construed as anti-town, and then we start talking about the ensuing bandwagon/desire to move out of the RVS/whatever.

I'm not one of those people. I think the RVS is a good way to start conversations. Anyone who thinks that they have anything more than the weakest read on someone at this point is playing with information that the town just doesn't have. The RVS sees people getting votes for reasons they can't fathom, and this leads to panic and irrational play, scum's desire to focus on particular players and so forth, from which we deduce scumtells. Given enough time we can start to build sensible cases, rather than getting out of the RVS with the first knee-jerk case that crops up, leaving most of the playerbase completely ignored.

So, what have we got so far?

There are two votes on the table that I would consider worthy of attention.

The first:
Kmd voted for Zazier, and there is reasonable meta to say that he would always vote Zazier in the RVS (and Kmd has conceded as much). Korts is correct in saying that this vote is not constructive - it produces no information for the town if you were to vote for Zazier whether you're scum with her, scum without her, or town. Thus Kmd's first vote was not used to produce information, it was simply so that Kmd could be seen to be voting.

Korts has described it as anti-town, when I would say it's just not pro-town. Korts has voted Kmd as a result of this exchange. I believe this situation can be (mostly) resolved when Kmd votes for someone else; or, he could stubbornly cling to his vote on Zazier, and if he decides to do so, I'd like to hear more detailed reasons as to why this will produce good info for the town.


The second:
sonicchaos has put down a vote on Korts and

described

it as random, when it's quite hard not to see it as a pressure vote. sonic, was there any reason you voted Korts rather than Kmd?

(Sidenote: There are

2

town/town pairs and 2 scum/town pairs, but sonic's observation that we don't have a scum/scum pair is accurate.)

Unvote
Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

[Kmd4390]

Percy, why DDD?

[Percy]

Because Teller is more awesome than Penn.

Kmd, why didn't you address the rest of my post?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I disagree with Korts and Percy's contention that Kmd's vote didn't supply us with information, it let us know that Kmd is playing to his meta. This may or may not be useful information, but it's not significantly more or less information than any other random vote would.

Furthermore Percy is wrong because Penn is both larger and louder than Teller making him significantly more awesome.

[Kmd4390]

Because Teller is more awesome than Penn.

Kmd, why didn't you address the rest of my post?

I don't see anything more I need to say about it.

Why jokevote when you have real stuff to base a vote on?

[Percy]

Did you even read my post?

I think the RVS is a good way to start conversations. Anyone who thinks that they have anything more than the weakest read on someone at this point is playing with information that the town just doesn't have. The RVS sees people getting votes for reasons they can't fathom, and this leads to panic and irrational play, scum's desire to focus on particular players and so forth, from which we deduce scumtells.

Given enough time we can start to build sensible cases, rather than getting out of the RVS with the first knee-jerk case that crops up, leaving most of the playerbase completely ignored

.

How about I quote the other part that you've ignored twice now:

I believe this situation can be (mostly) resolved when Kmd votes for someone else; or, he could stubbornly cling to his vote on Zazier, and if he decides to do so, I'd like to hear more detailed reasons as to why this will produce good info for the town.

---

I disagree with Korts and Percy's contention that Kmd's vote didn't supply us with information, it let us know that Kmd is playing to his meta. This may or may not be useful information, but it's not significantly more or less information than any other random vote would.

I very much doubt that it will be useful information, which is my point - the "always vote Zazier" is not a useful pro-town meta to have established.

[kirroha]

Quite a lot has happened when I was sleeping and taking my exams. I'm going to read through; it's lunch break now.

[kirroha]

Actually, I think it might be better if we try to list out the most possible scum pairs (not lover pairs) and rank them, as well as the most possible scummy people and rank them as well. It might be more productive if we do it that way, since we know well that in a lover pair, it is not possible for both people to be scum at the same time, so if both of them act scummy, it might confuse us.

Like for example, I can rank the possible scum pairs in one column and the scummiest people in the other column. Since in a lover game, every lynch is very important, and it's quite bad to mislynch, since two mislynches lets scum win. (as long as the mislynches are not on the scum's lovers)

Will that work?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I disagree with Korts and Percy's contention that Kmd's vote didn't supply us with information, it let us know that Kmd is playing to his meta. This may or may not be useful information, but it's not significantly more or less information than any other random vote would.

I very much doubt that it will be useful information, which is my point - the "always vote Zazier" is not a useful pro-town meta to have established.

While I agree that it's not terribly helpful; provided it is a consistent behavior it isn't really an actionable item. Voting and/or lynching anti-town behavior instead of scummy behavior might improve overall site meta but it's also a recipe for losing plenty of games in the process.

Quite a lot has happened when I was sleeping and taking my exams. I'm going to read through; it's lunch break now.

Exaggeration thy name is kirroha.

[kirroha]

Exaggeration thy name is kirroha.

Quite a lot as compared to what happened before in other games. This one progresses pretty quickly.

[kirroha]

I WOULD LIKE OTHER PEOPLE TO CHIME IN NOW

DING-A-LING-A-DING-A-LING-DONG!

/capsrapegalore

[sonicchaos1993]

I voted Korts and not kmd because
1. From what Ive heard, kmd does it every game, so I don't see how it could be considered a scumtell, unless kmd was mafia every time it happened.
2. I don't want to die day 1.

[MiteyMouse]

Actually, I think it might be better if we try to list out the most possible scum pairs (not lover pairs) and rank them, as well as the most possible scummy people and rank them as well. It might be more productive if we do it that way, since we know well that in a lover pair, it is not possible for both people to be scum at the same time, so if both of them act scummy, it might confuse us.

Like for example, I can rank the possible scum pairs in one column and the scummiest people in the other column. Since in a lover game, every lynch is very important, and it's quite bad to mislynch, since two mislynches lets scum win. (as long as the mislynches are not on the scum's lovers)

Will that work?

This is an interesting idea. It might just be me but, perhaps we need to just list the Scummiest people and see how they fall into the pairings. I just think it might be hard to rank a pair of people. That being said, ranking the pair might get us more info.

Since our pairings are public, we also have to worry about the Scum trying to possible save Townies or bus Townies. We may have to look at this in pairs as opposed to individuals...I'm not used to this set up.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY DDD!

[Kmd4390]

Did you even read my post?

I think the RVS is a good way to start conversations. Anyone who thinks that they have anything more than the weakest read on someone at this point is playing with information that the town just doesn't have. The RVS sees people getting votes for reasons they can't fathom, and this leads to panic and irrational play, scum's desire to focus on particular players and so forth, from which we deduce scumtells.

Given enough time we can start to build sensible cases, rather than getting out of the RVS with the first knee-jerk case that crops up, leaving most of the playerbase completely ignored

.

Yeah, I read it. But aren't "knee-jerk" cases the thing that leads to "sensible cases"? Also, isn't a knee-jerk vote better than random voting?

How about I quote the other part that you've ignored twice now:

I believe this situation can be (mostly) resolved when Kmd votes for someone else; or, he could stubbornly cling to his vote on Zazier, and if he decides to do so, I'd like to hear more detailed reasons as to why this will produce good info for the town.

I didn't ignore it. I'll put my vote where I want to put it. My vote will give info when I feel there is info to give. Right now, I don't have suspicions yet. You and Korts both seem pretty townie and no one else has done much.

Will that work?

I actually like this idea.

2. I don't want to die day 1.

If you are town, you should look just as closely at me as you look at anyone else. If you are scum, you want to keep me alive whatever it takes. This kind of looks like the second..

This is an interesting idea. It might just be me but, perhaps we need to just list the Scummiest people and see how they fall into the pairings. I just think it might be hard to rank a pair of people. That being said, ranking the pair might get us more info.

Since our pairings are public, we also have to worry about the Scum trying to possible save Townies or bus Townies. We may have to look at this in pairs as opposed to individuals...I'm not used to this set up.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY DDD!

So... You said:
Interesting idea.
but need to list scummiest people and see how they fall into pairings.
ranking pairs gets more info.
not used to this setup.

Did you even take a stance there or just post a lot of nothing to look active?

Unvote, Vote Mitey

Scummiest thing in the early parts of this game.

[Korts]

Korts, kmd, please explain the big deal over one schtick vote.

It is not a big deal, there is simply no bigger deal to discuss.

And yes, Kmd's initial vote is a null-tell for alignment, and he played to his meta; but it definitely isn't helpful to town, using a cop out of actually arbitrary voting by having a schtick vote.

For early game discussion starter purposes "anti-town" is as good a substitute as any for "scummy".

Kmd: do you actually think that Percy's post, taking a middle of the road stance on every issue that was brought up, would be a reasonable basis for any non-joke post?

BTW note that Percy's post took a middle of the road stance on every issue that was brought up. On the fence is a good spot for scum to be enjoying the view from.

[Korts]

If you are town, you should look just as closely at me as you look at anyone else. If you are scum, you want to keep me alive whatever it takes. This kind of looks like the second..

Actually, every townie has more reason to be looking at their own partners than every other lover pair. Here are the numbers: each townie has a 50 percent chance of being paired with scum; the other 50 percent of the time scum are spread between 2 of 3 other pairs, making every other pair's chances of being half-scum without your own partner being one 2/3rds of 50 percent as opposed to 50 percent.

[Korts]

Triple post: I like Kmd's vote.

unvote, vote: MiteyMouse

[Kmd4390]

This is actually the first game where my vote on Zazie has been called anti-town.

But anyway.

Kmd: do you actually think that Percy's post, taking a middle of the road stance on every issue that was brought up, would be a reasonable basis for any non-joke post?

I thought there was enough information that he covered that he could have voted. He could have voted me for an "anti-town" vote. He could have voted you for your reaction to it. He could have voted Sonic for voting you. He could have voted someone for lurking. Sure, non of these are reasons to lynch. But all four of these votes would have brought up some discussion and some debate. Random voting when he did really didn't.

And on a second read, I see a lot of IIOA in that post of Percy's that you mentioned. It looks like he's just recapping the game and not really adding anything to it.

[Korts]

This is actually the first game where my vote on Zazie has been called anti-town.

But anyway.

If I manage to get into another game with you and Zazie I'm making it my schtick to vote you for your schtick vote.

[kirroha]

I still think that I should look in terms of possible scum pairings instead of just scummy people, so I guess I'll post about what I think about each pairing now.

Platonic (changed by request) Pairings
kirroha/MiteyMouse
Debonair Danny DiPietro/ZazieR
Percy/Korts
sonicchaos1993/Kmd4390

Lol, since when did it change to platonic XD

Anyway, the point of me putting this post on is to show to the others that one of these pairings listed down here is the right one, which can win us the game. Also, instead of just looking at one player's scumminess, we can look at how these players' interactions can show their relationship as scum. I don't know about all of you - this is just how I like to play.

So I'll start from the front, and here are the possibilities:

Kirroha/DDD-Kirroha/Zazie-Kirroha/Percy-Kirroha/Korts-Kirroha/sonicchaos1993-Kirroha/Kmd4390-Mitey/DDD-Mitey/Zaz-Mitey/Percy-Mitey/Korts-Mitey/soni-Mitey/Kmd-DDD/Percy-DDD/Korts-DDD/soni-DDD/Kmd-Zaz/Percy-Zaz/Korts-Zaz/soni-Zaz/Kmd-Percy/soni-Percy/Kmd-Korts/soni-Korts/Kmd

See, now that you all look at it - there aren't that many for us to pick from, unlike what we might have assumed previously. I think this can greatly increase our productivity, since instead of trying to analyze somebody's scummy actions, we can actually analyze the interactions between two different people before determining if they are scum. Thus, we approach the problem in a different way - finding scum from scummy relationships instead of scummy behaviour. Since many townies can accidentally do something wrong and act scummy, he will be picked on pretty quickly without much to defend himself with. But as long as there doesn't seem to be a possible partner for him, the suspicions on him might lessen according to this method. Thus, we might be able to find even the cleverest scum this way.