Newbie 807 - Game Over

[ChannelDelibird]

Snow White, I think you should hammer.

[ChannelDelibird]

And by that I mean, don't you dare do it yourself, DTF.

[Snow White]

Not to speak on behalf of the devil but my vote is not the only one up for debate DTF.

bgg1996 still has a vote on me.

He's as hammer happy as anyone i think. And im curious as to why you dont think he would not hammer you DTF? And im not saying he should!

Im not really sure which one of you to believe.

I certainly believe the last remaining mafia is cunning enough to try to frame me to begin with but then this could equally be another frame. Which means CDB is either an incredible genious and DTF is telling the truth or the other way around.

I would like to hear from CancerBottle as i believe he is town and i can take his word. I am unsure of the rest of you. CDB, DTF and bgg1996.

[dothefandango]

You're trying to force a play on Snow White. Don't do that. When it comes out that I am town, you have NO ONE but yourself to blame. If you were scum, you would be smart enough to realize that this sort of persecution can only lead to your demise if I am a townie. Everyone is following YOUR lead. This is on your head man. When you guys go at the mafia 2v1, I wish you the best of luck.

[ChannelDelibird]

You're trying to force a play on Snow White. Don't do that. When it comes out that I am town, you have NO ONE but yourself to blame. If you were scum, you would be smart enough to realize that this sort of persecution can only lead to your demise if I am a townie. Everyone is following YOUR lead. This is on your head man. When you guys go at the mafia 2v1, I wish you the best of luck.

Of course I'm trying to influence Snow White, I think you're scum and I think we can win the game by lynching you. Yes, I could be wrong, and I'm not ruling it out, but there's always tomorrow on that off chance. Don't Appeal to Emotion me with this stuff about "this isn't smart if you're scum" and "it's all on your head". No, it's not. If you get lynched it'll be by majority, and if someone makes a vote that's just following my lead then I'll pick them up on it.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also, Snow White, I'm actually

both

truthful

and

an incredible genius! =D

[dothefandango]

It wasn't majority when Kard was lynched? And that is on my head now. Your reasoning, as "tight" as you think it is, is based on me making a mistake the first day. It happens, people make bad plays. But further, it was the first day. Kard seemed suspicious, I gave in to poor reasoning in my own head, and voted for him without reasoning. He dropped the hammer ON HIMSELF.

It makes no sense for me to vote for Kichirou to "throw him under a bus" when in that situation if I voted for say, CP, bgg would have followed suit and a townie would have been gone. You can throw all your theory at me, but it doesn't always work. This is a case of you making a mountain out of molehill, still.

[dothefandango]

If bgg were to hammer me, I think everyone's first suspicion should be him, for all the reasons CDB has about me. But that's speaking in such profound hypotheticals I don't even want to bother myself with it.

[bgg1996]

I don't want to be prodded.

I have logical reasons for voting snow white, that I can't tell you.

Also,

There is no reason bgg would ever do that, when he is in a complete position to NOT vote in his confidant. Also, I had hoped that Kichirou's guilt would get you off my case and realize that Kard's voting process was a joke, but I guess not.

Vote: SNOW WHITE

Let's end this.

You seemed quite sure about voting snow white before, what made you change your mind?

I'm not saying you're scum, I just want answers

[dothefandango]

I took my vote off because if a mafia quicklynched her, I would be blamed. I know I didn't give into this reasoning at first, but I thought it over and realized that this could really backfire if I don't pull back. She didn't drop the hammer when she had the chance, so seemingly, under all intents and purposes, she's not looking to quicklynch. Of course, she could just be covering for that fact as well.

It's all very confounding, and I want to just go with my gut and vote with her, but with every action I have, CDB finds a reason to make it scummy.

[bgg1996]

Speaking of which, why didn't the mafia kill the little IC?
That's right, I want some answers from you this time CDB.
Don't take it personnally, I'll do it to everyone. It's just to clear false suspicions.
1. Why didn't the mafia kill the IC rather than mejifan, and crazypianist?
2. Why are you so obsessed with killing me and dothefandango?
3. Why can't I think of a third question?

[dothefandango]

Predicted CDB responce: "Of course, now DTF wants to turn this around on me, typical scum theory." Kidding.

[Snow White]

OMFG THIS

IS THE SECOND TIME

BGG1996 HAS LEFT SOME VAGUE THREAT THAT HE IS COP.

I have logical reasons for voting snow white, that I can't tell you.

WELL BUDDY YOU CANT BE COP CAUSE IF YOU INVESTIGATED ME YOU'D KNOW IM INNOCENT.

vote bgg1996

Logical reason bullshit. Im innocent.

Share your glorious "insight". Because i think your just hoping we didnt get the set up with the cop and are expecting us to trust you blindly.

-DTF is scummy because he voted me. I appeared to be a scapegoat after CP was NK'd. When before he seemed to believe that it was plausible i was framed.
-Bgg is scummy because of these stupid threats he's making.

And yes DTF why wouldnt you try to turn it around to CDB if you were scum?

[bgg1996]

I NEVER SAID I WAS A COP $&#^*$^!
I am not a cop.
If I told the mafia my ingenious plan, then it would be ruined!

I would already be telling you too much if I said the mafia frames you every night.

You want me to unvote you?
f***ing ask politely.

[dothefandango]

Snow White, you want the heat off you then you do crazy things like that.

[dothefandango]

And yes DTF why wouldnt you try to turn it around to CDB if you were scum?

If I understood this correctly, then my answer is pretty simple. I'm not scum, so I'm not turning it on him? I don't understand what you are saying, or your reasoning.

At this time, I don't really know what's going on. So, I'm going to be honest and just say what exactly I'm thinking.

I want to vote for Snow White, but doing so might provoke you to vote for me and thus kill me. I also want to vote for CDB, but I can't tell if this is a OMGUS vote or a definite hunch that CDB is scum. The weirdest, and most difficult part to analyze comes in the fact that Snow White has all these weird things that happen around her, but she claims she has to have no hand in anything. It's either too weird to be true, or it's being made to seem too weird to be false. Someone would need to be feeding on Snow White to keep themselves out of the limelight.

But, here's what I've concluded: I know I'm a townie. That's about it.

[ChannelDelibird]

I want to make a big long post now, there's a lot of stuff to respond to, but the sound of my typing carries loudly in the building I'm currently staying in and I don't want to wake anyone up (it's 11:50 PM in my timezone), so it will have to wait 'til morning.

Don't lynch anyone, even DTF, until I've been able to post it, please.

[dothefandango]

Just came across this: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... lage_Idiot

HMM?

[Snow White]

Im not rising to any more bait. If anyone has anything to ask me i will answer it tomorrow if by that time im not dead.

I will however

unvote bgg1996

until CDB's post.

[ChannelDelibird]

It wasn't majority when Kard was lynched? And that is on my head now. Your reasoning, as "tight" as you think it is, is based on me making a mistake the first day. It happens, people make bad plays. But further, it was the first day. Kard seemed suspicious, I gave in to poor reasoning in my own head, and voted for him without reasoning. He dropped the hammer ON HIMSELF.

I'm not saying the entire Kard lynch is on you. I'm just saying that the way you put him at lynch-1 for no reason was extremely suspicious. That's not the only reason I'm voting for you, either - I pointed out at the start of the day that you were trying to pretend that your behaviour wasn't relevant anymore because it happened two days ago, which strongly suggests you were scared of other people latching onto that behaviour. I am NOT blaming Kard's selfvote on you, that was Kard's mistake alone, but in the quote above you admit to putting him in a dangerous position without good reason, and even if Kard hadn't selfhammered, that would still have been suspicious.

It makes no sense for me to vote for Kichirou to "throw him under a bus" when in that situation if I voted for say, CP, bgg would have followed suit and a townie would have been gone. You can throw all your theory at me, but it doesn't always work. This is a case of you making a mountain out of molehill, still.

This doesn't make sense. You didn't know bgg was going to just hammer to get on with the game, and if you did, the pro-town move would have been to not allow him to do so. It's quite plausible that you could have been bussing Kichirou, in order to use exactly this argument ("look, I got a mafia lynched! I

can't

be scum!") to make people think you're town.

-----

In other news, Snow White is quite right to react in the way she did to bgg's vague hints. They looked a lot like a cop trying to intimate a guilty investigation (and if we DO have a cop with a guilty, come out now and we can win the game), but as bgg's since specified that he is not a cop, then

bgg - you must explain yourself

. If you're not a cop, then there is no information you can have which can't or shouldn't be shared with the town. Any "plan" you had can't work now because you've drawn attention to it. Explain this in your next post, because otherwise it's just going to look like you're lying scum trying (and failing) to convince people to vote Snow White for a secret (read: no) reason.

-----

DTF, I don't think

everything

you've done is scummy. Far from it. It's only to do with your lynch-1 vote and your attempts to ignore the issue earlier today. Things that I mentioned on Day 2 are no longer valid reasons to suspect you because they were more to do with either you and bgg being scumbuddies or Kichirou being town, both of which are no longer possible. So I don't find your unvote of Snow White suspicious, to reply to your post 309.

-----

Speaking of which, why didn't the mafia kill the little IC?
That's right, I want some answers from you this time CDB.
Don't take it personnally, I'll do it to everyone. It's just to clear false suspicions.
1. Why didn't the mafia kill the IC rather than mejifan, and crazypianist?
2. Why are you so obsessed with killing me and dothefandango?
3. Why can't I think of a third question?

1. There are plenty of reasons why this could be the case (though as I've said repeatedly this game, though, trying to figure out the scum's thinking on the nightkills is murky WIFOM territory): for example, it's quite possible that I've been left alive because the scum were hoping that someone would make exactly the post that you just did, implicating me. It's also possible that for whatever reason the scum thought Meji or CP might be threats later, or that they thought they could frame someone else by killing those particular people, or that Meji looked at them a bit funny, or that the scum have an irrational hatred of people whose usernames end in 'pianist'. There are a lot of possible reasons, and we have no way of deciding with any certainty at all which is the more likely.

2. I'm not "obsessed", but thanks for picking a word that suggests that I shouldn't be listened to. I've given reasons why I think that one of you and DTF is most likely to be the last remaining mafia, currently with DTF being the more likely candidate in my opinion, and hence I want to lynch DTF. I'm not ignoring other possibilities, but I think you two are the most likely.

-----

Just came across this: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... lage_Idiot

HMM?

Are you implying that you're a VI or that Snow White is?

-----

Also, DTF, if you think I might be scum, by all means vote for me, but you need to do it the right way. The fact that you're aware you might just be OMGUSing is a good sign, because if you know it's possible you can avoid it. If you're suspicious, look back through my posts and actions and decide

whether I'm more likely to have done what I've done as scum or as town

. I can't be scum just because I'm voting for you (I'm not the only one voting for you, after all), so you need to analyse

why

I'm voting for you and decide whether my actions are representative of a town player (that is to say: am I genuinely trying to find scum? Can you understand why a town player might be voting for you, and is that consistent with my reasoning? Am I making the vote I think is right, even if it would be easier to vote for someone else?). Obviously, I believe the answers to all of those questions are yes, but it's for you to decide.

-----

Also, I want to hear more from CancerBottle. He's lurking.

[dothefandango]

I was claiming that I was the village idiot, in this case.

[bgg1996]

In other news, Snow White is quite right to react in the way she did to bgg's vague hints. They looked a lot like a cop trying to intimate a guilty investigation (and if we DO have a cop with a guilty, come out now and we can win the game), but as bgg's since specified that he is not a cop, then

bgg - you must explain yourself

. If you're not a cop, then there is no information you can have which can't or shouldn't be shared with the town. Any "plan" you had can't work now because you've drawn attention to it. Explain this in your next post, because otherwise it's just going to look like you're lying scum trying (and failing) to convince people to vote Snow White for a secret (read: no) reason.

Fine.
It was a stupid plan anyway.
Speaking of which, since the plan cannot work after the mafia reads this post,

I unvote snow white

, but fos:CDB, you read the fact that if the mafia found out my plan, it would be ruined. After everyone else but cancerbottle posted, you were the only one to demand to know what it was. Of course my plan would only work if snow white actually got lynched, sooo. I will now take a break from why I suspect CDB to tell you my plan.It's in the spoiler.

I noticed every night snow white got framed. After that I started to wonder what would happen if snow white got lynched. Again, I will remind you, that I since realized it was a stupid plan, because I came to the conclusion that the mafia would frame someone else. The mafia, of course, does not have to frame someone else. But since I didn't realize that at the time, I believed I could determine the mafia by who they framed. And remember, next round, NO VOTING!!!!!

Now that I've told you my plan, I will go on to tell you why I suspect CDB.
He suspects me, and dothefandango, and since DTF is probably die-ing today, that leaves me as his top suspect (And if DTF turns out to be evil, it doesn't matter who I suspect, because the game would be over), and I know myself to be good. Don't you find it a little coincidental that his top suspects_me and DTF_ aren't lynched OR night killed till the 2nd-last day phase, assuming DTF is lynched. You're an IC, so if you were mafia, you could hide it pretty well, and I STILL find it strange you were never killed.

My top suspects are you and snow white, and may I add, never once did snow white vote a mafia.

Also, Snow white, for your own good, list all of the possibly scummy things you did, and say why they aren't true. Trust me, the more there are, the less scummy you'll seem.

[ChannelDelibird]

Fine.
It was a stupid plan anyway.

Yes.

Speaking of which, since the plan cannot work after the mafia reads this post,

I unvote snow white

, but fos:CDB, you read the fact that if the mafia found out my plan, it would be ruined.

I've already said that it was you that ruined your "plan", not me, by drawing attention to it. There was no way any self-respecting town could have allowed you to get away with saying "I can't tell you why I'm doing this, but I'm not a cop" without explaining yourself, because there was no super-secret information you could have had. Ergo, as soon as you said it, you'd ruined it because you were always going to have to explain, so don't pin this on me because I was the one who asked you to.

After everyone else but cancerbottle posted, you were the only one to demand to know what it was.

Is my reasoning wrong? No.
Are the other players who posted newbies and therefore possibly not aware of why it was important you explained yourself? Yes.

I noticed every night snow white got framed. After that I started to wonder what would happen if snow white got lynched. Again, I will remind you, that I since realized it was a stupid plan, because I came to the conclusion that the mafia would frame someone else. The mafia, of course, does not have to frame someone else. But since I didn't realize that at the time, I believed I could determine the mafia by who they framed. And remember, next round, NO VOTING!!!!!

Whoops, I unspoilered it. No-one's *not* gonna read it, anyway.

So, uh, yes, it's a bit of a stupid plan, because it relies entirely on conjecture about why people were nightkilled (I've continually given reasons why that sort of thing isn't reliable for scumhunting). So since you're aware that it's a stupid plan, why did you give me a FoS for supposedly ruining it? (as I've said above, you were the one that ruined it anyway)

Now that I've told you my plan, I will go on to tell you why I suspect CDB.
He suspects me, and dothefandango, and since DTF is probably dying today, that leaves me as his top suspect (And if DTF turns out to be evil, it doesn't matter who I suspect, because the game would be over), and I know myself to be good.

Clearly one of you is town. That much is obvious. Do you think I think you're

both

scum or something? O.o And why am I likely to be scum just because I suspect you and "you know you're town"? The whole point is that the town don't know who each other are, so town players suspect each other all the time. This is a non-argument.

Don't you find it a little coincidental that his top suspects_me and DTF_ aren't lynched OR night killed till the 2nd-last day phase, assuming DTF is lynched.

This makes no sense either. You seem to be assuming the following:

1) that I've been suspicious of you and DTF from the very start of the game.
2) that I could have either of them lynched at any time just because I wanted to.
3) that I am somehow responsible for their not being nightkilled.

Here is why the above are not true:

1) I first expressed suspicion of DTF at the start of Day 2 (since I wasn't online at the time he made his lynch-1 vote on Kard, which was at the end of Day 1). I only seriously considered you as scum from your hammer vote at the end of Day 2, and consequently the start of today. I hadn't established clearly defined suspicions yet when Day 1 abruptly ended. So, your point that I've apparently been after you two the whole game is wrong.

2) Of course I couldn't just have one of you lynched at any time just because I wanted to - if that were the case, DTF would have died a lot earlier, probably yesterday. I'm just one of the players in this game, and it requires a majority to lynch. Sure, I'm trying to persuade people to agree with me, because I agree with me, but that doesn't mean that I am responsible for the fact that neither of you have died yet. In fact, it suggests the opposite - I've been arguing for DTF particularly to die for two game days now, so it's pretty much down to everyone else that he hasn't died yet.

3) This is unfair, because you are *assuming* that I am mafia and not including the possibility that I am town. For someone who's put so much stock into this whole "framing" business with regard to the nightkills, I find it ridiculous that you are so narrow-minded when it comes to how you think the nightkills make me look.

You're an IC, so if you were mafia, you could hide it pretty well, and I STILL find it strange you were never killed.

Being more experienced doesn't automatically make me a better player. I'm fine with you reading my play in this game and some of my other old games if you like, and judging my ability personally, but it's a lazy argument to say "all ICs must be better at mafia".

Also, it's not enough for you to just say I'd be good at hiding it if I were mafia. That's using the Too Townie argument, where you accuse someone of being so pro-town, that they must be scum. It's a logical fallacy - if I look pro-town, I'm more likely to be pro-town. Unless you can find actual posts that I've made that are more likely to be made by scum than town (and, please, feel free to look), then you have no real reason to suspect me. It's just IC-fear, and it's baseless.

I'm going to repeat this, because it's something everyone needs to understand:

The only way you can judge whether you think people are scum or not is by finding posts that they've made that are scummy.

Not fear of someone's reputation (whether it's earned or not, I'm not going to judge my own ability as a player, that's up to you), not WIFOM based on a million possible reasons why Player X got killed at night rather than Player Y, but actual things they've said and done that are more likely to have been said and done by someone looking to blend in, to mislead the town, rather than someone looking to hunt the scum.

I genuinely believe that I have spent this game asking questions of people, picking them up only on things they've said and done in the thread, making them answer and explain themselves, to try and determine who is more likely to be scum. If any of you think I've been trying to blend in, or mislead the town,

find a post of mine that backs up that theory

. I'll be happy to explain myself, because I have nothing to hide.

My top suspects are you and snow white, and may I add, never once did snow white vote a mafia.

You mean, never once did Snow White vote for a *confirmed* mafia. She may well have voted for the other mafia, but we don't know who that is yet. This is an unfair argument to use on her (and also, I never voted for Kichirou either. We can't both be scum).

Also, Snow white, for your own good, list all of the possibly scummy things you did, and say why they aren't true. Trust me, the more there are, the less scummy you'll seem.

No, it's not up to her to find what she thinks might be scummy about herself, because she will believe everything she's done is pro-town. You have to tell her what you found scummy, and then she can respond to them.

[ChannelDelibird]

Mod: can we get a prod on CancerBottle, please?

It's been nearly a week since his last post.

[Xtoxm]

CB prodded.