You are commenting on the setup, but you are ignoring the early wagon or for that matter, any other scumhunting attempts.
Felt more important to speak out against the colour claim than comment on what looks like a normal D1 wagon. Not sure what the "other scumhunting attempts" you refer to are supposed to be.
--
LG: And where do we get a confirmed innocent today? As far as I can see, we only know there's at least one bellhop of unspecified alignment.
I'm also not seeing how, IF we had a confirmed innocent and locked the floor he was on, it would be in any way advantageous to find out who else is on that floor today rather than much later.
The man in the tweed suit slowly walks into the room from a wall rubbing his temples. He waits a few seconds for the conversation to stop, grows impatient, and shoots into the ceiling to shut the room up.
"I'm not sure what is so complicated about this. All I ask is that you give me each others' hearts. But if it will move things along:
"
1.)
When a Floor is locked,
every room on that Floor is considered to be locked
. This is explained in
Special Rule #4
, which I will remind you is conveniently written on the West Wall for easy reference:
Special Rule #4 wrote:
4.)
If a player is in a locked floor (or in a locked room), they cannot take any actions which require them to leave their room (this includes killing roles) that night. If a player is on a locked floor (or in a locked room), they cannot be targeted by actions which require their door to be opened (this includes killing roles) that night.
"
2.)
Nothing happens with a 'room with nobody in it'; my Hotel has thirteen rooms on each Floor in order to accommodate all of my splendid guests should they all be on the same Floor. Although I suppose the thirteenth room is no longer needed.
"If you were asking something else, be more specific. I'm only as helpful as I need to be. And right now I have little incentive to be helpful. Why isn't somebody dead yet? It would be just my luck to have recruited a bunch of pacifists..."
~
"Mr. Flay, I think I will need your presence for just a while longer. After that, please relieve Lucien from Sniper Seat #12. I'm going to get some aspirin."
TDC wrote:LG: And where do we get a confirmed innocent today? As far as I can see, we only know there's at least one bellhop of unspecified alignment.
Okay, so the scum take the chance that there's no town bellhop, or we get a confirmed bellhop, or there are two. Only SpyreX is that ballsy. Long term, man, long term.
(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough
Any bellhop claiming right now sounds like a bad plan. There is no incentive for a scum-aligned bellhop to counterclaim on Day 1, and a town-aligned bellhop that outs him or herself today will be biting the night kill if a scum-aligned bellhop exists. That play is combined mod guessing and a coin flip.
HI ELMO.
So high, so low, so many things to know.
aim:gochat?roomname=ScumChat&Exchange=5
TDC wrote:Felt more important to speak out against the colour claim than comment on what looks like a normal D1 wagon. Not sure what the "other scumhunting attempts" you refer to are supposed to be.
I dont think we would of ever really color claimed, it has no real advantages because scum know where everyone is after we do that.
Even if you think that it was important to comment on, you still are not really doing any scumhunting, or reacting to anyone who has done any. I dont want to have a game that we spend the first week of a fixed deadline trying to figure out if we can break the setup, or what the best time to claim is, and then not have the maximum time to lynch.
So any thought on anything apart from breaking the game yet?
Nuwen wrote:Any bellhop claiming right now sounds like a bad plan. There is no incentive for a scum-aligned bellhop to counterclaim on Day 1, and a town-aligned bellhop that outs him or herself today will be biting the night kill if a scum-aligned bellhop exists. That play is combined mod guessing and a coin flip.
This actually isn't true. We can protect a town-aligned bellhop every single night, even if a scum bellhop is moving them around.
Nuwen wrote:Any bellhop claiming right now sounds like a bad plan. There is no incentive for a scum-aligned bellhop to counterclaim on Day 1, and a town-aligned bellhop that outs him or herself today will be biting the night kill if a scum-aligned bellhop exists. That play is combined mod guessing and a coin flip.
This actually isn't true. We can protect a town-aligned bellhop every single night, even if a scum bellhop is moving them around.
How? I'm under the impression that bellhops can't self-target to negate another hop's actions ("Doing this will allow you to change the information in the Hotel computer such that it will order a
guest
to be transferred onto another floor the following morning"). Even if we lock a claimed bellhop on a floor, he or she can be pulled out again if another is present.
So high, so low, so many things to know.
aim:gochat?roomname=ScumChat&Exchange=5
Nuwen wrote:Any bellhop claiming right now sounds like a bad plan. There is no incentive for a scum-aligned bellhop to counterclaim on Day 1, and a town-aligned bellhop that outs him or herself today will be biting the night kill if a scum-aligned bellhop exists. That play is combined mod guessing and a coin flip.
This actually isn't true. We can protect a town-aligned bellhop every single night, even if a scum bellhop is moving them around.
How? I'm under the impression that bellhops can't self-target to negate another hop's actions ("Doing this will allow you to change the information in the Hotel computer such that it will order a
guest
to be transferred onto another floor the following morning"). Even if we lock a claimed bellhop on a floor, he or she can be pulled out again if another is present.
They don't get pulled out until morning. So the following day, we can just lock down the floor the confirmed town bellhop got swapped to.
I'm opposed to any claiming ideas, we have no idea how many bellhops of any alignment there are and asking for a claim from them seems like a foolish outguess the mod attempt. I think LlamaFluff said all that needed to be said about a colorclaim in his first sentence of 108.
Lord Gurgi wrote:Okay, so the scum take the chance that there's no town bellhop, or we get a confirmed bellhop, or there are two. Only SpyreX is that ballsy. Long term, man, long term.
Okay, so you want to bellhop-claim and then lock a floor with a claimed bellhop on it. Will think about that.
But why do you want
everyone
to color claim?
LlamaFluff wrote:So any thought on anything apart from breaking the game yet?
This is the exact same question I ask myself before posting, so it's not going to work wonders. If you have anything specific in mind, just ask about that.
I think it's important to know what the heck is up. If we're moving people into a certain floor, we don't know if people are being moved back and forth and in what quantities, unless they claim, and we don't know if they're telling the truth. I don't feel comfortable with individual cases claiming without a baseline from which to work. It seems to me like the scum benefit from everyone being in the dark. The scum could be moving themselves from floor to floor, we don't know, the best thing we can do is try to pin everyone down, every day, on record, as being on a particular floor. I don't think that we have a good chance of using the lock to our benefit unless we at least attempt to bind the scum to something. Unless we all claim our colours every day, we will be carrying water in a bucket without a bottom. Every person we move onto the safe floor will be moved off the very next day, and the crummy part is, unless we claim ahead of time, the first inkling we have of it, will be on their corpse the next day. I mean, the extent of how badly this could go unless we do is horrifying. If people don't claim, the mafia will be running around behind the scenes undermining our plans. As we plan to lock out a floor, they cackle because they know there's only one guy on that floor. As we plan to lock out a floor we think are filled with scummy people, they cackle because they know it's got our cop in it.
You can't suggest that we should only claim when people are moved, because then the scum can fabricate their movements, and we won't know, they can move without telling us, and we won't know. There's no guarantee we will if we claim, but we have to try. If we remain unclaimed, the scum have much more reliable information than we do. I don't see this as breaking the game. I see this as the reason that voting is public. If votes were cast secretly, there would be no question of whether or not they were to be claimed publicly. It is the standard operating procedure of every game to give the scum as little wiggle room as is humanly possible. Staying in the dark might save us someone tonight, but it won't save us someone when it counts. By the end of the game, the scum will have built up a cache of moved players, so that they know who they can and cannot kill, and we don't. Perhaps you might want to wait to mass-colour-claim, but I think that unless we do it today, the scum will plausibly be able to claim just about any floor they so choose, for whatever tactical reason.
Regardless, I don't appreciate the detractors (DDD and Llama) that are not proposing some alternate topic for discussion, but expecting the room to bestow one upon them. Hopefully this post will get the ball rolling on the colour-claim so that we can move on to the game at hand. Sorry for the wall of text, for those of you that do not like them, but I felt it was necessary to condense it in one post rather than stretch it along.
In regards to Nuwen's question: Since the claimed Bellhop would be moved at the beginning of the following day, the Bellhop would claim his movement and we would then lock that floor for the next night. We could follow the Bellhop from floor to floor, but this would eliminate any possibility of creating a 'safe floor'. On the upside, if the scum are preoccupied with moving the Bellhop, everyone else will be movable according to our intentions, such that we could move as many players as we can manage onto a single floor and then gradually whittle away possibilities for scum. Frankly, the mafia is, in the long term, forced to leave the Bellhop as is, or risk the eventual bleed-out. They are presented with the choice between the 'safe floor' and the endgame scenario in which we inevitably win. This is all dependent upon a full colour claim, of course.
TDC: Does this satisfactorily answer your question? I don't think there's anything left for me to elaborate on.
As for my lynch candidate, I feel that my vote has become more well-advised since I first cast it, and I'll be staying where I am for now.
That's about it.
(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough
Okay, so, assuming we go through with the bellhop-claim-and-lock plan, then it will be predictable which floor will be locked each day. The scum could then
1) move themselves around in order to be able to submit kills or prevent them getting vigged/investigated/whatever
2) move pro-town players out of the safe floor to kill them
both without anyone noticing.
Is that, in a nutshell, what you think is the risk of not colour-claiming?
If we did colour claim, 2 would of course still be possible and 1 would provide some information (and wifom).
Lord Gurgi wrote:As we plan to lock out a floor, they cackle because they know there's only one guy on that floor. As we plan to lock out a floor we think are filled with scummy people, they cackle because they know it's got our cop in it.
I don't really get this passage, how would they know how many people are in which floor? They'd only know about themselves and the people they moved. So if there's only one bellhop they'd need some nights to be any close to knowing who's where,
even more so if there's also a town bellhop who isn't on the safe floor..
Lord Gurgi wrote:On the upside, if the scum are preoccupied with moving the Bellhop, everyone else will be movable according to our intentions
I'm under the impression that the Bellhop can't do his business if he's on the safe floor. Is that wrong?
Because if that's the case and we safe floor the only town bellhop, we sure can't move people like we want..
TDC wrote:I'm under the impression that the Bellhop can't do his business if he's on the safe floor. Is that wrong?
No, the Bellhop PM says that it can use it's ability even if on a safe floor.
Eh, maybe I'm being thick, but I still don't see how the plan suggested covers us against the possibility of there only being a scum bellhop. If we get only one bellhop claim, we're going to treat that player as confirmed? Also, if we have two town bellhops, it seems like we'll end up lynching them both under this plan when they counterclaim each other.
DDD, what's scummy about Zazier?
Mod
: Please prod Zazier.
Primpod 11:13 pm
chamber can you please come to ukmeet
i would love to finally touch your face
Cliched third on a bad bandwagon and when asked for "supporting" evidence ZazieR was quick to run off and find it which seems to suggest he actually viewed the point as valid.
Patrick wrote:Eh, maybe I'm being thick, but I still don't see how the plan suggested covers us against the possibility of there only being a scum bellhop. If we get only one bellhop claim, we're going to treat that player as confirmed? Also, if we have two town bellhops, it seems like we'll end up lynching them both under this plan when they counterclaim each other.
Right, I brought this issue up in post 92, but LG had a good response in the following post.
The way to figure this out is to go with the plan I suggested in post 76. If there are two town bellhops, then we should see two players a night being transported to the safe room. If there is only 1 scum bellhop, then we might see nobody being transferred to the safe room.
By carrying through with that plan, we will get a picture of what we are looking at in terms of bellhops. If some people are getting transferred to the safe floor, and some are getting transferred off of it, then we can assume we're dealing with both scum and town bellhops. Then if we get Bellhops to claim, we'll either find ourselves in a counterclaim scenario, or just the town bellhop will claim and we'll have a confirmed townie.
-------------------
If we get everyone to color claim and then choose to lock the floor with the most pro-town players and start shuffling off more players to that floor we can force scum to play our game. If it doesn't work, then we've learned what we're dealing with in terms of scum abilities. As it stands now, things are essentially chaotic and random, and there is absolutely nothing stopping scum from lying about things after the fact to throw things off. Also we have no information to determine whether someone is a scum or town bellhop. If things are random and Johnny Q. Sample gets moved from the Red floor to the Green floor we have absolutely no way of knowing if it was done by a scum or town bellhop. By forcing the bellhops into using their abilities toward a pro-town end (locking scum out of kills entirely), we can corral a scum bellhop into having to either use his ability in a way that is anti-scum or give up on ever being able to claim it. And in the latter case, that opens the door for a town bellhop to claim his role and become a confirmed/unkillable townie.
-------
Zazie was posting in at least one game on Saturday, but hasn't posted in here since Thursday...
I wish the search wasn't down right now, but it looks as though he's avoiding this game.
Lord Gurgi wrote:Well since you're being so helpful on that matter, at least contribute in more conventional means. You and Llama both.
I absolutely hate playing follow the role, I hate trying to break setups, it just makes the game much less enjoyable to me. I would rather win the game through scumhunting with some role aid instead of roles with some scumhunting.
I think what I said is the best way to go about it, I would much rather just get down to scumhunting instead of sending half the day trying to break the game. If we are going to insist on setup speculation, I just like locking down a random floor. If we try and lock down the floor with someone who is most town looking, scum can just kill the second towniest. From there the bellhop can just move who he thinks is most town to his floor and we start locking that way.
So scumhunting, its a good thing. That should be something we do. Quite a few people have done litte/none in that department with almost a third of the day gone.
Why are you commenting on this in particular? I haven't explained my vote, for example.
I keep forgetting when the deadline is for. D'oh.
I'd have to read. I may have missed it
As for the bellhop discussion...I understand LG's logic, but I'm not sure how much control the scum have. Like, how would the scum know that we have the cop on a safe floor or something without claims?
I also agree with llamafluff that scumhunting is better. But overall, I now understand why people hate walls of text.
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
-StrangerCoug
TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
