/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[Goatrevolt]

I agree that Battosou is scummy. I disagree with your 2nd point, but you're absolutely correct about the quicklynch thing. I've never seen anyone quicklynched day 1 in any game of mafia I've ever played. Using that as a basis behind attacking someone is exceptionally weak. I also think his 3 FoS's while claiming they all "did the same thing" is sketchy, considering they didn't do the same thing, and he's made no effort to distinguish between them.

Don't know if he's scummier than Zazie, though. That'll depend on a few factors.

I haven't thought much about the setup. I'll look at it.

[Goatrevolt]

What advantages does the use of a bellhop have?

I can see some definite advantages.

The floor system makes it entirely possible to "protect" a slew of players, with the caveat that they can still be killed by another person on their floor. A death on a locked floor means that someone on that floor has killing abilities, barring the intervention of a bellhop.

I think your caveat is wrong. Check out Special Rule 4. Anyone on the floor is protected from actions and prevented from being able to use actions. People on the locked floor truly are protected from kills.

Does anyone else see a town use for the bellhop? The role seems like a game-convoluting nuisance. There's a faint possibility that the bellhop could secret the target of a NK off to a locked floor as pseudo-protection, but that also injects another player into the controlled atmosphere of sealed floors.

I think your faint possibility is actually not possible. The bellhop role says it makes the swap the next morning, so you can't actually whisk someone away to prevent a NK.

------------

Here is a way to use the bellhop to potentially break the game. We pick a floor. Every single night the bellhop moves a player to that floor. Every day we lock that floor. Eventually we will have half+ the game on that floor, and they will be immune to kills. We will lock the scum out of kills (by moving them onto the floor thus roleblocking them) or at the very worst, we can narrow down who is making kills and likewise limit who the scum can actually kill. Let's say there are only 3 players left not on that floor. The scum would be forced to kill one of those 3, which could be suboptimal, and then we would know one of the remaining two were scum. By doing this, I think we limit scum options significantly.

This would require us to all color claim, though. And that might not be a bad idea, at any rate. Rather than have which floor we lock down be random, I say we make an educated choice based on full knowledge of what floor everyone is on.

Let's say there are 3 really pro-town seeming players on the same floor. We might want to lock that one down to keep them all alive. Or maybe there are a bunch of scummy players on the same floor. We can lock that floor down to limit scum options by roleblocking them.

------

To sum. I think we should color claim. I think we should pick a designated "floor to lock" based on what things look like post-color claim. Every night the bellhop should move players into that floor (either scummy players to prevent them from using abilities, or pro-town players to keep them from being NKed). Eventually we lock the scum out of kills entirely, or force them into making really sub-optimal kills.

One con to this plan is that we also potentially screw pro-town power roles out of using their ability. However, I think removing the scum NK or preventing them from using it effectively is worth the possible downside.

[Patrick]

The floor system makes it entirely possible to "protect" a slew of players, with the caveat that they can still be killed by another person on their floor. A death on a locked floor means that someone on that floor has killing abilities, barring the intervention of a bellhop.

I interpretted the rules as saying that anyone on a locked floor can't take an action at all, even against someone on their floor.

Mod, when you get back, can you clarify this?

Still not finding Batt scummy, but want to see him respond.

[Goatrevolt]

Why do you think Nuwen is scummy?

[Patrick]

Got a bad vibe from 66 because he seems like one of the least opportunistic and lazy players so far in the game. She made alot out of what seemed to me like a pretty harmless, "I want to hear more from them before choosing a vote" type comment; I've done that plenty of times myself.

Will think on the floor claiming plan.

[forbiddanlight]

LG and Llamafluff- I'm waiting on more play before I place my vote down again. Right now everyone I fos'd has done the same thing, so I'm going to wait for them to become more active.

I'm...going to play devil's advocate and ask if you have a demonstrable meta of this?

How? That's not the feeling I got from his posts at all. He seems to be one of the more involved players so far, so I wouldn't say lazy, and I don't think there's anything wrong with waiting for more before voting.

I'm kinda wondering why this explanation came AFTER the vote rather than with it?

To sum. I think we should color claim. I think we should pick a designated "floor to lock" based on what things look like post-color claim. Every night the bellhop should move players into that floor (either scummy players to prevent them from using abilities, or pro-town players to keep them from being NKed). Eventually we lock the scum out of kills entirely, or force them into making really sub-optimal kills.

Hmm...I think I understand your logic and lean towards agreement with it.

One problem though.

Bellhops can be any alignment. This would be problematic for our plans, ne?


I dislike the fact that Patrick's exposition only came AFTER his two word vote post, but for now his voting reason, while I disagree with it, is solid enough for this stage of the game...

[TDC]

I don't think we should color claim. It tells scum whom they can't kill when we lock a floor.

I think that if we conclude that player X is probably town, we should ask that player which color he is and lock that floor (and town bellhops could then attempt to move people into that floor).
Until then we should just randomly lock floors and look what happens.

[Patrick]

I dislike the fact that Patrick's exposition only came AFTER his two word vote post, but for now his voting reason, while I disagree with it, is solid enough for this stage of the game...

I do it from time to time, just to see what happens. Now you mention it, I remember debating this with you in BSG. Do you still think originally unexplained votes are more likely to be made by scum?

The possibility of the bellhop being scum makes this plan risky, I think. Claiming floors without going for the bellhop part is possible, but does have the downside of allowing scum a guaranteed nightkill, whereas if people's floors stay hidden there's a chance of the nightkill failing. Of course, the same is true of town poweroles picking their targets. My hunch about PJ is that he wouldn't make a game that can be broken on day 1, but I'm open to arguments if there's some other advantage to claiming now.

[Mr. Flay]

Official Day One Vote Count #4

4 - Debonair Danny DiPietro (SpyreX, LlamaFluff, ZazieR, Lord Gurgi)
2 - Battousai (Nuwen, Elmo)
2 - ZazieR (Goatrevolt, Debonair Danny DiPietro)
1 - SpyreX (TDC)
1 - LlamaFluff (forbiddanlight)
1 - Nuwen (Patrick)

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is September 1, 10:00 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 1 – Battousai

~

0 - Blue
0 - Green
0 - Red
0 - Yellow

Not Locking – 12 – Battousai, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Elmo, forbiddanlight, Goatrevolt, LlamaFluff, Lord Gurgi, Nuwen, Patrick, SpyreX, TDC, ZazieR

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lock. Back-Up Floor is:

Red

.

~
I will ask Mr. Wilson about the question posed to him.

[forbiddanlight]

I do it from time to time, just to see what happens. Now you mention it, I remember debating this with you in BSG. Do you still think originally unexplained votes are more likely to be made by scum?

If they think they can get away with it. It buys time to come up with a good explanation if it's let past. Also can give time for someone to screw up and supply you with a good explanation.

The possibility of the bellhop being scum makes this plan risky, I think. Claiming floors without going for the bellhop part is possible, but does have the downside of allowing scum a guaranteed nightkill, whereas if people's floors stay hidden there's a chance of the nightkill failing. Of course, the same is true of town poweroles picking their targets. My hunch about PJ is that he wouldn't make a game that can be broken on day 1, but I'm open to arguments if there's some other advantage to claiming now.

I don't see any protown benefit. I'm giving Goat the benefit of the doubt though because I'm not sure if he caught the alignment thing.

[Nuwen]

I'm waiting for an answer on the setup question before passing any judgment on Goat's plan or modifying my own. No one color claim in the meantime.

I dislike the fact that Patrick's exposition only came AFTER his two word vote post, but for now his voting reason, while I disagree with it, is solid enough for this stage of the game...

I find his behavior to be slightly townish; there are more optimal (read: easy) locations for a scum vote right now, and his initial lack of explanation is a common pressure technique that's independent of alignment.

If the reasoning behind a vote exists at the time it was made (and not provoked afterward), what's the difference between explaining a vote at the time it's placed and a few posts later? Do you think a scum player is more likely to exert pressure as Patrick did; if so, why?

[Lord Gurgi]

Mod

: What happens to a room with nobody in it?[/b]

I think that since the Bellhoppery fails if two people try to do it, if the scum mess with the plan, then they'll have confirmed our Bellhop, or they'll be forced to claim and try to get him/her lynched. I like having confirmed unkillable people that can make others unkillable. I also like killing scum early. As I see it, we can either control who the scum can kill, or they can try to get us to lynch our bellhop, which still means they lose a guy. This looks like a win-win to me.

[Battousai]

LG and Llamafluff- I'm waiting on more play before I place my vote down again. Right now everyone I fos'd has done the same thing, so I'm going to wait for them to become more active.

They didn't do the same thing. Llama started the wagon. Zazie hopped aboard without comment. And LG jumped on with a "screw the RVS, let's just blatantly bandwagon" vote. Does reasoning, timing, the nature of the vote not factor in to your opinions at all?

I was talking about how they all jumped on a wagon of a player that hadn't entered the game. I guess I didn't think about how they voted. Hmm... now that I think about that, it does seem that LG is a bit scummier than the others (I don't like bandwagonning just to get out of RVS). LlamaFluff and Zazie are the same just about. She quoted LlamaFluff and that is her reason for voting DDD.

Vote: LG

are all of your suspicions honestly based on the expectation that DDD's wagon would be pushed to a kill?

I feel that if you place a vote on someone, barring rvs in most cases, that you want the person lynched.

Unvote
FOS: LlamaFluff

Why does verification of DDD's "active lurking" (which I doubt was deliberate, but that's irrelevant to this point) lessen the intensity of your suspicion towards LlamaFluff? Do you believe scum always get town lynched for false reasons?

It adds reasonable doubt in to whether or not he felt that DDD was active lurking or not. After going back to the votes, it doesn't even look like LG even cared why he voted DDD, as long as it was a bandwagon vote and it is why I decided to vote him.

Of course scum can get town lynched for acting scummy. Else, how would they get a townie to hop on the wagon? Based on DDD's actions, or lack of actions, I don't feel like he did anything scummy except the possible action of active lurking (even though I also don't feel he did this).

[Goatrevolt]

Bellhops can be any alignment. This would be problematic for our plans, ne?

Hmm...yeah. A scum bellhop would wreck the plan. We could use the plan to determine whether or not we have a scum bellhop, but at that point it's probably not really worth it.

I dislike the fact that Patrick's exposition only came AFTER his two word vote post, but for now his voting reason, while I disagree with it, is solid enough for this stage of the game...

I'm curious why you have a problem with this, yet you don't have a problem with my vote on Zazie?

If they think they can get away with it. It buys time to come up with a good explanation if it's let past. Also can give time for someone to screw up and supply you with a good explanation.

Eh, this doesn't really work. If your explanation is something that hadn't occurred yet when you voted then you can't use it.

----

Hmm...I think I understand your logic and lean towards agreement with it.

I don't see any protown benefit. I'm giving Goat the benefit of the doubt though because I'm not sure if he caught the alignment thing.

What changed?

----

The search is down, but I saw Zazie posting in other games last night yet ignoring this one. Tsk tsk.

[Lord Gurgi]

Goat is my post invisible?

[Goatrevolt]

Are you talking about post 86? I'm not sure what you are trying to suggest with it. Looking at the Bellhlp PM, two bellhops would only cancel each other out if they try to target the same player.

And actually, now that I think about it, the fact that the mod expressly noted that in the PM is a pretty strong hint that there is a bellhop for each alignment (or more than 1 bellhop in the game).

[Lord Gurgi]

Oh, wait I misread it. I thought if two people use a movement ability, it fails. Point is, that the scum can't really thwart us without confirming our Bellhop.

[Goatrevolt]

How will we know which bellhop is which? If we want to confirm a bellhop, we can just have them claim today. Either the scum bellhop counterclaims, and we have a 1-1 or nobody counterclaims, and we've found our confirmed town bellhop.

There are some definite issues with the above, though, because it assumes the setup is 1 town bellhop and 1 scum bellhop. And although that seems to make the most sense based on the wording of the bellhop PM, it would be a bad idea to act off of pure conjecture. If there are 2 town bellhops, for example, we would out them both and then lynch them both. That would be total failure.

I think my plan is no longer viable with the idea of a scum bellhop. I will keep thinking about it, though. I guarantee there is a way to use the setup to our advantage.

[Lord Gurgi]

Why do we have to force anything? If we just colourclaim and start moving people, that'll work. If it fails, the Bellhop claims. No counterclaim, we have a confirmed unkillable, counterclaim, we have 50/50 of confirmed unkillable or 1-1.

[LlamaFluff]

I was talking about how they all jumped on a wagon of a player that hadn't entered the game. I guess I didn't think about how they voted. Hmm... now that I think about that, it does seem that LG is a bit scummier than the others

(I don't like bandwagonning just to get out of RVS).

LlamaFluff and Zazie are the same just about. She quoted LlamaFluff and that is her reason for voting DDD.

Why?

It adds reasonable doubt in to whether or not he felt that DDD was active lurking or not. After going back to the votes, it doesn't even look like LG even cared why he voted DDD, as long as it was a bandwagon vote and it is why I decided to vote him.

Am I reading this as you actually thinking I wanted DDD lynched for lurking when the game had been on for about 48 hours?

~~~~

Im not into outguessing the mod here on how many bellhops are in the game. I actually more like the idea of just locking down the floor with player who looks most town, and slowly shuffling over any confirmed players to that floor. If a town looking player gets moved off the "safe" floor, then bellhop(s) claim, and we should be able to keep the town one safe from there on out.

unvote
Vote TDC

You are commenting on the setup, but you are ignoring the early wagon or for that matter, any other scumhunting attempts.

[Goatrevolt]

Why do we have to force anything? If we just colourclaim and start moving people, that'll work. If it fails, the Bellhop claims. No counterclaim, we have a confirmed unkillable, counterclaim, we have 50/50 of confirmed unkillable or 1-1.

This is a good point. I'm back to thinking we should do this. Even if there is a scum bellhop, we still are able to learn exactly what we're going against and then possibly confirm a town bellhop/protect them indefinitely. Having a confirmed/unkillable player is gamebreaking.

[Goatrevolt]

So if things work out, nobody will have to claim and we'll thwart the scum killing potential. If things don't work out, then the bellhop(s) can claim and we can either find ourselves in a counterclaim situation or end up with a confirmed bellhop.

And even if the confirmed bellhop gets moved around by a scum bellhop, we can always just lock whichever floor they end up on each day. So they will always be protected.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok, here is my opinion on trying to break the game: it wont work.

The best thing we can do is most likely going to be just to wait untill we are ready to lynch, have the person we are going to lynch color claim then just do a 1d3 on the other colors to see what floor to lock up (this assumes that we are distributed equally). It will RB/protect four players, scum will not know who is NK immune, it basically makes more of the setup hidden to scum, protecting up to four random players. I would rather make four unknown players immune, then make one known immune.

[Lord Gurgi]

Llama, protecting a confirmed innocent is definitely superior to four unknowns.

[Goatrevolt]

Ok, here is my opinion on trying to break the game: it wont work.

I think it's definitely possible. Maybe not "break" the game persay, but I think the game can be tilted in our favor based on good use of the setup.

The best thing we can do is most likely going to be just to wait untill we are ready to lynch, have the person we are going to lynch color claim then just do a 1d3 on the other colors to see what floor to lock up (this assumes that we are distributed equally). It will RB/protect four players, scum will not know who is NK immune, it basically makes more of the setup hidden to scum, protecting up to four random players. I would rather make four unknown players immune, then make one known immune.

I agree that this probably is a stronger move for today if we're thinking only about what we can gain tonight and not thinking about the game as a whole. I think the other plan is better in the long run. We give up the possible random kill stop factor today in favor of making it tougher for the scum to kill in successive nights.

If we leave things random each day, then the amount of information and value of information we learn will also be random.

Also, if we are going to lynch scum, they can simply lie about where they are located and it will throw us off.