Mini 837 - Stratego Mafia! (Game Over!)

[WeyounsLastClone]

ortolan, what don't you like about ElectricBadger's post? I think he has the same suspicions about Gorrad as I do.

And outright claiming spy might be bad, but hinting at spy can be a fruitful tactic (as it is in the game to scare the marshal of the opponent).

Anyway, Gorrad should unvote himself as soon as possible.

[Kast]

@Gorrad-
-I agree that your comments on the roles and why you would not want to claim being any of them makes sense. At the same time, I don't think you addressed why you would want to claim not being them. The comments for the Flag and Spy both indicate that you realize scum might be inclined to target those two roles. Why would you then narrow the field to allow scum to better find those high priority roles?

-I'm reading a stronger affirmation of the implication that Sajin raised earlier. You seem to be softclaiming knowledge that roles other than your own (specifically a spy role but implication that this applies to every role) has the ability to kill weaker players. Please confirm or deny whether you are trying to softclaim this.

@ElectricBadger-
-Yeah, actually people here like to misuse the term breadcrumb and apply it to unsubtle direct claims (particularly claims of what roles they don't have) that happen early in game. Direct claims like what Gorrad did are not breadcrumbs nor do they function as breadcrumbs.

-Why do you say Gorrad has claimed a power role? Fishing or just assuming much?

-You are taking something that is not indicative of alignment, looking at a skewed but possible situation in which it harms the town, and assuming that this single situation is enough to conclude that Gorrad is probable scum. I strongly dislike this kind of argument.

---Lots of irrational behavior this game---

@Mafia composition-
It's going to be arbitrary. Stratego is a team game between a Red and Blue team (different team names in the variants). Both teams share the same piece types. Some pieces have special abilities. Some pieces are movement limited.

If we were playing a Chess themed mafia, I don't think anyone would have a problem believing it was the Black team vs the White team OR that it was some subset of playing pieces vs a larger set.

@Setup discussion-
There are 12 unique pieces and 12 players in this game. There is a potential that each player has a unique role name. I didn't notice this before, but it seems like some people are assuming this already and others (like myself) have not been making the same assumption.

I don't see anything in my role that makes me assume this should be the case, and I'm inclined to believe that townies would not automatically assume this. I am inclined to believe that people who assumed (or posted as if assuming) this was true could have more information about the game setup that suggests this is the case (such as scum buddies with different role names and/or information about specific townie roles).

[ortolan]

Anyway, Gorrad should unvote himself as soon as possible.

Wait...why are you asking him to unvote himself if according to your own vote, his is well-placed? This makes no sense. Do you genuinely think Gorrad is scum, or not?

Kast: Why are you persisting in setup discussion? What pro-town outcome do you foresee it having? Why are you making vague statements like the following wherein you don't even attack anyone specifically?

I am inclined to believe that people who assumed (or posted as if assuming) this was true could have more information about the game setup that suggests this is the case (such as scum buddies with different role names and/or information about specific townie roles).

---

ElectricBadger's last post had heaps of scummy content.

I still really don't understand this. The purpose of breadcrumbing is to leave subtle hints of evidence without drawing NK attention and making yourself a target. By announcing such, you've performed the exact opposite: you highlighted yourself as a power role and failed to deliver any worthwhile information.

There is no evidence he highlighted himself as a power-role.

This

looks like

a big scum move to me: quasi-claiming a power role to mislead a doctor or appear to have some authority or knowledge to influence a lynch (possibly a setup for a future fake claim?). Too much deliberate obfuscation here to be a townie doing an investigation - such a nonsensical clue is unlikely to be understood post mortem either.

Don't like the tentative language of "looks like". Also again, there is no evidence he claimed a power role. Also the case "he might be fake-breadcrumbing in order to 'influence a lynch'" is purely speculative and merit-less, especially when, again, there is no evidence he's breadcrumbed a power role.

What's the relevance of his breadcrumb being understood post-mortem here anyway? Even if he was breadcrumbing a power-role, which there's no evidence of, we know there was no night 0, therefore there are no meaningful results he could be breadcrumbing at this stage in the game. If he's merely breadcrumbing the nature of his role, then it's irrelevant whether the breadcrumb is understood "post-mortem", because we'll get his role name when he dies anyway. So basically, you shrouded all these possibilities in vague language, but they don't actually make sense when examined.

I'm reading this as bombs=mafia, and Gorrad is one: this sort of claim is sure to draw a cop investigation or doctor protection and get our power roles killed off.

There is absolutely no basis for the inference that bombs=mafia. There is also absolutely no evidence that Gorrad is a bomb, or is claiming a bomb (in fact there is evidence to the contrary), even if it were true that "bombs=mafia". This part of the case is truly horrible.

Gorrad's 'breadcrumb' has no benefit at all for town, and a lot of potential gain for mafia. Thus, Gorrad=scum.

You mean potential gain according to the horribly improbably scenarios you just cooked up.

Although I really dislike the movements towards role claiming I can see misguided townies trying it, and

this feels like solid evidence

, so-

Again I hate the tentative language. Also there is no solid evidence against Gorrad, only figments of your imagination.

I see it as more likely EB is scum making such illogical reaches of this nature rather than town making such illogical reaches of this nature.

[charter]

Vote Count

Hoopla - 1 (dramonic)

Gorrad - 4 (Gorrad, Sajin, WeyounsLastClone, ElectricBadger)

ElectricBadger - 1 (ortolan)
dramonic - 2 (Vaya, Hoopla)
AlmasterGM - 1 (Kast

Not Voting

Debonair Danny DiPietro
AlmasterGM
Synx


With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!


Deadline is September 12, midnight.

[Hoopla]

With 12 alive, it takes 8 to lynch!

Error?

[WeyounsLastClone]

Anyway, Gorrad should unvote himself as soon as possible.

Wait...why are you asking him to unvote himself if according to your own vote, his is well-placed? This makes no sense. Do you genuinely think Gorrad is scum, or not?

Someone voting for him- or herself is always bad in my opinion. So as long as Gorrad's voting for himself, he is anti-town to me.

[dramonic]

I strongly agree with Ortolan about EB's last post.

Vote: ElectricBadger

Bad cases full of speculation are scummy.

[ElectricBadger]

If Gorrad weren't a power role, why breadcrumb? Would a vanilla townie do so? Perhaps you define it differently, but to me breadcrumbs/hints/quasi-role-claim = some sort of power role. So yes, as I understand it he did identify himself as a power role, unlikely to change unless you can tell me what crumbs a vanilla has to leave. He also managed that claim in a way that couldn't be counter-claimed. This reeks of scum to me.

My language? Literally arguing semantics? *Shrugs* Not worth responding to.

The entire and sole purpose of a crumb, in my understanding, is to leave clues of one's knowledge post-mortem. Having one that's clear helps that; "sept. 12th" is too ambiguous to be anything but a fake hint. If, as mentioned above, it's a role claim instead than it's just as bad.

Yes, they are scenarios, and no, no evidence: but if you read my post thoroughly, you'll note that I take that into account, a sort of risk v. gain analysis: I see no scenarios where Gorrad's breadcrumb helps town, and some where it doesn't. If nothing else, it provides confusion and leads (deliberately or not) to misinformation. Thus, for town, it's a bad move, so either that's the case or it's a good move and he's not town; and it seems too deliberate and thought out to me to be a mistake.

I'm curious to hear your own interpretation of how his crumb helps town; your defense of him on all counts is a bit suspicious to me, orto.

[ortolan]

Why would vanillas not breadcrumb if they had a unique role/role title in the game?

[Kast]

@Ort-
There are multiple players who have posted with the assumption that each player is a different one of the 12 pieces. Some of it may have been players who have private knowledge (probable scum) and some may be players who took the hints and ran with it. None of that is nearly as suspicious to me as the player I am voting for or the other players I have specified by name for posts I disliked.

@ElectricBadger-
You don't know what arguing semantics means. That is an invalid defense against Ort's post. Answer the points instead of hiding please.

The primary purpose of a breadcrumb is to leave behind information that others will not see. You admitted knowledge of this earlier and now are contradicting yourself by claiming otherwise.

Good breadcrumbs are most successfully used to show commitment to a particular roleclaim which aids the player in future if they come under suspicion and are forced to claim. They usually are not valuable post-mortem due to player roles usually revealed on death and players usually not able to include decoding mechanisms in their death reveals.

If anything, Gorrad's post asking about player numbers could weakly be considered a breadcrumb that his role is a numbered playing piece. He later confirmed that this was his intent. There's really nothing else bread-crumb like about it. While claiming non-spy/non-bomb/non-flag might have some minor benefit for scum targeting, it is nowhere near as dangerous as you are acting.

You are also being inconsistent in claiming that Gorrad's role will draw pro-town actions but not anti-town actions.

You are seriously pushing a crap-logic case over something that is quite neutral.

[charter]

With 12 alive, it takes 8 to lynch!

Error?

Yeah, I mean 7 lynch.

[ElectricBadger]

@ElectricBadger-
You don't know what arguing semantics means.

Narf. I do appreciate the humor there.

That is an invalid defense against Ort's post. Answer the points instead of hiding please.

What points? My language was "tentative"? Okay. Yes, it is? Not sure what answer you expect to that. If you feel saying "looks like" makes me scum, there's really nothing I'm going to say to sway you.

Feel free to examine my meta though: a townie post.

The primary purpose of a breadcrumb is to leave behind information that others will not see. You admitted knowledge of this earlier and now are contradicting yourself by claiming otherwise.

I think, as mentioned above, I have a different understanding of a 'breadcrumb' than some of you. Yes, information others will not see until after a player is killed and the evidence is given meaning by their flip. For instance, a cop saying "

I think

so and so is scum" on every suspect except those actually investigated.

Good breadcrumbs are most successfully used to show commitment to a particular roleclaim which aids the player in future if they come under suspicion and are forced to claim. They usually are not valuable post-mortem due to player roles usually revealed on death and players usually not able to include decoding mechanisms in their death reveals.

I wouldn't normally call that a breadcrumb, but if that's what he's doing, then fair enough. I still don't think it's particularly helpful to narrow down which of us are what, but no matter.

You are also being inconsistent in claiming that Gorrad's role will draw pro-town actions but not anti-town actions.

I believe I've been consistent saying the opposite of this; perhaps quote what you're talking about so I can explain?

[Gorrad]

As WLC wishes,

Unvote

.

Electricbadger, I've breadcrumbed as a variety of roles before. You would be correct if this was not a mini-theme. In a normal game, one would only breadcrumb as a PR, as all the vanillas have the same flavor. However, in theme games vanillas usually have a variety of different flavors. Therefore, breadcrumbing flavor is not a PR-only thing to do.

Kast, consider. If I had any of those roles, they would be stupid to claim. Therefore, had I one of those roles, I would likely fakeclaim. Therefore this entire deal, starting with the question to the mod, could easily be an elaborate ruse to make people believe I was a numbered role.

Also, I have done naught but speculate so far. My role has given me no information on how pieces kill other pieces.

[ElectricBadger]

Electricbadger, I've breadcrumbed as a variety of roles before. You would be correct if this was not a mini-theme. In a normal game, one would only breadcrumb as a PR, as all the vanillas have the same flavor. However, in theme games vanillas usually have a variety of different flavors. Therefore, breadcrumbing flavor is not a PR-only thing to do.

Need to reconsider a bit. A lot going on in the last couple pages.

But the differing definition of breadcrumb seems to have townie support (unlikely you're all scum), so I'll accept it; and in that case, no, not as obvious a tell as I was thinking.

Unvote

for now.

[ortolan]

Anyway, Gorrad should unvote himself as soon as possible.

Wait...why are you asking him to unvote himself if according to your own vote, his is well-placed? This makes no sense. Do you genuinely think Gorrad is scum, or not?

Someone voting for him- or herself is always bad in my opinion. So as long as Gorrad's voting for himself, he is anti-town to me.

It's more the point that you are voting him, which implies he is the scummiest player to you. If that is the case then I don't see why you'd want him to unvote himself. I wouldn't have a problem with scum assisting in lynching themselves.

Feel free to examine my meta though: a townie post.

What about your meta should we glean from this post?

[AlmasterGM]

I suppose I'll stop speculating on roles since everyone else seems to think it's a bad idea. However, I will respond to this post since Kast is using it as a reason to vote for me.

I agree that if there is a single "Flag" player who mafia is searching for, then there would need to be mechanics in place to protect that player. However, I strongly disagree that this would be impossible or extremely difficult for a moderator to come up with mechanics to do that. I think your claim otherwise is bogus.

This is completely unjustified by anything you posted. I strongly dislike this assumption. If there is a flag in this game, then your post strongly suggests to me that you are anti-town searching for it.

Consider the inverse of your claim logically - if the flag is a pro-town piece which (from flavor) means "game over," this means if the flag dies the town loses. There would have to be a substantial amount of additional rules to prevent this game from being too luck based. The flag would have to be immune to an early lynch of NK. There would then need to be specific paramaters on when the flag COULD be killed. It is just so much easier of the flag is just like the "mafia leader" - an anti-town piece to be captured. That being said, even if you feel my claim is disputable, I fail to see how it's "totally unjustified."

I breadcrumbed because I enjoy the mental stimulation of doing so, and I pointed it out because I saw no reason not to. The odds of finding what it means are ridiculously small.

I find this argument very uncompelling and agree with the other people who also have problems with it.

Kast: Why are you persisting in setup discussion? What pro-town outcome do you foresee it having? Why are you making vague statements like the following wherein you don't even attack anyone specifically?

This is one thing I do find interesting. Everyone else who thinks speculation is bad simply doesn't speculate. Kast, on the other hand, makes a huge deal out of rebutting my claims and arguing why his speculation is correct ... while at the same time saying we shouldn't speculate. Hmm hmmm hmmm.

[Kast]

@ElectricBadger-
You state that you think Gorrad's "breadcrumb" will draw power townies to target him (doc and cop). If this were true, his breadcrumb should ALSO draw scum to target him. You are inconsistent in ignoring this aspect.

@AlmasterGM-
-Your post does nothing to justify your claim that a flag would be something the town is trying to hunt for. Your comment is a complete non-sequitor.

-We continue to disagree that a moderator cannot or would not be able to balance a game that included a flag piece. I can see many mechanics which would protect a town flag, many of which fit extremely well flavor-wise. This type of speculation is something I will avoid sharing as it could easily help scum if we are in such a situation.

There is no logical problem with the moderator designing a specialized role into a theme game.

-You are inconsistent in claiming that a town flag piece must equal town loss if flag dies, but simultaneously proposing that mafia could have a flag which would not equal mafia loss if flag dies.

-I have never unilaterally condemned setup speculation. I was extremely clear about my position on setup speculation in my third post. It can be useful in some games, but it should never be used at the expense of regular scumhunting.

-There is a big difference between you insisting that your irrational claims are probable, and me pointing out various possibilities and thoughts on what each of those possibilities would mean if true.

[ElectricBadger]

@ElectricBadger-
You state that you think Gorrad's "breadcrumb" will draw power townies to target him (doc and cop). If this were true, his breadcrumb should ALSO draw scum to target him. You are inconsistent in ignoring this aspect.

Not sure what you're talking about here, or why I'm inconsistent. Yes,

if

Gorrad were a town power role, and

if he were

leaving a crumb that claims such a role, then he'd be a prime NK target: ergo, it'd be a bad move and a townie wouldn't do it. So no inconsistency there. If he were a scum-bomb drawing attention, or just mafia preparing a fake claim, I'm uncertain how scumbuddies would accidentally stumble into the trap. Could you clarify what you're talking about? It feels like you're just trying to sling mud and see what sticks.

@ElectricBadger-
-Yeah, actually people here like to misuse the term breadcrumb and apply it to unsubtle direct claims (particularly claims of what roles they don't have) that happen early in game. Direct claims like what Gorrad did are not breadcrumbs nor do they function as breadcrumbs.

I can understand the suspicions of others here, but you clearly understand my different definition of a breadcrumb from the start of your very first response. However, you keep leaping into the fray against a target of opportunity with a series of comments that ignore your own knowledge and claim my comments as scum-tell. Spreading accusations where you know none are due warrants my

Vote: Kast.

[ortolan]

Badger would you mind explaining to us the relevance of that post you linked to in a town game of yours in 86. I don't see it.

[Hoopla]

I am disliking Hoopla's posts just a bit less than I dislike AlmasterGM's posts. Hoopla seems to be looking to jump on an easy lynch target rather than looking for scum.

Why do you think he is an easy lynch target? I don't see anything that would suggest dramonic is a rubbish player, or incapable of defending himself. If you think he is an easy lynch target, surely he is doing something wrong, or has an anti-town meta?

I've played in a game were someone got hammered before 48 hours had passed since the beginning. I'm not big on early wagons. Odds are I won't be voting before a few pages in (and 3 is not enough)

These games are so few and far between, and on the odd occasion someone is quicklynched, it usually gives the town more information than a normal day of back and forth semantic garbage.

[Synx]

Now, really guys, can we stop the setup discussion? Judging by the different ideas floating around, nobody really knows, and speculating is entirely anti-town

Ortolan, your case on ElectricBadger is good, good work kid; fence-sitting, ridiculous setup discussion and tentative language all in one post. Followed by what I feel is a pointless vote on Kast, yea this dude is scummy. Sooo...

vote: ElectricBadger

I breadcrumbed because I enjoy the mental stimulation of doing so, and I pointed it out because I saw no reason not to. The odds of finding what it means are ridiculously small.

This post is pretty ridiculous, breadcrumb for a pro-town reason, not for "mental stimulation"

This is one thing I do find interesting. Everyone else who thinks speculation is bad simply doesn't speculate. Kast, on the other hand, makes a huge deal out of rebutting my claims and arguing why his speculation is correct ... while at the same time saying we shouldn't speculate.

It looks to me like Kast just cannot stop from spilling all of his thoughts out everytime he posts, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it can lead to some hypocrisy.

[ElectricBadger]

Badger would you mind explaining to us the relevance of that post you linked to in a town game of yours in 86. I don't see it.

Just noting that tentative language - "I think" and such - is my norm. If you don't see anything there that backs that up, ignore it. Personally I think the claim that saying "looks like" is a scum tell is ridiculous anyways, which is why I keep trying to let the silly thread die.

[WeyounsLastClone]

I always feel scum can often post with much more certainty than townies and that townies in general tend to use more 'tentative'. Finding peole scummy because they use 'I think' is scummy of its own in my opinion.

And I'm not sure if we should entirely stop discussing the set-up. Sure, it shouldn't be the only thing we do, but talking about it might get scum to slip up, or create some arguments which improve scumhunting as we can see how everyone reacts. At the start of the game, I think it's actually a good way to get things started.

[Sajin]

It has been 72 hours. All of you are scummy that were probing others for setup speculation while scum could daytalk. There are likely more people on that list that discussed possible setup then scum likely present in the game so the list likely has both foolish town and information gathering scum on it. But I am confident at least some scum resides on said list.

First off- I am used to the electronic version of stratego. The one where neither side reveals, the board tells who wins. The bombs not hindering movement as they are planted on squares underneath units that only trigger when the opposing miners are not the ones to hit it. I have played the other one but the electronic one was superior in so many ways. This being said, I am not assuming things in the game because of the board game. This can only help the scum more than it helps town. ESPECIALLY on day 1 (after some things are claimed/flipped it can be more beneficial to town).




2nd- Gorrad, I know you have addressed the point since, but you assumed pieces could face off. Now granted stratego has a lot of facing off....but would you assume random battles in a Final Fantasy mini theme mafia game? Or heart collecting in a zelda mini theme mafia game? I would not as it may not be present in the game. You did. I think this indicates inside knowledge or at least a differing PM.

Furthermore, you questioned the mod about this. So not only did you assume something was in the game that others may not assume was there, you asked for clarification of it. Therefore I find that this is likely indicative of something that was in your PM.

I am concluding that your PM is at least somewhat different than my own and therefore more than likely scum.

I have since added setup speculation and "I claim I am not one of the following" (since when has I am not this and I am not that EVER been a pro town move to do?) to the list of why I think your scum.

[Hoopla]

I always feel scum can often post with much more certainty than townies and that townies in general tend to use more 'tentative'. Finding peole scummy because they use 'I think' is scummy of its own in my opinion.

Although I catch myself using tentative language as town, I still disagree. Scum

know

that whoever they're attacking is town, and

know

they're lying. Using tentative language allows for suspicion on a player but also a get-out clause if need be. Most scum players will generally try and leave options open for bussing, or chasing other townies.

Leaving FoS's is another tactic that furthers suspicion without furthering a wagon, but still leaves a placeholder of suspicion to jump back to if needing an excuse to jump on a wagon.