Bastard Set-up?

[SensFan]

Personally, my definition of a bastard mod, or a bastard set-up is one in which the Mod lies to the players. I make it a rule in all games I mod that I will never lie to the players, so I never thought I'd be 'accused' of bastard-modding, but after I revealed the set-up of my recently-completed Mini Theme, more than one player thought the set-up was bastard. Was this unfair to the players? Should people stop assuming things about roles and set-ups?

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SHADOW KNIGHT

You are the Wood Elves, one of the more athletic and nimble Elf subraces. The Elves are being taken for granted by the rest of the world, since they have very long lifespans, and you’ve had enough of it. Together with the Drow (XOFELF), you have formed the

Elven Mafia

, and are hoping to take control of the continent, so that the Elves may once again be able to enjoy their long lives, without being pestered by everyone else. One of you may attempt to kill someone else every Night. As the physical breed of Elves, you are able to follow people at Night, without them seeing you. To that effect, you are able to see who one person targets every Night. You cannot, unfortunately, move so quickly as to both follow and kill in the same Night. You may also consult with the Drow every Night, through your secret communication method, located here. You win when the Elven Mafia controls the land, or nothing can prevent the same.
You are an

Elven Mafia Tracker.

.

XOFELF

You are the Drow, the sinister and dark breed of Elves. The entire Elven race has been putting up with abuse from the rest of the land for far too long, and so you have banded with the Wood Elves (SHADOW KNIGHT) to form the

Elven Mafia

, and are looking to eradicate the rest of the land, and one of you can kill someone every Night. You are by far the most intelligent Elves, and to this effect, if you do not spend time killing anyone at Night, you may cast a spell at someone of your choice, including yourself. The short timespan you will have to cast it, though, leaves it unpredictable in nature – it will do one of the following, but you won’t know which: remove their ability to vote, give their vote twice the weight, give them a post restriction, give them a temporary ability, kill them, or do nothing. You do know that each effect won’t happen a second time, once it happens. You may also consult with the Wood Elves every Night, through your secret communication method, located here. You win when the Elven Mafia controls the land, or nothing can prevent the same.
You are an

Elven Mafia Spellcaster.

.

Modnote: Roll randomly between all choices that have not been randomly chosen on previous Nights.

ORTOLAN

You are the Gold Dragons, the fantastic and powerful breed. You can’t stand the immense racism towards your kind, as judgement based on the colour of your skin is a hundred times more common than in any other discrimination case. You have a dream...a dream that this will all end, and you are prepared to do what it takes to end it. You’ve combined with the Red Dragons (MIXOLOGIST) to form the

Draconic Mafia

, to take back control of the land, and one of you may submit a kill each Night, in addition to being able to talk with your partner here. You do see that the Red Dragons are unstable and, frankly, sometime evil, and so if, at Night, you submit the kill for your faction, you may choose to eliminate the Red Dragons. If you kill them, you will be looking out for the land’s best interests, and trying to eliminate any other threat(s). You will still keep being able to kill every Night, though. You win when the Dragons are all that left, or nothing can prevent the same; if you killed the Red Dragons, you win if all threats to the land are eliminated.
You are a

Draconic Mafia Double-Agent.

Modnotes: Becomes Pro-Town Compulsive Vig. Role reveal does not change.

MIXOLOGIST

You are the Red Dragons, the powerful and strong breed of Dragons. You can’t stand being repressed by all the other races, though, and are going to strike back. You’ve formed the

Draconic Mafia

with the Gold Dragons (ORTOLAN). Each Night, one of you may submit a kill, and you may talk with your partner here. You’ve become worried that the Gold Dragons might ruin everything, though, since they are good, and so if you submit the kill for your faction, you may choose to target them. If you kill them, you will then look to command this land by yourself. You won’t worry about anyone but yourself, though, so you’ll go into hiding; no one can follow you, investigate you, and you can’t die in any way. If you kill the Gold Dragons, you win if you are all that remains, or when nothing can prevent the same. Otherwise, you win if the Dragons Mafia controls the land, or nothing can prevent the same.
You are a

Draconic Mafia Traitor.

Modnote: Becomes an SK. Only Night Action that effects the SK-Dragon is the spellcasting. Role reveal does not change.

EMPKING

You are the Orcs, the green-skinned humanoids with a bad reputation. You do have the land’s best interests at heart, though, you don’t want anyone controlling this land and bossing you around. You know the Half-Orcs (ANDYCYCA) are also trying to remove the threat, and you may talk to them every Night here. You win if all threats to the land are eliminated.
You are an

Pro-Town Orcblood Mason.

ANDYCYCA

You are the Half-Orcs, the descendents of the Orcs. You want to believe they have the land’s best interests at heart, but, well, they have a very hazy background. Still, you don’t

think

they are trying to take over the land. You

do

share a language (and a bloodline) with the Orcs (EMPKING), though, so you can talk to them every Night here. You win if all threats to the Town are eliminated.
You are a

Pro-Town Orcblood Neighbour.

STARBUCK

You are the Dwarves, those short, beardy, and smelly underground folk. You can break out of jails like it’s nobody’s business, though, so it takes an extra vote for you to be lynched. But...back to your personal hygiene, or lack thereof. People tend not to listen to short bearded people as-is, but if they’re SMELLY – no chance. Your votes don’t count. Like I said, though, you’re good at this whole locks/jail thing, so if you place the hammer vote on someone, you’ll make damn sure they listen to you, whether they like it or not. I know your brain isn’t your best feature, so here’s a recap: it takes an extra vote for you to be lynched; your votes don’t count unless it’s a hammer vote. You win if all threats to the Town are eliminated.
You are a

Pro-Town Tough-Skinned Actor.

Modnote: Always shows up as 'Not Voting', unless its the end of day votecount, and he hammered, in which case he appears at the last vote on the wagon, as normal.

TONYMONTANA

You are the Giants. Really big. Really Strong. Really Dumb. So big you can’t die at Night. So strong you beat up anyone you see at Night. So dumb you can only use 50 words per post and can’t double post. Giants win when bad guys are gone.
You are

Good-Guy No-Die Really-Dumb Beater-Upper.

Modnotes: Anyone who targets him get blocked, and 'beat up'. Daybreak scene includes that anyone who is 'beat up' has suffered severe injuries. They do not know it, but they take one less vote to be lynched that Day.

ORANGEPENGUIN

You are the Humans. You’re basically the average, middle of the road, people. No amazing powers, but you’re not hampered by any nasty Achilles’ Heels (despite the fact that Achilles was, indeed, a human, ironically), either. It is strongly recommended that you get 8-10 hours of sleep every Night, anyways, so it’s just as well that you can’t do anything else at Night. Oh, that’s right, I almost forgot: since there’s about twice as many of you as there are other races, you get two votes. If you don’t specify who you are unvoting, you will be assumed to be unvoting everyone. You win if all threats to the Town are eliminated.
You are a

Pro-Town Double-Voter.

SUDO_NYM

You are the Werewolves, those vicious and bloodthirsty fiends. You like biting people at the full moon, of course, and so you do. On every full moon, you must send in a choice of someone you will attempt to bite, and they will suffer irreversible damage. It will stop them from voting, from doing anything they might have wanted to do at Night, but they can still talk as much as they want. Hmmm...I keep thinking I’m forgetting to mention something...oh, right! There’s a full moon every Night! You win if all threats to the Town are eliminated.
You are a

Pro-Town Stumper.

Modnotes: Daybreak scene tells everyone that anyone stumped overnight shows all the signs of having been bitten by a werewolf overnight, and so they lose their democratic right, and are basically no longer considered members of the land, so they count as being dead for all purposes, except that they can talk. They cannot be targetted at all by Night actions.

ALSARK

You are the Blast-Ended Skrewts. You...ummm...well you have a very hard outer shell, a softer belly, a stinger, and a blaster. Oh, and you can tell exactly what anyone’s motivations are by spending the Night checking out their place. That’s right, every Night you can target someone, and you will find out exactly whether they are “Town”, “Scum”, or you will get “No Result”. If you do get a reading of their true colours, you know you are never wrong, though. You win if all threats to the Town are eliminated.
You are a

Pro-Town Cop.

Modnotes: Sane Cop. Gets "No Result" on Vampires and Giants. "Scum" on Dragons or Elves. Town on everyone else. Exception is "No Result" on Red Dragons that went rogue.

GOATREVOLT

You are the Vampires. You just want to make it through this mess alive, which shouldn’t be all that hard, given that the only ways to kill you involve Holy Wafers, Wooden Stakes, and Garlicy Garlic. Unfortunately for you, however, you are required to carry all 3 on you (in clearly marked bags) at all times, so it won’t actually be all that difficult for you to die, if you are lynched or otherwise killed – ain’t life a bitch? Well, you win if you

do

manage to get through all of this mess alive.
You are a

Neutral Survivor.

Modnotes: The Dragons as a team get a 1-shot NK-Immunity, which is voided if either Dragon kills his teammate.

[Vi]

Excessive use of mod notes is also considered bastard modding IMO. For instance, a pro-Town Vig that is revealed as Draconic

Mafia

Double-Agent will normally get people to pay more attention to the "Mafia" than "Double-Agent".

Not telling people that they take one less vote to lynch is also pretty evil, because it makes accidental lynches easier to make.

Technically, you never lied, but you still pulled strings that made things unexplainably evil.

[Danix]

Updated Bastard Mod article in the Mafiawiki based on your post SensFan

[VP Baltar]

I think there is a lot of implications of lying in the setup, even though you didn't do it directly. I wouldn't call it bastardish per se, but I think you were intentionally testing the boundaries of that and you shouldn't be surprised if the people who lost this game would complain.

I'm also guessing the dragons didn't win this game.

[ChannelDelibird]

We didn't, VP, but only because the Elves decided to take all the anti-town factions down with them.

As I've discussed with Sens, I did think this was a bastard setup. I enjoyed it, though.

[VP Baltar]

Did one of you kill the other, CDB?

[ChannelDelibird]

I, the last dragon, killed the last elf because I had to in order to be able to win outright (or so I thought). Shadow Knight, the last elf, killed the Vampires even though that gave him no chance to win whatsoever. The only choice he had that could have given him any chance of winning was not killing anyone, but the Vampire kill screwed everyone over.

I'm not bitter.

[forbiddanlight]

Modnotes: Becomes Pro-Town Compulsive Vig. Role reveal does not change.

Well, that'd technically make his flip a lie right thar

Modnote: Becomes an SK. Only Night Action that effects the SK-Dragon is the spellcasting. Role reveal does not change.

That as well. But, have an informed minority that is encouraged to work against itself does seem imbalanced

You also have a lot of anti-town "pro town" roles. It's not a nice set up, for sure.

[ortolan]

Did one of you kill the other, CDB?

No we didn't double-cross one another. I actually told CDB about that part of my role PM because I didn't want to use it and because it implied there was definitely another scum faction. He said he would have double-crossed me but I got lynched day two after being investigated.

The main reason I thought it was a bastard setup wasn't anything to do with lying it was just the double-cross ability the dragon mafia had which potentially punishes people for playing to their win-con.

It is different to say, that other discussion about killing your buddy because if your buddy double-crosses you, you cannot win anymore in both cases.

[VP Baltar]

Did one of you kill the other, CDB?

No we didn't double-cross one another. I actually told CDB about that part of my role PM because I didn't want to use it and because it implied there was definitely another scum faction. He said he would have double-crossed me but I got lynched day two after being investigated.

The main reason I thought it was a bastard setup wasn't anything to do with lying it was just the double-cross ability the dragon mafia had which potentially punishes people for playing to their win-con.

It is different to say, that other discussion about killing your buddy because if your buddy double-crosses you, you cannot win anymore in both cases.

Yeah, the worst case scenario for the dragons (both doublecross on the same night) is indeed bastard-ish and gives what I see as an unfair advantage to the other factions. It didn't happen, and would be unlikely, but if it had it wouldn't have exactly been fair.

[animorpherv1]

WHAT? I don't get a role named after me?
(as long as it isn't a 1 shpt or vanilla townie, I'm fine)

This setup is fail untill then.

[Goatrevolt]

I, the last dragon, killed the last elf because I had to in order to be able to win outright (or so I thought). Shadow Knight, the last elf, killed the Vampires even though that gave him no chance to win whatsoever. The only choice he had that could have given him any chance of winning was not killing anyone, but the Vampire kill screwed everyone over.

I'm not bitter.

I certainly am! Dragons + Vampires would have won together. Sexy.

I thought the draconic team was pretty bastard moddish. Ortolan or CDB could have lost simply because their scum buddy decided they wanted more power or to play it a different way. I think it's bastardish to give someone a role where they can lose basically on the whim of someone else who is told exactly what they are.

Also, this isn't bastard modding persay, but kind of annoying that I was effectively the only vanilla in the game as a neutral survivor. I was both the weakest player in the game because I had no abilities, on my own team with no protection and two killing factions, and couldn't even claim Vanilla because OP knew he was the only vanilla in the game (despite him being a double voter!). I was planning to claim bulletproof to keep me alive, but I couldn't claim that either because there was an actual bulletproof. The game played out in my favor with OP dying before he announced his "I'm the only vanilla" claim, but it was pretty much a huge uphill battle for me from the beginning.

[Herodotus]

you can’t die in any way

implies that the red dragon becomes unlynchable.

Nothing wrong with a mason/neighbor pair, though.

[Yosarian2]

Any setup that contains a survivor is bad. [/runningcrusade]

Seriously though, no, it's not a "bastard set up" (although I wish people would stop using that term in a negitive sense).

If I was reviewing the setup, I would suggest a mod PM telling anyone who was beaten up that they'd need one less vote to get lynched that day, or else put that information into the "giant" role PM, or both; having someone just unexpectedly get lynched at L-1 with no warning to anyone beforehand seems to just add randomness to the game.

Nothing else I really have a problem with. I am curious about what you were trying to do with the mason/neighbor pair.

[Empking]

Would the Double Agent who turned into a compulsive vig still flip

red?

If only the dragons remained with town, what stops the gold dragon killing the red and automatically winning?